New Italian aircraft carrier ready to take the sea!!

[contedicavour]

Wow I've been away for a week (btw Merry Christmas to all even if late )and I'm very happy to see the enthousiasm our new flagship is generating !

A few comments vs the posts I've seen :

> The BPE vs Cavour argument : the 1st is a LHD while the 2nd is a light carrier for STOVL ... yes that's true, but it's logical that comparisons are made because the 2 ships will end up performing very similar tasks in the real life world, ie fleet flagship, providing air cover and running strike missions, leading amphibious task forces. The Cavour is better suited as an aircraft carrier because of size & speed, the Juan Carlos BPE will be better at pure amphibious missions because of the huge load capability. Luckily enough the 2 ships will act jointly as much as possible, so they will complement each other's weaknesses.

> F35s aboard : yes the Navy is only ordering 22 F35B, but the Air Force still hasn't decided whether to order its 109 in F35A or F35B versions or even a mix of them. Hopefully we'll thus have more than 22 F35B in the inventory. Btw, date for introduction is 2014.

> What about amphibious capabilities for the Italian Navy ? We're still expecting shortly an order for a big 20,000 tonne LPD or even potentially LHD resembling BPE. The MOD doesn't have the budget, so funding would come from the Italian Civilian Protection Agency. The plan roughly is to have 2 STOVL carriers and 2 or 3 big LPD/LHD (instead of today's 3 8,000 tonne relatively small LHDs of the Santi class)

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

...so they will complement each other's weaknesses.

...strengths.

 

[contedicavour]

...strengths.

Yes right but I have a tendency not to oversell

cheers

 

[Gladius]

The BPE vs Cavour argument : the 1st is a LHD while the 2nd is a light carrier for STOVL ... yes that's true, but it's logical that comparisons are made because the 2 ships will end up performing very similar tasks in the real life world, ie fleet flagship, providing air cover and running strike missions, leading amphibious task forces.

Unfortunately, this is great extension, wrong. IMO of course.

Thus not, would be better that we don't confuse the things. If something theoretically can serve on extraordinary form or temporal service for something, does not signify that the Navy intend to employ permanently for it, neither that was fundamental characteristic of its design or capacities required.

· First, its true, our BPE will be able to serve as the Navy Flag Ship but only during limited periods. The Cavour however AFAIK will be the next permanent flag ship of the Italian Navy. An apparent little difference but important on terms of facilities and systems to do that (is not the same do anything during limited time to do for the entire operative life of the ship).

· Second, our BPE Juan Carlos I (or for this question the Príncipe de Asturias - PdA) never will act in missions of an Autonomous Strike Group. This drifts of the change of the operative doctrine adopted by the Spanish Navy where the mission of the STOVL vector, beyond the desires of some enthusiasts or forumers wishful thinking, is to give air support to a Projection Force and of course, win (or negate to the enemy) the Air Superiority & lend CAS over the area of the amphibious operations, nothing more, nothing less. And obviously this weight enormously on the capacities required by the Navy for the BPE. For what more than 1 LM-2500 & 2 Diessels for 21 knots max. if you always deploy with the slow LPDs & AORs. This not the case for the Cavour.

The doctrine of independent STOVL CV strike group has been abandoned by the Spanish Navy with the dissolution of the Alpha & Delta Groups. Both, measures included in the severe restructuring of the hierarchic and operative structure of the Spanish Navy (included itself on the Spanish Armed Forces Reform derived from the RED & the new National Defence Law), developed (or suffered) over the last years as result of the RED (Strategic Revision of the Defense). Most probably only with the replacement of the PdA, this question will be returned to the Spanish Strategic Defense Planning.

The capacity of the Juan Carlos I as vector of wing-fixed aviation was conceived with the only purpose to able the Navy with a permanent fixed-wing capacity inside the Group of Projection to support their amphibious capacities whenever the PdA would be unavailable for any cause. And like I said before as a stop-gap measure while the future of the F-35 is cleared. Never with STOVL CV (as the Cavour) missions or capacities in mind.

· Third, no. When we talk of BPE or Cavour about leading (or launching) amphibious operations, we are talking about a different level of capacities and not only on quantity of forces carried on them. The BPE was conceived to lead the Projection Group & deploy an amphibious force from the Marine Infantry, the Army or a mixed force. This is an another important detail, because you are counting with a need of transport, deploy and coordination of different operatives, logistics, troops, vehicles, helicopters... but most important, operational doctrine somewhat unprecedented in the Spanish Navy or in many European countries. Is the Cavour specifically designed for this? AFAIK not, correct me please if I am wrong.

