Singapore to acquire Leopard 2A4s

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There are a few misconceptions about tanks, their design and their use which is often misused to support one view or another. One such misuse is the "we used tanks in Vietnam" argument.

A tank is just a vehicle. It can go a lot of places a truck can. Tanks have been used in the mountains, and in the jungle, in deserts and in the arctic. Anyone who has seen the state of the soil in spring or autumn in Ukraine would know that any thank that can go through that, can go anywhere. On the other hand in the summer some soils in the south-east of Ukraine become concrete-like, and can destroy tracks much faster then ‘normal’ soils in (for example) Germany.

The big problem with tanks used on water saturated soils is not how heavy they are (as already pointed out), but how many there are, and how fast they are moving. The tanks used in Vietnam were rarely if ever used in numbers larger then a company, and they rarely moved at speeds faster then 25km/h because more tanks then that moving faster would just tear up an unimproved road surface, which is how tanks get to their tactical area, to make it impossible for use by any other vehicles, including lighter AFVs. That is the reason NATO tanks wear rubber shoes, and Soviet Union build all those reinforced roads heading west. For a developing country to use Western tanks in the same way, they would need to invest in significant road improvement projects in likely areas of operation.

It’s interesting that the Soviet Union supplied Vietnam with T-55s well before the first M-48 arrived in Vietnam, so it seems they had no issues with using tanks in Vietnam. However their lighter tanks are able to move faster over unimproved road surfaces even without rubber feet by using wider tracks since the time of the T-34 design.
By the way to move from rice paddy to rice paddy the tank needs to go over the separating dyke, and that can expose its underbelly, never mind that its hard work for the engine when there is not much of a grip to push the tank over (except in wet season when the things just disintegrate and the tracks fill with the muck).

Besides this, the terrain in SE Asia is varied. It’s not all rice paddies, and it’s not all jungle as some like to stereotype. Neither is Europe all 'tank country', whatever that is.
This is the argument behind design of Soviet tanks. Having a really long range gun is great, but average engagement distances don't warrant anything over 2500m at most, and in SE Asia this would be significantly more reduced. The issue in tank design is not only a balance of speed, armour and gun (penetration over range), but also ACQUISITION and above all the CREW. As I was reminded by a tanker, “if you can’t see ‘em, you can’t hit ‘em”.

There are other differences in design approach to Soviet tanks. One is that small is good so far as acquisition is concerned. Given the ambient terrain undulation anywhere, the Soviet design is less likely to present a viable target to ground units then a larger West European tank. For some comparisons this is as much as a 30% reduction.
The small size of the fighting compartment is not a good argument either. In the East and West tank crews fought in Pz IIIS/IVs, T-34s and Shermans for years, even without air conditioners. Sure it’s nice to have all the comforts, but even air conditioner units break down. Is the crew going to just get out and walk because they can't keep the interior cool? And let’s not forget those tanks had four crewmen in there (not counting the driver).

Reduction of a crewman in the tank is a necessity of modern tanking also. The complexity of the modern tank (beginning in the 60s) is significantly greater then it was in the WW2-1950s generation of tanks, and requires more service personnel. While people argue that the extra crewman is not a hindrance/is a benefit, the M1 (or any West European tank for that instance) requires two service personnel (in addition to the crew) to keep the single vehicle operational (on average). This means that the actual number of M1 crew is 6 not 4. The Soviet designers faced same personnel problems from the T-64 design onwards and most developing countries do also, particularly the larger forces like China and India. In a fleet of 4000 vehicles, this reduces training by six battalions! Now consider Soviet fleet of 27,000. To maintain tank fleets one need to employ not just the tank crews, but support staff also. For Australia's 236 crew of the 59 M1s, the Army also needs 118 electronics and 118 mechanical trades as a minimum.

Singapore also has this problem because it has an economy running at high efficiency (so there is very little spare labour force for recruiting, as is in Australia), and I suspect that the purchase of 30 'spare' Leo2s is not because they like to have 30 spare tanks sitting around, but because they know that realistically they have no hope in hell of finding crews and support staff to maintain them operationally. Australians are just more realistic IMHO. There is another thread on this, but I would suggest that recruiting 2,600 extra service personnel will not produce 500 tankers (and I include armour service personnel in the term because without them the units just don’t function).

