Russian Navy plans to build 4 new Aircraft Carriers

[Francis]

I heard the new Aircraft Carrier will incorporate features of the Nimitz class carrier and The Ulyanovsk class carrier. But would it's displacement be similar to the Nimitz class or the Ulyanovsk class ?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Ulyanovsk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier#USS_Nimitz_.28CVN-68.29

 

[Big-E]

I heard the new Aircraft Carrier will incorporate features of the Nimitz class carrier and The Ulyanovsk class carrier. But would it's displacement be similar to the Nimitz class or the Ulyanovsk class ?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Ulyanovsk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier#USS_Nimitz_.28CVN-68.29

Do you have a link for the plans of this new carrier?

 

[Francis]

well only wikipedia but it is not specific on the plan and that's why I asked memebers of Defencetalk to shed some light on the subject. this two articles are the only paragraphs posted on wikipedia that talks about the aircraft carriers


The recent improvement in the Russian economy has led to a rise in defence expenditure and an increase in numbers of ships under construction, focusing on submarines, such as the conventional Lada class and nuclear Graney class. Some older ships have been refitted as well. Jane's Fighting Ships commented in 2004 that the construction programme was too focused on Cold War scenarios, given the submarine emphasis. The Steregushchy class corvettes, the lead ship of which was laid down on 21 December 2001, is the first new surface construction since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Steregushchy and its sister-ships are the only surface ships under construction, despite the average age of frigates now being above 19 years. In 2005 plans were announced for a class of two new aircraft carriers which would start construction in 2013-14 for initial service entry in 2017. Jane's said it was not clear whether 'this was a funded programme'. New amphibious ships are planned as well. The economic situation 'makes most of these plans look unrealistic for the immediate and mid term future', and even the nuclear deterrent force is in trouble. While three new SSBNs are now under construction, (the Borei class SSBNs), the first has been being built for at least ten years. The mainstay of the SSBN force, the Delta IVs, joined the fleet in 1985-91. Apparently while the service life of an SSBN normally is twenty to twenty-five years, without maintenance, it may be as short as ten to fifteen years.


Separate article


Russian Navy
Russian Admiral KuznetsovThe Russian navy has one operational aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetsov.

Russia is currently developing a new aircraft carrier design. They are starting from scratch to make a modern model with the newest available materials and electronics. Requirements would be for four aircraft carriers - two for the Russian Northern Fleet and two for the Russian Pacific Fleet. Construction is set to begin by 2010, and finish in around 6 years. The Ulyanovsk supercarrier design is being revised.



The two articles have a slight difference . the first article states 2 carriers are being constructed while the 2nd article says 4 will be constructed. both articles are in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carriers#Russian_Navy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Navy#Shipbuilding

 

[contedicavour]

Her last sortie resulted in the death of 2 lead aviators, major engine failures which required the escorts to also slow down to a crawl speed and a grounded air wing. the aircraft are unable to carry full loadouts due to design restrictions

That vessel is going nowhere in a hurry.

Very interesting - is the STOBAR configuration also part of the problem when you mention "the aircrafts are unable to carry full loadouts due to design restrictions" ?
Would a refit thus require catapults (though I remember your posts in another thread saying that is hardly feasible) ?
Last but not least, would the potential new carrier design include catapults ??

cheers

 

[FutureTank]

Naval shipbuilding in Russia

There is a quiet war going on in Russia and Ukraine within the shipbuilding industries. The St.Peterburg shipyards are after the bulk of Russia's shipbuilding business, but with change of government in Ukraine to a more pro-Russian posture, there is a new attempt to return some shipbuilding to Nikolayev.

This carrier-building is as far as I'm concerned more about restoring prestige and pride then actual creation of some sort of strategic force.

I seriously doubt the new class will be in the Nimitz range, but rather in the other European designs range, or maybe a modified Kuznetzov.

 

[contedicavour]

There is a quiet war going on in Russia and Ukraine within the shipbuilding industries. The St.Peterburg shipyards are after the bulk of Russia's shipbuilding business, but with change of government in Ukraine to a more pro-Russian posture, there is a new attempt to return some shipbuilding to Nikolayev.

This carrier-building is as far as I'm concerned more about restoring prestige and pride then actual creation of some sort of strategic force.

I seriously doubt the new class will be in the Nimitz range, but rather in the other European designs range, or maybe a modified Kuznetzov.

