Iranian Patrol Boats:Sitting Ducks?

[Khairul Alam]

A major portion of the Iranian Navy is made up of missile patrol boats and fast attack crafs (FAC). These include the Chinese Hudong, the legacy Combattante II, the North Korean Chaho, and many others. Almost all of them are described as capable of carrying the infamous CS-801 and 802s.
I would like to know what sort of air-defences and electronic countermeasures these ships employ. Do they have dedicated missile systems, manpads, or just AAAs?

 

[Big-E]

I think all the Chinese boats only have AAA, when they developed these they only had the most basic missle defense on DDGs. The Iranians could certainly carry some MANPADs on board. As far as ECM I doubt if they have any. These boats are pretty basic.

 

[Galrahn]

Very short ranged AAA and man portable air defenses only.

In exercises Iran fields their air force for air defense. It is very unlikely if Iran was to ever go to war that the Iranian air force would be bombed on the ground like the Iraqi's were.

 

[Big-E]

In exercises Iran fields their air force for air defense. It is very unlikely if Iran was to ever go to war that the Iranian air force would be bombed on the ground like the Iraqi's were.

What are we talking about... Navy right?

 

[alexsa]

A major portion of the Iranian Navy is made up of missile patrol boats and fast attack crafs (FAC). These include the Chinese Hudong, the legacy Combattante II, the North Korean Chaho, and many others. Almost all of them are described as capable of carrying the infamous CS-801 and 802s.
I would like to know what sort of air-defences and electronic countermeasures these ships employ. Do they have dedicated missile systems, manpads, or just AAAs?

They still have three Vosper Mk 5 frigates. It was 4 but the US sank one in April 1988. These were armed with guns (one 4.5" and one twin 20mm) and Sea killer SSM's. The latter are obselete if they are still operational.

 

[Big-E]

They still have three Vosper Mk 5 frigates. It was 4 but the US sank one in April 1988. These were armed with guns (one 4.5" and one twin 20mm) and Sea killer SSM's. The latter are obselete if they are still operational.

I heard they are almost done rebuilding the one lost in Praying Mantis.

 

[Grand Danois]

It is very unlikely if Iran was to ever go to war that the Iranian air force would be bombed on the ground like the Iraqi's were.

That would make sense for just about any foe of Iran but the US. It would just make it very easy to check the boxes in a confident way for the US. I.e. "we know we shot this F-14 and that MiG-29 down", as opposed to "did we hit a decoy or maybe a inoperational fighter with that bomb?" And it would be quick.

 

[gf0012-aust]

What are we talking about... Navy right?

I think you'll find that Galrahn is referring to the fact that they will be in range of land based air - so it can't be excluded as a discrete entity.

 

[Big-E]

I think you'll find that Galrahn is referring to the fact that they will be in range of land based air - so it can't be excluded as a discrete entity.

It is rather interesting to note that the only airfield within support of their major naval base at Bandar Abbas has only two squadrons of outdated F-4s. Given the changing situation you think they would move air support form the Iraqi border to the Straight of Hormuz. Right now their fleet is a siting duck for any Gulf power that feels like sinking it.

 

[contedicavour]

The Iranian boats would primarily try hit and run missions to sink tankers and lightly defended foreign military ships, before being sunk by SSMs or SAMs. It's almost a suicide mission, so no need to try to install sophisticated ECMs since the ships will be swamped by air and sea attacks the minute they leave their national waters.
Iranian ships could also be used to lay mines, though probably before the outbreak of a war, so it would be very difficult to attack them in times of peace.

cheers

 

[Khairul Alam]

The Iranian boats would primarily try hit and run missions to sink tankers and lightly defended foreign military ships, before being sunk by SSMs or SAMs.
cheers

This is exactly why the boats need ECM and air-defence systems. No sensible military force would send their millions of dollars worth ships to suicidal missions. Either the Iranians are foolish enough to have discounted the West's air-power or they have something more sinister in mind.

 

[contedicavour]

This is exactly why the boats need ECM and air-defence systems. No sensible military force would send their millions of dollars worth ships to suicidal missions. Either the Iranians are foolish enough to have discounted the West's air-power or they have something more sinister in mind.

IMHO the ships are designed for almost suicidal missions... besides, even if you planned on adding ECM and SAMs, there's not much you can put on old Combattante II or Chinese copies of Osa or even older FACs. The 3 corvettes (4 with the one almost completed) could have more space for better systems, but with Western systems not accessible, the best Iran could do is put Kashtan CIWS, since intrusive VLS such as SA-N-9 are too bulky for 90-metre ships of 1970s vintage and 1960s design.
Cost wise, Iran probably also prefers to have tens of cheap small FAC(M)s rather than half a dozen larger FAC(M)s with good SAM and ECM, which would still be wiped out the moment the USN decided to.

cheers

 

[Galrahn]

It is rather interesting to note that the only airfield within support of their major naval base at Bandar Abbas has only two squadrons of outdated F-4s. Given the changing situation you think they would move air support form the Iraqi border to the Straight of Hormuz. Right now their fleet is a siting duck for any Gulf power that feels like sinking it.