I sincerely doubt that the Italian Navy restrict the better operational attributes (speed, auto-defense capacity, embarked aviation, etc...) of the NUM Cavour for support & amphibious roles like our Navy plans do with the BPE. For that I don't see the Cavour regularly included on Amphibious Task Forces or restricted always to force projection missions. I thought better capable to form a STOVL CV Task Group for SCS missions, Strike Missions or for Air Support to the Italian Army units deployed on International Missions, all this obviously while also maintain the capacity to support Amphibious Task Groups whenever was necessary, but not as her life motive.

However, our BPE it's not capable to operate as nucleum of a conventional STOVL Strike Group, as simple as that. If the Spanish Navy had desired a dedicated STOVL or a mere STOVL CV with independent operative capacity, she had revived one of the two BSAC projects of Navantia or presented a very modified design on the base of the BPE Juan Carlos, (Longer flight deck, no dock, different system of propulsion and as result consistently greater cruising an maximum speed, improved building to military standard on the entire ship, greater capacity of antimissile defense, among many others changes of design).

Sorry contedicavour, but without wishful thinking the Cavour and the Juan Carlos I are ships too different to able us to made comparisons between them. I never will compare one Nimitz with a Wasp, and at our reality level this is what we are doing, wanting to compare the Cavour with the BPE Juan Carlos I.

F35s aboard : yes the Navy is only ordering 22 F35B, but the Air Force still hasn't decided whether to order its 109 in F35A or F35B versions or even a mix of them. Hopefully we'll thus have more than 22 F35B in the inventory. Btw, date for introduction is 2014.

And meanwhile the F-35B is finished (if take the 2014 for introduction date we will said 3-4 years to complete the deliveries). You would be able to tell us how many Harriers plans the Italian Navy maintain operatives to serve in the airwings of the Cavour and Garibaldi? IIRC the Italian Navy have only 16 AV-8B+ & 2 TAV-8B... Any possibility of an Ex-USMC purchase to cover the gap in numbers? Or the Italian Navy plans part the 16 aircrafts between the two ship for the next 8-10 years?

 

[Galrahn]

One thing this does highlight however is the increase in expeditionary capabilities taking place in preperation of the 21st century, not just in Europe, but in the Pacific as well.

 

[Big-E]

How does Cavour disembark her tanks?

 

[Gladius]

Big-E, IIRC the Cavour must dock at port to do that.

The ship have four LCVP for troops and maybe light vehicles, but for the MBTs & the rest of heavy stuff she must dock and use her two ramps for 60 Tons. The same thing like a RO-RO ship.

 

[European]

I agree,
BPE and Cavour are not comparable.
2 conceptss and 2 different doctrines.

The Cavour has 2 elevators of 60 tons on the port side, 2 elevator 20-30 tons (one in the back and one on port sid) and a small elevator ov 7 tons for service and ammunitions. Total 5.

 

[Gladius]

The Cavour has 2 elevators of 60 tons on the port side, 2 elevator 20-30 tons (one in the back and one on port sid) and a small elevator of 7 tons for service and ammunitions. Total 5.

Emm, I don't think so.

AFAIK, the NUM Cavour have four heavy elevators connected with the hangar deck (where the MBTs, IFVs, etc... are planned to be stored) two of those are designed with a max. admissible weight of 30 Tons each (a forward “internal” aircraft lift (21.6 x 14 meters) and the aft “deck-edge” aircraft lift (15 x 14 meters), the another two munition and service elevators are limited to 15 Tons. A two more small elevators for service tasks are available for weighs of less than 7 Tons.

The vehicle transportation is carried out in the hangar deck, that has two 60 tons ramps for the disembarkation of the vehicles. One on starboard side and another astern, if we pay attention to the mentioned in the Marine Militaire an Fincantieri websites obviously.

European, you have a different info? Where I could obtain it to correct my data?

 

[contedicavour]

Unfortunately, this is great extension, wrong. IMO of course.

Thus not, would be better that we don't confuse the things. If something theoretically can serve on extraordinary form or temporal service for something, does not signify that the Navy intend to employ permanently for it, neither that was fundamental characteristic of its design or capacities required.

· First, its true, our BPE will be able to serve as the Navy Flag Ship but only during limited periods. The Cavour however AFAIK will be the next permanent flag ship of the Italian Navy. An apparent little difference but important on terms of facilities and systems to do that (is not the same do anything during limited time to do for the entire operative life of the ship).

· Second, our BPE Juan Carlos I (or for this question the Príncipe de Asturias - PdA) never will act in missions of an Autonomous Strike Group. This drifts of the change of the operative doctrine adopted by the Spanish Navy where the mission of the STOVL vector, beyond the desires of some enthusiasts or forumers wishful thinking, is to give air support to a Projection Force and of course, win (or negate to the enemy) the Air Superiority & lend CAS over the area of the amphibious operations, nothing more, nothing less. And obviously this weight enormously on the capacities required by the Navy for the BPE. For what more than 1 LM-2500 & 2 Diessels for 21 knots max. if you always deploy with the slow LPDs & AORs. This not the case for the Cavour.