If I'm not wrong Nikolayev is the only former USSR shipyard capable of building an aircraft carrier right ?
If it still is the case, then you bring up an interesting point. Russia will need some deal with the Ukraine to materialize its plan not only for new CVs, but even for a refit of the existing Kutznetsov !

cheers

 

[FutureTank]

If I'm not wrong Nikolayev is the only former USSR shipyard capable of building an aircraft carrier right ?
If it still is the case, then you bring up an interesting point. Russia will need some deal with the Ukraine to materialize its plan not only for new CVs, but even for a refit of the existing Kutznetsov !

cheers

Conte di Cavor,

Yes, Nikolayev was the shipbuilding place for all carriers in USSR. Ukaine benefits more so then Russia because it gets jobs, retains skills, and doesn't aggrivate Turkey.

I don't want to mislead anyone so I'll just say the following
There are roumours that a 'deal' as you say will be reached with Ukraine in regards to a whole lot of naval related issue after the very bitter break-up of the Black Sea Fleet involving...yes, you guessed it, gas (for heating, not oil for Americans) supplies.

The St Petersburg shipyard is 'suggesting' investmet to expand its production capabilities. I saw it suggested in a Russian forum that Germany may be invited to make that investment, but apparently Poles also want shipbuilding jobs in Gdansk.

What all this means, I don't know. There are a number of programms being proposed, from refitting to building, and from patrol vessels to the aircraft carriers which are a subject of the conversation here.

That is as it stands as far as I know. Quite frankly the Pacific Fleet for one can probably use more and modern patrol vessels or corvettes, or at least refit existing vessels to fully operational capability. It seems to me (if I was the ops officer in RPF) that I would want an aircraft carrier like a hole in the head

I can try and find out more if you are really interest.

 

[contedicavour]

Conte di Cavor,

Yes, Nikolayev was the shipbuilding place for all carriers in USSR. Ukaine benefits more so then Russia because it gets jobs, retains skills, and doesn't aggrivate Turkey.

I don't want to mislead anyone so I'll just say the following
There are roumours that a 'deal' as you say will be reached with Ukraine in regards to a whole lot of naval related issue after the very bitter break-up of the Black Sea Fleet involving...yes, you guessed it, gas (for heating, not oil for Americans) supplies.

The St Petersburg shipyard is 'suggesting' investmet to expand its production capabilities. I saw it suggested in a Russian forum that Germany may be invited to make that investment, but apparently Poles also want shipbuilding jobs in Gdansk.

What all this means, I don't know. There are a number of programms being proposed, from refitting to building, and from patrol vessels to the aircraft carriers which are a subject of the conversation here.

That is as it stands as far as I know. Quite frankly the Pacific Fleet for one can probably use more and modern patrol vessels or corvettes, or at least refit existing vessels to fully operational capability. It seems to me (if I was the ops officer in RPF) that I would want an aircraft carrier like a hole in the head

I can try and find out more if you are really interest.

Interesting post thanks !
This more industrial point of view as to where and who would build new ships (and especially CVs) for the Russian Navy can bring new insights. Political will and increasing Russian defence budgets matter a lot, but without appropriate shipyards nothing will materialize after all

cheers

 

[zevgoldman]

The Russians could be nothing more than building carriers for resale to the communist chinese.

The chinese certainly want to establish a deep water navy and with the active assistance of American retailers and manfacturers they have the money to do so.

 

[FutureTank]

The Russians could be nothing more than building carriers for resale to the communist chinese.

The chinese certainly want to establish a deep water navy and with the active assistance of American retailers and manfacturers they have the money to do so.

Are you blaming the ex-Communist Russians and the still Communist Chinese for playing the Market?

 

[Big-E]

Are you blaming the ex-Communist Russians and the still Communist Chinese for playing the Market?

If PLAN was in the market for foreign carriers I think they would go to Ukraine first. They (Ukraine) would beg them to save their ship building industry probably giving them a good deal. I think at this point PLAN want's to be able to build them personally.

 

[FutureTank]

If PLAN was in the market for foreign carriers I think they would go to Ukraine first. They (Ukraine) would beg them to save their ship building industry probably giving them a good deal. I think at this point PLAN want's to be able to build them personally.