True, but that is a mixed blessing.

There are larger numbers of assets for Iranian air power strategically placed to strike the most important assets in the region, specifically the oil terminals in the Gulf. In other words, if the Iranian small boat navy was operating in the Strait then it wouldn't have much defense against air power, but if it was operating within the Persian Gulf, it would have significantly more fighter cover to draw upon.

I tend to agree with you though, except that the only real Gulf power is Saudi Arabia and they may not be able to do it considering the straits are not really near any of their main bases either. The US has monitored Iranian Naval exercises and from what I understand, one of the main reasons the US Navy is looking to build a JOINT STARS Naval aircraft in the near future is because from a JOINT STARS perspective, an Iranian Naval exercise with all those small attack boats looks a lot like an Iraqi Armored division rolling through the desert during Gulf War I.

If that is true, that implies to me the Iranian small boat naval threat is basically a "Highway of Death" scenario waiting to happen.

Whether the Iranian Navy is intended to be suicide boats or mission specific operators, the real threat of the Iranian navy isn't their ships or their submarines, it is their mines. While Iran has virtually nothing intimidating about most of their military hardware, they do have the 4th largest naval mine inventory in the world, and much of it is very sophisticated.

 

[radiosilence]

Do the Iranians have anything like Protector, the Israeli made unmanned naval patrol vehicle?

 

[Rich]

It looks to me the Iranians see the battle on water to be lost already and they dont want to put that many eggs into that particular basket. Their diesels are a concern but they only have a few of them and both their readiness, and the capability of the Iranian navy to fight them, are questionable. When I look at their recent naval expenditures I cant help but see a lack of enthusiasm to take on the USN in conventional sea warfare.

Of far more concern is their maritime strike assets like their SU-24s, F-4s, shore based anti-ship missiles, and strikes on important ports and assets with their ballistic missile force. They also hold several islands at the mouth of the Gulf and have militarized them to threaten shipping. Add mines to the mix and overall you have to respect the strategy behind the layering, redundancy, dispersal, and deployment of their scarce resources.

They can make an awful lot of trouble for us just by shutting down commercial shipping thru the waterway.

 

[Rich]

If you have Google Earth find Bandar Abbas. They have imagery that shows almost all of Irans major hulls in port.

 

[Khairul Alam]

Heard about the Shahab Thaqeb anyone? It's said to be a copy of the Chinese HQ-7, which in turn is a reverse-engineered Crotale. The Chinese had both the land and naval versions of the Crotale. Isnt it then possible for Iran to make a naval version of the Shahab Thaqeb and put it on their ships?

 

[POW]

Well they are getting TOR M-1 for AD over land which is a latest gen Russian SAM. They can easily buy naval sams and frigates etc from Russia but I think they have prioritized in a way that they have to focus on other important areas for various reasons. They did develop a much hyped early gen Skval torpedo for anti shipping. They did manufacture a twin tailed f-5 nfloorl: and they did manage to develop several ATGMS and their own MBT. So Its simply a matter of time when you will see their naval strength flourish. BUt US knows this and due to it being bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan they cannot really initiate anything in Iran currently. And for that same reason Iran is fuelling the insurgencies in both these places. Plus it is playing well diplomatically. Once it develops the nuclear weapons and delivery systems , it will have achieved a good defence:nutkick, then with the newly acquired AD battries it will shout even louder than this goat ANjad does today. Thats my 2cents . nfloorl:

 

[contedicavour]

Heard about the Shahab Thaqeb anyone? It's said to be a copy of the Chinese HQ-7, which in turn is a reverse-engineered Crotale. The Chinese had both the land and naval versions of the Crotale. Isnt it then possible for Iran to make a naval version of the Shahab Thaqeb and put it on their ships?

Possibly. It's a compact system that could fit on the Vosper light frigates, though not on the Combattante or Hegu FACs.

The smallest Russian radar-guided SAMs such as SA-N-4 Gecko or SA-N-9 are too big. So all that's feasible is Kashtan which is already a pretty good CIWS+IR SAM

cheers

 

[kilo]

I don't think iran is interested in fighting warships. they want to attack oil tankers with submarines, land based missiles, aircraft, and missile boats. They do need to incorporate more stealth features. Make them lower in the water, paint them black, give them them less bulkier hulls, and use radar absorbent materials in the construction and you will have a missile boat ideal for night attacks.