The doctrine of independent STOVL CV strike group has been abandoned by the Spanish Navy with the dissolution of the Alpha & Delta Groups. Both, measures included in the severe restructuring of the hierarchic and operative structure of the Spanish Navy (included itself on the Spanish Armed Forces Reform derived from the RED & the new National Defence Law), developed (or suffered) over the last years as result of the RED (Strategic Revision of the Defense). Most probably only with the replacement of the PdA, this question will be returned to the Spanish Strategic Defense Planning.

The capacity of the Juan Carlos I as vector of wing-fixed aviation was conceived with the only purpose to able the Navy with a permanent fixed-wing capacity inside the Group of Projection to support their amphibious capacities whenever the PdA would be unavailable for any cause. And like I said before as a stop-gap measure while the future of the F-35 is cleared. Never with STOVL CV (as the Cavour) missions or capacities in mind.

· Third, no. When we talk of BPE or Cavour about leading (or launching) amphibious operations, we are talking about a different level of capacities and not only on quantity of forces carried on them. The BPE was conceived to lead the Projection Group & deploy an amphibious force from the Marine Infantry, the Army or a mixed force. This is an another important detail, because you are counting with a need of transport, deploy and coordination of different operatives, logistics, troops, vehicles, helicopters... but most important, operational doctrine somewhat unprecedented in the Spanish Navy or in many European countries. Is the Cavour specifically designed for this? AFAIK not, correct me please if I am wrong.

I sincerely doubt that the Italian Navy restrict the better operational attributes (speed, auto-defense capacity, embarked aviation, etc...) of the NUM Cavour for support & amphibious roles like our Navy plans do with the BPE. For that I don't see the Cavour regularly included on Amphibious Task Forces or restricted always to force projection missions. I thought better capable to form a STOVL CV Task Group for SCS missions, Strike Missions or for Air Support to the Italian Army units deployed on International Missions, all this obviously while also maintain the capacity to support Amphibious Task Groups whenever was necessary, but not as her life motive.

However, our BPE it's not capable to operate as nucleum of a conventional STOVL Strike Group, as simple as that. If the Spanish Navy had desired a dedicated STOVL or a mere STOVL CV with independent operative capacity, she had revived one of the two BSAC projects of Navantia or presented a very modified design on the base of the BPE Juan Carlos, (Longer flight deck, no dock, different system of propulsion and as result consistently greater cruising an maximum speed, improved building to military standard on the entire ship, greater capacity of antimissile defense, among many others changes of design).

Sorry contedicavour, but without wishful thinking the Cavour and the Juan Carlos I are ships too different to able us to made comparisons between them. I never will compare one Nimitz with a Wasp, and at our reality level this is what we are doing, wanting to compare the Cavour with the BPE Juan Carlos I.



And meanwhile the F-35B is finished (if take the 2014 for introduction date we will said 3-4 years to complete the deliveries). You would be able to tell us how many Harriers plans the Italian Navy maintain operatives to serve in the airwings of the Cavour and Garibaldi? IIRC the Italian Navy have only 16 AV-8B+ & 2 TAV-8B... Any possibility of an Ex-USMC purchase to cover the gap in numbers? Or the Italian Navy plans part the 16 aircrafts between the two ship for the next 8-10 years?

Interesting reading Gladius. I thought the Juan Carlos, althuogh a LHD, was the best the Spanish Navy could get (vs political and financial contraints) as a second carrier.
I'll be clearer : in the '90s when political and financial constraints were close to killing the NUM project (the "new major unit") our Navy was ready to accept a LHD instead of a specific light CV. As soon as the situation improved in the late '90s the Navy got its light CV and can thus keep alive a separate request for a LHD.
As soon as you see a continuous flight deck over 200 meters long, a sky jump, a hangar and a 3D long range air search radar, it is easy to think that the ship is in reality bound to act as a light CV. Vs the Wasp for instance it has a sky jump...
Since however you have been clear about the Spanish Navy's strategy (no autonomous strike force based on STOVL carriers), I'm wondering if Spain has adopted the best possible choice. It does have 2 big LPDs, so it could may be have afforded a real light CV and a separate simpler LHD, just by reducing the F100 class to 4 ships. What is your opinion ?

To answer your question, there is a plan to acquire 4-6 second hand AV8B+ from the USMC so as to reach asap 20-22 strenght level. Since production lines have been closed, this is the only possible source of more Harriers.
Otherwise we'll be very stretched since Garibaldi normally sails with 8 Harriers and if Cavour does the same then we're using all planes simultaneously...

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

oops sorry double post

 

[Mangusta CBT]

How does Cavour disembark her tanks?

http://www.racine.ra.it/anmilugo/foto_mug/MU_14050535.JPG :nutkick

 

[European]

Great pics Mangusta.
Please, could you tell us the total and exactly number of elevators of Cavour?