This is the real reason Soviet tank designs have been popular with developing countries where personnel with appropriate education are hard to find. Besides that, they are just cheaper to produce even in cost of metal alone by retaining lesser surface and volume thanks to innovative engineering. That is also part of tanking.

Cheers
Is it taking two support personnel on the Austrailian M1`s, U.S Army maintenance staff for company level maintenance team would be 6 mechanics for automotive related items and if your lucky two for turret support, you would also have a communications tech. Most American crewman know how to change engines, trannies, sprockets, tracks, roadwheel arms etc,etc and they are required to help out, it is their tank after all.

As far as having a 4 man crew, I`ll take it over a automatic loader, this is my preference, and we discussed some of the reasons why before. A auto loader is a preference with Asian militaries though and some of the reasons could be because of the average size of their crewman (no disrespect intended) and also because of the weight of the new combat tank rounds.

It`s good to hear from you Future Tank.:)
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There are a few misconceptions about tanks, their design and their use which is often misused to support one view or another. One such misuse is the "we used tanks in Vietnam" argument.

A tank is just a vehicle. It can go a lot of places a truck can. Tanks have been used in the mountains, and in the jungle, in deserts and in the arctic. Anyone who has seen the state of the soil in spring or autumn in Ukraine would know that any thank that can go through that, can go anywhere. On the other hand in the summer some soils in the south-east of Ukraine become concrete-like, and can destroy tracks much faster then ‘normal’ soils in (for example) Germany.

The big problem with tanks used on water saturated soils is not how heavy they are (as already pointed out), but how many there are, and how fast they are moving. The tanks used in Vietnam were rarely if ever used in numbers larger then a company, and they rarely moved at speeds faster then 25km/h because more tanks then that moving faster would just tear up an unimproved road surface, which is how tanks get to their tactical area, to make it impossible for use by any other vehicles, including lighter AFVs. That is the reason NATO tanks wear rubber shoes, and Soviet Union build all those reinforced roads heading west. For a developing country to use Western tanks in the same way, they would need to invest in significant road improvement projects in likely areas of operation.

It’s interesting that the Soviet Union supplied Vietnam with T-55s well before the first M-48 arrived in Vietnam, so it seems they had no issues with using tanks in Vietnam. However their lighter tanks are able to move faster over unimproved road surfaces even without rubber feet by using wider tracks since the time of the T-34 design.
By the way to move from rice paddy to rice paddy the tank needs to go over the separating dyke, and that can expose its underbelly, never mind that its hard work for the engine when there is not much of a grip to push the tank over (except in wet season when the things just disintegrate and the tracks fill with the muck).

Besides this, the terrain in SE Asia is varied. It’s not all rice paddies, and it’s not all jungle as some like to stereotype. Neither is Europe all 'tank country', whatever that is.
This is the argument behind design of Soviet tanks. Having a really long range gun is great, but average engagement distances don't warrant anything over 2500m at most, and in SE Asia this would be significantly more reduced. The issue in tank design is not only a balance of speed, armour and gun (penetration over range), but also ACQUISITION and above all the CREW. As I was reminded by a tanker, “if you can’t see ‘em, you can’t hit ‘em”.

There are other differences in design approach to Soviet tanks. One is that small is good so far as acquisition is concerned. Given the ambient terrain undulation anywhere, the Soviet design is less likely to present a viable target to ground units then a larger West European tank. For some comparisons this is as much as a 30% reduction.
The small size of the fighting compartment is not a good argument either. In the East and West tank crews fought in Pz IIIS/IVs, T-34s and Shermans for years, even without air conditioners. Sure it’s nice to have all the comforts, but even air conditioner units break down. Is the crew going to just get out and walk because they can't keep the interior cool? And let’s not forget those tanks had four crewmen in there (not counting the driver).

Reduction of a crewman in the tank is a necessity of modern tanking also. The complexity of the modern tank (beginning in the 60s) is significantly greater then it was in the WW2-1950s generation of tanks, and requires more service personnel. While people argue that the extra crewman is not a hindrance/is a benefit, the M1 (or any West European tank for that instance) requires two service personnel (in addition to the crew) to keep the single vehicle operational (on average). This means that the actual number of M1 crew is 6 not 4. The Soviet designers faced same personnel problems from the T-64 design onwards and most developing countries do also, particularly the larger forces like China and India. In a fleet of 4000 vehicles, this reduces training by six battalions! Now consider Soviet fleet of 27,000. To maintain tank fleets one need to employ not just the tank crews, but support staff also. For Australia's 236 crew of the 59 M1s, the Army also needs 118 electronics and 118 mechanical trades as a minimum.

