Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[icelord]

quite possibly German SPG's for Land 17...

I believe the South Koreans have offered us something that was tested at pucka, not at home so can't confirm type, but someone here will. Speaking to a Transport driver a while ago, he always said the worst thing about being tied to Artillary was having to unload, reload and move, and that their numbers were so small that he would end up doing reloads, even though he was just the driver, with limited training in terms of Artillery. With Land 17 it would at least have less men to work on Artillery meaning more stations able to be manned.

As i've said before, some small Defence Companioes don't even supply to ADF, but overseas, try getting support for that in US.

ADI aka Another Defective Item. I know Thales saw it as a way in to get a bite of the Oz market and to extend into Sth East Asia from a firm base - but geez louise, they could have backed a better horse.... As it is, they will lose access into some projects as they're embargoed on some projects using US technology. Seems like a "'lose - less lose" situation to me

Could Thales be looking more long term in their Acqusition of ADI, by gaining access to projects in the future, or getting more for their Euro Companies over US. Such as LHD Construction being split between here and there.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Could Thales be looking more long term in their Acqusition of ADI, by gaining access to projects in the future, or getting more for their Euro Companies over US. Such as LHD Construction being split between here and there.

Well, the french aren't silly. They do take the longview. I don't approve of some things they do (and Francois knows why I get a bee in my bonnet ), but I absolutely respect their focus on getting to the end game.

The reality is that there will be some projects where Thales will be embargoed due to commercial conflict and confidentiality issues - and there will be a whole pile of new opportunities which they will find.

Bushmaster being a perfect example of this. Expect another announcement for Bushmaster Euro sales within the 9 months (and I'm not talking about another Dutch buy up)

 

[Aussie Digger]

I believe the South Koreans have offered us something that was tested at pucka, not at home so can't confirm type, but someone here will. Speaking to a Transport driver a while ago, he always said the worst thing about being tied to Artillary was having to unload, reload and move, and that their numbers were so small that he would end up doing reloads, even though he was just the driver, with limited training in terms of Artillery. With Land 17 it would at least have less men to work on Artillery meaning more stations able to be manned.

As i've said before, some small Defence Companioes don't even supply to ADF, but overseas, try getting support for that in US.


Could Thales be looking more long term in their Acqusition of ADI, by gaining access to projects in the future, or getting more for their Euro Companies over US. Such as LHD Construction being split between here and there.

It was the K-9 Thunder, but the mere fact it was tested here, means nothing. The RFT hasn't even been released yet. The Caesar was tested here 2 years ago and the RFI documents and the requirement for "crew protection whilst firing" ruled out the "gun on a truck" solutions...

The BIG problem with the K-9 is that a second armoured vehicle, the "K-10" is required to accompany it. For every artillery piece, you need to acquire ANOTHER armoured vehicle.

Seems a bit pricey for the "least" capable of the vehicles offered...

But maybe that's just me...

 

[Todjaeger]

Spg

Has the G6/L55 from Denel been looked at? I've always been rather impressed with the artillery pieces they put out. As I understand it, the G6 firing base-bleed rounds set a record for distance travelled by 155mm shells.

It is good though that Army is looking at getting some SPG, that will give them more options.

-Cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

Has the G6/L55 from Denel been looked at? I've always been rather impressed with the artillery pieces they put out. As I understand it, the G6 firing base-bleed rounds set a record for distance travelled by 155mm shells.

It is good though that Army is looking at getting some SPG, that will give them more options.

-Cheers

Yep the vehicle has been looked at and will be amongst the tenders bidding for the Land 17 contract, along with the Archer 155mm, PZH-2000, K-9 Thunder and possibly the AS-90 Braveheart.