Thanks a lot.

 

[Mangusta CBT]

Great pics Mangusta.
Please, could you tell us the total and exactly number of elevators of Cavour?

Thanks a lot.

- forward “internal” aircraft lift (21.6 x 14 meters, 30-ton capacity)
- aft “deck-edge” aircraft lift (15 x 14 meters, 30-ton capacity)
- two 15-ton ammunition lifts
- two 7-ton service lifts
- A stern door with a 60-ton capacity ramp, allowing Ro-Ro type operations alongside a pier
- A side door with a 60-ton capacity ramp, to starboard, about in the middle of the ship

 

[Gladius]

contedicavour.

The Spanish Case is a very special and complicate affair.

Firstly, you have take in account that the direction of the Defence Policy Office is charged to the Ex-AJEMA (Navy General Staff Chief Admiral) Admiral Torrente Sanchez, and that weight on some measure. But going to the point, the spanish naval panoramic is very influenced by political reasons. In Example, in the previously naval plan approved in the 90s the High Sea Plan (Plan Alta Mar) the L-52 Castilla was not predicted. The plan included a sole LPD Galicia, but the political pressures of the Xunta of Galicia (Regional Government of Galicia) for providing work load to the shipyards of Ferrol resulted in the assignment of the L-52 and voilá a second LPD for the Navy. It was not the first time that occurs neither will be the last one

I know, this is not a very scientist method to fill aspirations of the navy or to comply strategic plans, but at times the things function thus in our country.

Other examples of anomalies are the 2nd Serie of MCM Vessels build Navantia (M-35 & M-36), between rumors of cancellation of the program, the shipyard financed for their own account and risk the construction of the last two ships, before the Spanish Government authorized even the funds for their construction. Obviously with the ships in drydock and being Navantia (before IZAR) a business controlled by the SEPI that is to say by the State, the funds were freed at the end. Another curiosity was the F-100 program, they began as light frigates of 3500 tm and you can see what the ships have finished being now.
Our naval reality has always been somewhat curious and prone to the surprises. Certainly, Spain has severe budgetary restrictions, our Defense Budget came to fall to the 0,9% of the GDP some years ago, but as can be observed seems that fortunately the tendency is changing favorably, and the fact is that the budgetary superabit that Spain enjoys for the last years, does not come badly for it.

The BPE was a imperative need as result of the two aging Newports, we need a replacement for them and we will have it on the next two years. The finance and crew chapters of the BPE were considered on this premise.

Interesting reading Gladius. I thought the Juan Carlos, althuogh a LHD, was the best the Spanish Navy could get (vs political and financial contraints) as a second carrier.
I'll be clearer : in the '90s when political and financial constraints were close to killing the NUM project (the "new major unit") our Navy was ready to accept a LHD instead of a specific light CV. As soon as the situation improved in the late '90s the Navy got its light CV and can thus keep alive a separate request for a LHD.
As soon as you see a continuous flight deck over 200 meters long, a sky jump, a hangar and a 3D long range air search radar, it is easy to think that the ship is in reality bound to act as a light CV. Vs the Wasp for instance it has a sky jump...

But be clearer, the Spanish Navy will never consider second STOVL CV while the Prince remains in commision.
The accepted reality in Spain, is that our Navy want and be able to maintain a sole STOVL CV and a sole embarked air-wing, however the Navy plans for this question are public. The reemplacement planned will be a CV, around the year 2015. If she will be a STOVL/CTOL/STOBAR/CATOBAR CV will depend on what occur with the F-35B. Particularly, the need to be very careful with the budgets and the funds inverted are the facts what decided to postpone the decision to replace the PdA in advance. Spain would not be able to suffer the fiasco that result from to be compromised in the construction of a CV STOVL (like the Cavour) and that by any reason the Program F-35B was canceled like the RAH Comanche Program, the budgetary blow would be too hard and very probably would kill the fixed-wing aviation in the Spanish Navy.

 

[contedicavour]

Woah thanks - I thought our defence planning was already complicated enough, but the federal dimension and public control over the defence industry complicate decisionmaking in Spain even more than in Italy
I think the F35B will materialize - though I wouldn't bet about in service dates given delays and cost overruns. Shame though that the F35B is the one and only machine that can fly off STOVL carriers (leaving aside hugely expensive CATOBAR modifications)

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

New Cavour Pictures From Italian Navy Site

http://www.marina.difesa.it/programmi/portaerei.htm

 

[European]

http://www.marina.difesa.it/programmi/portaerei.htm

Great picts Conte !!!

Wonderful....

 

[Manfred]

Yes Conte, thanks for posting that.

You gentlemen make this place an absolute gold-mine for ameture researchers like myself.

Keep up the good work, this is the best current event military site in existance!