Singapore also has this problem because it has an economy running at high efficiency (so there is very little spare labour force for recruiting, as is in Australia), and I suspect that the purchase of 30 'spare' Leo2s is not because they like to have 30 spare tanks sitting around, but because they know that realistically they have no hope in hell of finding crews and support staff to maintain them operationally. Australians are just more realistic IMHO. There is another thread on this, but I would suggest that recruiting 2,600 extra service personnel will not produce 500 tankers (and I include armour service personnel in the term because without them the units just don’t function).

This is the real reason Soviet tank designs have been popular with developing countries where personnel with appropriate education are hard to find. Besides that, they are just cheaper to produce even in cost of metal alone by retaining lesser surface and volume thanks to innovative engineering. That is also part of tanking.

Cheers
Why would we need another 500 tankies and support crew for 59 M1,s. ?We are not going to operate the Leopards as well, so the structure of 1armd regt should be able to cope with that.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Why would we need another 500 tankies and support crew for 59 M1,s. ?We are not going to operate the Leopards as well, so the structure of 1armd regt should be able to cope with that.
I was thinking in terms of increasing the numbers, but currently you are correct, and I doubt there will be very many vacancies in 1AR.

It would be quite a transition to go from Leopard to M1 :)
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I was thinking in terms of increasing the numbers, but currently you are correct, and I doubt there will be very many vacancies in 1AR.

It would be quite a transition to go from Leopard to M1 :)
You bet, i live in darwin, and i know that the black hats are licking their lips!!;)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I was a bit busy eckherl. Actually had an occasion to ask another master gunner about introduction of M1s into service (he was with 1st Armored Training Brigade, and also 3ID in Europe). Its surprisingly difficult to find out which units were issued M1 in the 1980-84 period.

Is it taking two support personnel on the Austrailian M1`s, U.S Army maintenance staff for company level maintenance team would be 6 mechanics for automotive related items and if your lucky two for turret support, you would also have a communications tech. Most American crewman know how to change engines, trannies, sprockets, tracks, roadwheel arms etc,etc and they are required to help out, it is their tank after all
I think what you are talking about is crew level support. I had unit, and formation echelon support in mind. When you look at all the personnel at battalion, brigade and division, and add the Corps level, and all the contractors into the pot, what one comes up with is 2 extra people per tank. I was given the calculation by someone from US, but don't have the access to the figures myself.

As far as having a 4 man crew, I`ll take it over a automatic loader, this is my preference, and we discussed some of the reasons why before. A auto loader is a preference with Asian militaries though and some of the reasons could be because of the average size of their crewman (no disrespect intended) and also because of the weight of the new combat tank rounds.
I'm not sure the size of crew has much to do with it. I have seen photos of fairly average sized crew in Russia, and there is height requirement for most jobs in most armies. I remember reading about one guy in Vietnam who transferred into Air Cav, and people remarking that in US or Europe he would never have made it because of height restrictions.
However size of round is a very valid argument. Russians had this expereince in WW2 with the 122mm and 152mm rounds, and they realised that even within the relatively ample space of their heavy tanks c.1950s the 122mm weapon was too difficult to handle for the crew. There is a misconception about what led to the autoloader design. It was not a change in design of the Medium tanks like T-55 or T-62, but the realisation that the T-10 heavy tank was inefficient. The same was realised in NATO also, but the designs remained conventional. I think the reasons were commercial more so then anything else. There is no such thing as "more bang for the bucks". If the armies wanted more bang, they had to pay.
On the other hand look at the navies. They have been using fully automatic loaders (no crew!) for decades because the gun systems in naval vessels are not high commercial earners for contractors. The US Navy Mark 54 5" (127mm) can fire off 20 rounds in a minute with very respectable precision. Sure the mounting weighs 22 ton, but I'm fairly confident that US engineers could have designed an automatic loader for M1 if they were asked to do so. Instead the Army went with a conventional heavy tank design.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I was a bit busy eckherl. Actually had an occasion to ask another master gunner about introduction of M1s into service (he was with 1st Armored Training Brigade, and also 3ID in Europe). Its surprisingly difficult to find out which units were issued M1 in the 1980-84 period.