The problem that the G6-52 has it that it is not in-service anywhere and therefore is not "Kinnaird" compliant and is considered "developmental". Kinnaird was a review conducted of ADF's acquisition processeses several years ago and basically states that "in-service" (ie: non-developmental) platforms are to be considered before "developmental" ones. It doesn't completely rule out a developmental platform, but it would have to have a SIGNIFICANT operational and probable cost advantage over a non-developmental project to "get up".

Thus, PZH-2000, K-9 and AS-90 are in the "box seat" already being in-service with other Armies, whilst Archer and G6-52 are considered "developmental". The fact that Acher has a confirmed order from Sweden for 40 odd vehicles, means it's "border-line" non-developmental, which might be enough.

Anyhoo we'll see. It promises to be an interesting program no matter which platform they pick and will deliver a massive boost in combat power for the Australian Army.

 

[Todjaeger]

Yep the vehicle has been looked at and will be amongst the tenders bidding for the Land 17 contract, along with the Archer 155mm, PZH-2000, K-9 Thunder and possibly the AS-90 Braveheart.

The problem that the G6-52 has it that it is not in-service anywhere and therefore is not "Kinnaird" compliant and is considered "developmental". Kinnaird was a review conducted of ADF's acquisition processeses several years ago and basically states that "in-service" (ie: non-developmental) platforms are to be considered before "developmental" ones. It doesn't completely rule out a developmental platform, but it would have to have a SIGNIFICANT operational and probable cost advantage over a non-developmental project to "get up".

Thus, PZH-2000, K-9 and AS-90 are in the "box seat" already being in-service with other Armies, whilst Archer and G6-52 are considered "developmental". The fact that Acher has a confirmed order from Sweden for 40 odd vehicles, means it's "border-line" non-developmental, which might be enough.

Anyhoo we'll see. It promises to be an interesting program no matter which platform they pick and will deliver a massive boost in combat power for the Australian Army.

The G6-52 (or is it 55?) is still considered a development vehicle? I was under the impression that all development work had been completed and was awaiting the first order. From what I remember, India had placed an order with Denel, then backed out when the issue of bribery came up.

Also, how different is the G6-52 compared to the G6? That has been in service with South Africa, and I believe a few other armies, for some time.

You're right though, pretty much whatever is chosen will be a boost for the Australian Army.

-Cheers

 

[rickshaw]

According to Global Security, the G6-52 is a new system:

Although outwardly resembling South Africa's renowned 155mm G6 wheeled Self-Propelled (SP) artillery system, the G6-52 is substantially different - to such a degree that it is justifiably promoted as an entirely new system.

 

[Aussie Digger]

The G6-52 (or is it 55?) is still considered a development vehicle? I was under the impression that all development work had been completed and was awaiting the first order. From what I remember, India had placed an order with Denel, then backed out when the issue of bribery came up.

Also, how different is the G6-52 compared to the G6? That has been in service with South Africa, and I believe a few other armies, for some time.

You're right though, pretty much whatever is chosen will be a boost for the Australian Army.

-Cheers

By "development" Kinnaird requirements mean "not currently in-service" anywhere else.

The G6-52 has not been ordered by any other Country yet, let alone introduced into service. This and it's weight are going to be the biggest factors counting against it...

 

[Simon9]

ADI aka Another Defective Item.

Or as the Diggers, say, Another Dumb Invention.

Bushmaster being a perfect example of this. Expect another announcement for Bushmaster Euro sales within the 9 months (and I'm not talking about another Dutch buy up)

Oh, come on gf, THAT'S NOT FAIR!!! :lul

 

[Grand Danois]

GF is doing that all the time...

 

[cherry]

Does anyone know when the decision will be made on the chosen platform for Land 17 and when they are due to enter service? I have lost track due to so many changes with this project.

 

[MARKMILES77]

The Request For Tender is due to be released in early 2007 now.


From DMO site:

{{Projects

LAND 17 - Artillery Replacement - 105mm & 155mm

Current Status
Point of Contact

Project Overview
LAND 17 will improve the Australian Army indirect fire support system through the replacement or enhancement of the 105mm Hamel Howitzer and 155mm M198 Howitzer fleet, when they reach the end of their service life.