Come on Big-E!
I know you know that the FSU shipbuilding was/is just as complex as that of US or Europe. Laying down a hull in a Ukranian shipyard means little if it can't be outfitted with all the other equipment the vessel requires, and that is dependent of over a hundred suppliers all over FSU. My guess is that much of the 'smaller' componentry is what the Chinese are really after, because they could probably build the hull themselves. Its the carrier as a system they can't put together, and neigher can the Ukranians evidently since the last carrier in the yards was scrapped.

 

[swerve]

...
Its the carrier as a system they can't put together, and neigher can the Ukranians evidently since the last carrier in the yards was scrapped.

Doesn't prove they couldn't finish it (NB. I'm not saying they could, just case not proven). It was bound to be scrapped anyway, as there was no customer. The Ukrainian govt. couldn't afford to pay for completion, or to operate it, & nobody else wanted it.

 

[Big-E]

Come on Big-E!
Its the carrier as a system they can't put together, and neigher can the Ukranians evidently since the last carrier in the yards was scrapped.

Much of the FSUs naval infrastructure was located in Ukraine. While the CCCP was set up to have certain components in different areas Ukraine had an overwhelming majority of that industry. She also inherited several other industries that correlate to arming a carrier. I don't know what the Russian Federation has done to facilitate shipbuilding of a carrier since then but I do know at the fall of the CCCP Ukraine was much more likely to be able to build one. Besides that you know Russian and Ukrainian defense sectors are linked... whatever one needs the other provides.

 

[FutureTank]

Much of the FSUs naval infrastructure was located in Ukraine. While the CCCP was set up to have certain components in different areas Ukraine had an overwhelming majority of that industry. She also inherited several other industries that correlate to arming a carrier. I don't know what the Russian Federation has done to facilitate shipbuilding of a carrier since then but I do know at the fall of the CCCP Ukraine was much more likely to be able to build one. Besides that you know Russian and Ukrainian defense sectors are linked... whatever one needs the other provides.

Its not so simple. Some of the critical navigation systems and electronics manufacturing for naval architecture (and other Services for that matter) were located in the formar Baltic republics.Others to survive have had to change their productions and product range away from military application, and to realign them again would require substantial investment which had not been in the budgets until now. Many naval systems in carriers are unique anyway, and can not be adopted from either Air Force systems or civilian applications.

 

[Big-E]

Did you not hear what I said? If Ukraine needs a Russian component they will sell it to them. If they didn't they could easily cancel their Sukhoi and S-300 components and cripple the whole of the Russian export market.

 

[FutureTank]

Maybe now they will, but not in 1992, and not a year ago either.

 

[Big-E]

Maybe now they will, but not in 1992, and not a year ago either.

Oh sure they would... they recieved components from Russia for foreign sales all the time. Ukraine's industry has been trying to ween herself off of Russian dependence by forging a military cooperation alliance with Belarus. With these two nations defense infastructure combined they have everything they need.

 

[FutureTank]

Belarus is entirely dependent on Russia economically speaking, and although there is trade between Ukraine and Russia, it is highly controlled. The sort of sales you are talking about to build a carrier in Ukraine would be subjet to the still-bad feelings over the division of the Black Sea Fleet, never mind the only just thawed relations with Ukraine. If anyone was going to have a carrier built in Ukraine, it was going to be Russia, and not China.

I am now going to speculate that the announcement of proposed Russian carriers has something to do with the Chinese taking a renewed interest in refirbishing their decade-old purchase.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Belarus is entirely dependent on Russia economically speaking, and although there is trade between Ukraine and Russia, it is highly controlled.

actually, there is not a lot of love lost between Belarus and Russia. Belarus has made it singularly clear that they want to take sales from Russia - in fact in 2004 I believe that they actually outstripped Russia for the first time in mil sales.

Ukraine and Belarus are definitely sympatico with each other and see Russia as a commercial as well as an idealogical/political threat. Both countries are more than happy to take mil sales off of russian - and Belarus has openly avowed to wanting top spot - IIRC their "President" stated openly that he wanted to take the crown from the Russians and prove that they were a mil supplying power in their own right. IIRC it has been openly stated in RANSAC and the Belarus Foundation of their intentions.

The trade between The Ukraine and Russia is out of sufference more than anything. the eastern 1/3rd of The Ukraine is pro Russian, the balance is pro western. Believe me, if the immediate states can work out how to evict the russians out of their energy supply loop - they will in the blink of an eye.