I think what you are talking about is crew level support. I had unit, and formation echelon support in mind. When you look at all the personnel at battalion, brigade and division, and add the Corps level, and all the contractors into the pot, what one comes up with is 2 extra people per tank. I was given the calculation by someone from US, but don't have the access to the figures myself.


I'm not sure the size of crew has much to do with it. I have seen photos of fairly average sized crew in Russia, and there is height requirement for most jobs in most armies. I remember reading about one guy in Vietnam who transferred into Air Cav, and people remarking that in US or Europe he would never have made it because of height restrictions.
However size of round is a very valid argument. Russians had this expereince in WW2 with the 122mm and 152mm rounds, and they realised that even within the relatively ample space of their heavy tanks c.1950s the 122mm weapon was too difficult to handle for the crew. There is a misconception about what led to the autoloader design. It was not a change in design of the Medium tanks like T-55 or T-62, but the realisation that the T-10 heavy tank was inefficient. The same was realised in NATO also, but the designs remained conventional. I think the reasons were commercial more so then anything else. There is no such thing as "more bang for the bucks". If the armies wanted more bang, they had to pay.
On the other hand look at the navies. They have been using fully automatic loaders (no crew!) for decades because the gun systems in naval vessels are not high commercial earners for contractors. The US Navy Mark 54 5" (127mm) can fire off 20 rounds in a minute with very respectable precision. Sure the mounting weighs 22 ton, but I'm fairly confident that US engineers could have designed an automatic loader for M1 if they were asked to do so. Instead the Army went with a conventional heavy tank design.
I know that the 3rd ID had some battalions of M1`s around 1982, I served with the 3/7th cav (Gary Owens) in schwienfurt Germany in that time frame. I believe 3/64th armored battalion may be one of them. I had to settle for the M60A1:( let me do some digging.

I don`t know if I would ever want to go to a auto loader, I still believe that a human loader will out perform the auto, also I have had the great experience of throwing tank tracks replacing roadwheels and it`s great having that extra muscle around, plus it is good for security and to have a extra set of eyes on the battlefield, this all may change though in the future with research and designs of 140mm guns, it is going to get to a point that the rounds are too big and heavy. I was informed that the 152mm that Russia was testing had a tank munition length at around 2 meters. That`s a hefty bullet if it`s true.:)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I know that the 3rd ID had some battalions of M1`s around 1982, I served with the 3/7th cav (Gary Owens) in Schweinfurt Germany in that time frame. I believe 3/64th armored battalion may be one of them. I had to settle for the M60A1:( let me do some digging.

I don’t know if I would ever want to go to a auto loader, I still believe that a human loader will out perform the auto, also I have had the great experience of throwing tank tracks replacing road wheels and it’s great having that extra muscle around, plus it is good for security and to have a extra set of eyes on the battlefield, this all may change though in the future with research and designs of 140mm guns, it is going to get to a point that the rounds are too big and heavy. I was informed that the 152mm that Russia was testing had a tank munitions length at around 2 meters. That’s a hefty bullet if it’s true.:)
Yes, you are correct. Three battalions of the 64th Armor regiment were the first to receive M1 in March 82m although this is academic because transition was based on divisional issue.

Yes, extra set of eyes and hands is always good; however any tank that throws a track in modern battle is not going to survive a track change :(
IMHO the current gun size is a maximum valid solid round. Anything larger is artillery. Nor are the engines going to be made larger given the fuel situation. It seems to me the next generation of tank design is going to look elsewhere for battle success. It seems to me the Soviet designers realised this long ago and have been trying to maintain lower weight to boost manoeuvrability. This is true with the T-90, but the proposed next generation of Russian tank has almost no turret to speak of.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, you are correct. Three battalions of the 64th Armor regiment were the first to receive M1 in March 82m although this is academic because transition was based on divisional issue.

Yes, extra set of eyes and hands is always good; however any tank that throws a track in modern battle is not going to survive a track change :(
IMHO the current gun size is a maximum valid solid round. Anything larger is artillery. Nor are the engines going to be made larger given the fuel situation. It seems to me the next generation of tank design is going to look elsewhere for battle success. It seems to me the Soviet designers realised this long ago and have been trying to maintain lower weight to boost manoeuvrability. This is true with the T-90, but the proposed next generation of Russian tank has almost no turret to speak of.
Our future tank basically is designed along the same lines Russia has experienced with, less weight, every crewmember located in the hull, all you will see above the hull is a gun tube and sighting system. I am placing my wager that Russia will go with a 135mm, we will go with a 140mm, thus needing a auto loader because of weight issues.