Identified needs that may relate to this phase include:

artillery delivered high precision munitions;
an integrated and networked battlement management system for fires; and
improved delivery platforms.
Project background and proposal information is available in the current published Defence Capability Plan (DCP).

Current Status
TOP
This project achieved First Pass approval on 14 February 2006. In-service delivery is anticipated from 2011.
It is expected that a Request for Tender will be released in late 2006.

Point of Contact
TOP
LAND 17 – Artillery Replacement Project
Combat Support Systems Program Office
Land Combat Systems Branch
Land Systems Division
Defence Materiel Organisation
Victoria Barracks Melbourne
256-310 St Kilda Road
SOUTHBANK VIC 3006
Australia
Project Director
Telephone: +61 3 9282 5832
Facsimile: +61 3 9282 5701

TOP
Last updated: 26 May 2006}}



Because there is a real prospect of a direct swap of Bushmasters for Dutch
PzH-2000s, the in-service date could be much earlier than 2011 for the SP component of Land 17.
I think the year of decision is 2007/2008 but again, for the SP part, this could be first half of 2007!

 

[lobbie111]

Does Australia Need A Replacement for the Steyr

I believe the steyr is a great weapon however times are changing and so are modern weapons currently Most countries are in the process of replacing their standard infantry weapons. Although the steyr is a great weapon it is known to experience hydralocking but what replacement are there:

HK G36
HK 416
FN F2000
SCAR

Any others..?

 

[Tasman]

I believe the steyr is a great weapon however times are changing and so are modern weapons currently Most countries are in the process of replacing their standard infantry weapons. Although the steyr is a great weapon it is known to experience hydralocking but what replacement are there:

HK G36
HK 416
FN F2000
SCAR

Any others..?

What is hydralocking?

I've noticed from photos in the Australian Government Department of Defence website that Oz special forces don't seem to use the steyr. Is there a reason for this?

Cheers

 

[lobbie111]

Hydralocking is when the gun is imersed in water and once it is fired the gun might lock up or jam

Australia uses a modified version of the styr for australian conditions

 

[lobbie111]

Ahh this is because of the hydralocking but the special forces do use the steyr on occasions

 

[old faithful]

I dont believe that the styer is a "great weapon",it is a good one, and certainly better than the M4. However, there are better alternatives out there. The Canaidian version of the M16A2 comes to mind. The scar reads well,particualy with the new ammo...but that would mean changing our minimi,s,and they are good!
The Styers suffer from a few reliabity problems includeing cook offs. I have witnessed this first hand. When the barrel is hot, a chamberd round may cook off resulting in an unwanted discharge. The safty mech has been a problem since this wpn was introduced. I have never seen UD,s in such numbers prior to the Styers induction. I strongley believe that a new safty catch,combined with the scrapping of the Arctic trigger gaurd(relaced with a normal trigger gaurd) would resolve this. No amount of training has reduced the incedence of UD,s to pre Styer days.I know of 1 case where the Arctic trigger gaurd resulted in a Unlawful /unintenional discharge that killed one of my mates, however,the investigation tried very hard to "burn" the safty officer present.

 

[lobbie111]

Yes the steyr has its ups and downs and I have used the steyr before but I think and option such as the HK G36 or the 416 would be great because they are German quality combined with HK's reliability and the 416 has the new high relibility magazine

 

[Aussie Digger]

Yes the steyr has its ups and downs and I have used the steyr before but I think and option such as the HK G36 or the 416 would be great because they are German quality combined with HK's reliability and the 416 has the new high relibility magazine

ADF plans to introduce an upgraded "A3" version of the F-88A1 under Land 125. I doubt very much it'll disappear any time soon...

 

[lobbie111]

Ok thanks seems strange though, most other armed forces are upgrading there standard infantry weapons