You did bring up a interesting issue with vehicle weight and road designs, they will definetly have to beef them up for this type of vehicle driving on them, even U.S roads are not designed for heavy armor vehicles.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Our future tank basically is designed along the same lines Russia has experienced with, less weight, every crewmember located in the hull, all you will see above the hull is a gun tube and sighting system. I am placing my wager that Russia will go with a 135mm, we will go with a 140mm, thus needing a auto loader because of weight issues.

You did bring up a interesting issue with vehicle weight and road designs, they will definetly have to beef them up for this type of vehicle driving on them, even U.S roads are not designed for heavy armor vehicles.
I'm not thinking which is better, but what would work. I doubt there will be larger guns, or the need for them. If the target is a turreted tank, there is no need for anything larger then now, and if the target has no turret, a larger gun will not help anyway.
The Russian tanks are now called rocket-gun tanks (RGT) and not MBT, because to them top attack is what the natural progression in design needs to address, and it can't be addressed with direct fire. Of course by 'rocket' they mean gun-launched guided missile, and these are still very expensive to produce 20 years on, but I suspect technology will take care of itself. It does make it interesting for gunners though, with a whole different engagement range of parameters to their weapon.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm not thinking which is better, but what would work. I doubt there will be larger guns, or the need for them. If the target is a turreted tank, there is no need for anything larger then now, and if the target has no turret, a larger gun will not help anyway.
The Russian tanks are now called rocket-gun tanks (RGT) and not MBT, because to them top attack is what the natural progression in design needs to address, and it can't be addressed with direct fire. Of course by 'rocket' they mean gun-launched guided missile, and these are still very expensive to produce 20 years on, but I suspect technology will take care of itself. It does make it interesting for gunners though, with a whole different engagement range of parameters to their weapon.
What ever the plan is, it will be interesting in the future on what paths are followed for armor technology.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
There are a few misconceptions about tanks, their design and their use which is often misused to support one view or another. One such misuse is the "we used tanks in Vietnam" argument.

A tank is just a vehicle. It can go a lot of places a truck can. Tanks have been used in the mountains, and in the jungle, in deserts and in the arctic. Anyone who has seen the state of the soil in spring or autumn in Ukraine would know that any thank that can go through that, can go anywhere. On the other hand in the summer some soils in the south-east of Ukraine become concrete-like, and can destroy tracks much faster then ‘normal’ soils in (for example) Germany.

The big problem with tanks used on water saturated soils is not how heavy they are (as already pointed out), but how many there are, and how fast they are moving. The tanks used in Vietnam were rarely if ever used in numbers larger then a company, and they rarely moved at speeds faster then 25km/h because more tanks then that moving faster would just tear up an unimproved road surface, which is how tanks get to their tactical area, to make it impossible for use by any other vehicles, including lighter AFVs. That is the reason NATO tanks wear rubber shoes, and Soviet Union build all those reinforced roads heading west. For a developing country to use Western tanks in the same way, they would need to invest in significant road improvement projects in likely areas of operation.
We NEVER used more than a Squadron of tanks in Vietnam, as a Squadron was ALL we ever deployed. Significant battles by Australian force were unlikely to EVER see more than a troop of tanks deployed. Binh Ba is so celebrated a) because it was a large, decisive victory for the Australian forces and b) (IMHO) because (i) it saw the employment of tanks in a battle in greater than troop level and (ii) it saw the re-inforcement of a tank troop AFTER our tanks had suffered significant (in terms of the battle) losses BY anti-armour weapons.

I agree that road transport is the primary means of transport for tracked vehicles. But it is certainly not the ONLY way. Nor is it often the "most likely" way in an operational environment. It is the most efficient means of moving heavy armour. It is not the most "tactical" means...

This is the real reason Soviet tank designs have been popular with developing countries where personnel with appropriate education are hard to find. Besides that, they are just cheaper to produce even in cost of metal alone by retaining lesser surface and volume thanks to innovative engineering. That is also part of tanking.

Cheers
They are also FAR less capable. What is cheaper in reality, 100 less well armoured tanks or 59 better armoured tanks?

I'll take the 59 thanks...
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
We NEVER used more than a Squadron of tanks in Vietnam, as a Squadron was ALL we ever deployed. Significant battles by Australian force were unlikely to EVER see more than a troop of tanks deployed.

I agree that road transport is the primary means of transport for tracked vehicles. But it is certainly not the ONLY way. Nor is it often the "most likely" way in an operational environment. It is the most efficient means of moving heavy armour. It is not the most "tactical" means...

They are also FAR less capable. What is cheaper in reality, 100 less well armoured tanks or 59 better armoured tanks?

I'll take the 59 thanks...
I wasn't there, but if you ask vets they will probably confirm the practicality of using the whole squadron operationally in Vietnam.
However during the Korean war Australian forces certainly could have employed larger numbers of tanks, and in larger tactical units then a troop.
How far more capable an M1 is, is yet to be shown IMHO. However in a tactical engagement as you suggest, where there is only a troop employed, and considering the enemy is using a combined arms approach, I would rather have a company then a platoon :)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I wasn't there, but if you ask vets they will probably confirm the practicality of using the whole squadron operationally in Vietnam.
Its interesting for me due to the fact that I had a long chat at brekky with one of the armoured blokes who toured Vn. I spoke to him after ANZAC day this year about the value of the Cents. He wholeheartedly supported the small numbers concept in RAAC tank deployment. Its what gave them extra mobility and capacity to react at short notice.

There is a parallel in the way that RAAC used tanks in Vn and the US use of tanks in the Thunder Run. ie a small armoured column was able to rapidly traverse and penetrate at speed and thus have more impact. A larger squadron sized deployment would have bought its own impediments (logistics, length of column, enemies capacity to slow the tail enders and thus influence the speed of the lead tanks etc....) In both examples, naysayers predicted the demise of the tank, ie, Tanks are useless in jungle warfare (rubbish), tanks are sitting ducks in FIBUA (rubbish). They then use examples of the misuse of tanks as supporting the premise (eg Russians in Chechnya)

The use of tanks by Aust is actually very indicative of Oz armies mindset all up in Vn - ie tactical mobility, fast and heavy, tight support, self sufficiency of the group.

The use of a full squadron on ops would have changed the pace and tempo and IMV would have been far less useful as it would have meant travelling down the traditional massed armour approach.

The very reason why RAAC was successful and rewrote the use of Tanks in jungle warfare was because they didn't subscribe to massed armour deployment.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Its interesting for me due to the fact that I had a long chat at brekky with one of the armoured blokes who toured Vn. I spoke to him after ANZAC day this year about the value of the Cents. He wholeheartedly supported the small numbers concept in RAAC tank deployment. Its what gave them extra mobility and capacity to react at short notice.

There is a parallel in the way that RAAC used tanks in Vn and the US use of tanks in the Thunder Run. ie a small armoured column was able to rapidly traverse and penetrate at speed and thus have more impact. A larger squadron sized deployment would have bought its own impediments (logistics, length of column, enemies capacity to slow the tail enders and thus influence the speed of the lead tanks etc....) In both examples, naysayers predicted the demise of the tank, ie, Tanks are useless in jungle warfare (rubbish), tanks are sitting ducks in FIBUA (rubbish). They then use examples of the misuse of tanks as supporting the premise (eg Russians in Chechnya)

The use of tanks by Aust is actually very indicative of Oz armies mindset all up in Vn - ie tactical mobility, fast and heavy, tight support, self sufficiency of the group.

The use of a full squadron on ops would have changed the pace and tempo and IMV would have been far less useful as it would have meant travelling down the traditional massed armour approach.

The very reason why RAAC was successful and rewrote the use of Tanks in jungle warfare was because they didn't subscribe to massed armour deployment.
Yep, exactly what I meant. I believe the tanks used at the end of the war in Pacific were also used in troops (actually I think they were platoons from one-time Army tank battalions?)
This is what I was asking....What in the World does Singapore need 96 Leo2s for? :confused:
Don't they train with ADF?
 

Lonewolf

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Our Sm1's ( amx 13's ) is getting abit old 50yrs +, so its time to upgrade thats why Leopards " good choice in my personal opinion" .

We do have enough crew for all the tanks and then some, if you include the reservist we only have 3 active armour units and about 6 - 8 (if not more) reservist units.

Autoloaders or manual loading each has its own pros and cons, but in my opinion we ( SAF) has been operating with autoloaders for so long, and also with our shortage of manpower and asian phisque, I think SAF will go with auto instead of manual, ( if it is possible ).

Tanks in malaysia, the british also thought our terrain is not condusive to tank warfare, but the Japs proved them wrong. ( I know different weight class etc.. but please remember that we have much more roads not then we did then)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Our Sm1's ( amx 13's ) is getting abit old 50yrs +, so its time to upgrade thats why Leopards " good choice in my personal opinion" .

We do have enough crew for all the tanks and then some, if you include the reservist we only have 3 active armour units and about 6 - 8 (if not more) reservist units.

Autoloaders or manual loading each has its own pros and cons, but in my opinion we ( SAF) has been operating with autoloaders for so long, and also with our shortage of manpower and asian phisque, I think SAF will go with auto instead of manual, ( if it is possible ).

Tanks in malaysia, the british also thought our terrain is not condusive to tank warfare, but the Japs proved them wrong. ( I know different weight class etc.. but please remember that we have much more roads not then we did then)
Do you know if they will be upgraded at a later time to LEO2 A5 or A6 standard.
 

Lonewolf

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think so, unless malaysia upgrades theirs to T90 or some thing, with the leopards, and the merkava's ( if the rumours are correct ) Spore will have the best equiped amoured force in asean if not asia, apart from Jap, china and Aus .
 

tankee1981

New Member
ASIA PACIFIC

Date Posted: 15-Dec-2006


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - DECEMBER 20, 2006
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Singapore to get Leopard 2 MBTs
Christopher F Foss Janes's Land Forces Contributing Editor
London

The Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) and the German Federal Ministry of Defence are expected to sign an agreement in early 2007 covering the supply of 96 ex-German Armed Forces Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks (MBTs) for the SAF.

KMW is expected to refurbish 66 of the MBTs before delivery to the SAF, with the remaining 30 earmarked as spare vehicles.

In addition to KMW, other German defence contractors are expected to be involved in the programme, including Rheinmetall.

A training package is expected to form part of the deal along with ammunition and logistics support. No details of a delivery schedule have been revealed at this stage but it is considered to be from 2008 onwards.

The SAF currently operates a fleet of between 80 and 100 Centurion MBTs, which were supplied by at least two countries. Known locally as 'Tempest' MBTs, these have been upgraded a number of times and now feature a 105 mm gun, new computerised fire-control system, new diesel powerpack and possibly explosive reactive armour.

Up to 350 AMX-13 light tanks are also in SAF service and these have been upgraded under the leadership of Singapore Technologies Kinetics. In the key areas of armour, mobility and firepower, the AMX-13 is in urgent need of replacement.

It has been assumed that Singapore has been developing a new direct-fire weapon/light tank for some years. The acquisition of the 120 mm armed Leopard 2A4 will provide an interim capability as well as a growth path for further potential upgrades to the Leopard 2A5/A6 standard if required.
The above article is from Janes. Judging from SAF's past experience they almost always upgrade whatever 2nd hand equipment which they bought. Examples are the Challenger submarines, AMX-13SM1, M113 Ultra etc. We have both the political will and the finances so its not much of a problem.
 

tankee1981

New Member
Lahat for Leopard 2 tanks
IAI/MBT Missiles Division and Rheinmetall Defence have joined forces to offer an upgrade kit for Leopard 1/2 main battle tanks featuring a gun-launched laser homing weapon system (Lahat).

Lahat is a laser homing tank-launched missile packaged in a standard tank round cartridge. It can thus be launched from a 105 mm gun or from a 120 mm gun using a sabot. As a tank-launched weapon, Lahat gives MBTs an important new capability, enabling first-shot kills of armoured targets at ranges over 6 km using internal or external designation.

It also provides new capabilities in challenging scenarios such as combat in open areas as well as in as urban warfare, using indirect firing with external designation.

The missile system passed a successful live-fire demonstration in Meppen, Germany, last year. During the demonstration the Lahat missiles were launched from the gun of a Leopard 2-A4 tank. One missile was fired against a stationary tank; the second missile was fired against a moving tank driven by remote control. Both targets were located about 4 km from the launching tank, and both missiles scored direct hits, within 30 cm from the centre of the laser designation spot.
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?fid=3902&lang=3

Given Singapore's close military ties with Israel, it is very likely for Singapore's future Leo2A4 to be equipped with the Lahat missiles. :D
 
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