Modernizing Russian inventory

[Grand Danois]

It would be one thing if it was just a year or two, but trends over the last 15 years show the same lack of procurement. You can't say 15 years of scant buys equal a servicable modern military.

Scant buys can't equip a military of the current size - they need a smaller military.

 

[Big-E]

Scant buys can't equip a military of the current size - they need a smaller military.

How small?

 

[Grand Danois]

How small?

Army? I'd say around 250,000-300,000 active. Get it all pro and expand from that.

 

[Big-E]

Army? I'd say around 250,000-300,000 active. Get it all pro and expand from that.

A Ukraine sized force... ouch If they stick with the contracts and abolish conscription that might be doable.

 

[turin]

Well, of course if you dont want to see something happening, there is always an "if" and "when". I go by the numbers though, and there is definitely a change to observe for the last two or three years. Numbers are not growing vastly but there is some stability now in terms of procurement schedules. The new corvettes are another example. There is still much to do, see the replacement for the Sovremennys etc. However we can just wait and see. The economical figures for the next couple of years do not show serious risks in terms of financial re-assessment.

 

[swerve]

How small?

Half the manpower in the Strategic Missile Forces. Stupidly overmanned. Cut navy manpower by at least a third. Too many pointless mouths to feed, bodies to clothe & house. Biggest cut in paramilitaries. More there than in the regular army. Why have tens of thousands of "Railway troops"? Use civilian guards, & a lot fewer of them. Combine the Interior Troops, the Federal Protection Service, & the Federal Border Guard Service, the Federal Security Service, & cut total numbers by at least half, & preferably more. Let local riot police deal with riots, the army with fighting wars. The president can have a few hundred guards: he doesn't need over 10000. Etc. And cut the MoD staff & other central units by at least half. 20% of the armed forces!

Overall, cut manpower numbers by ca. 30-40%. And equipment. No more rusting stockpiles. Keep only what can be kept serviceable without having to replace some worn-out component every time it's used. Half the tanks, maximum. Probably less. Sell spare land & buildings (epecially prime sites in Moscow!). Maintain, train, & improve.

 

[Big-E]

Overall, cut manpower numbers by ca. 30-40%. And equipment. No more rusting stockpiles. Keep only what can be kept serviceable without having to replace some worn-out component every time it's used. Half the tanks, maximum. Probably less. Sell spare land & buildings (epecially prime sites in Moscow!). Maintain, train, & improve.

Does anyone know how interchangable the parts are for different tank models? I ask thinking of the HUGE bone yard they would have for canabalization.

 

[Whiskyjack]

My understanding is that the Army (i.e. tactical army) is around 200,000, but there is also the Air force, Border Force, Internal Security, Air Defence and Strategic Force.

Remember it being news on this site a while ago. Also that the Army would move to 70% regular in the next 5 years(?).

Sorry for the lack of clarity this info is all from various internet and magazine reading.

 

[USNavySEAL3310]

Article on '04 Russian conference regarding modernization with the defence council.

 

[swerve]

My understanding is that the Army (i.e. tactical army) is around 200,000, but there is also the Air force, Border Force, Internal Security, Air Defence and Strategic Force.

You forgot the Navy. Air Defence was incorporated into the Air Force several years ago, but "Internal Security" consists of about 4 separate forces, some of which have armour. With the border guards, they outnumber the army, though more lightly equipped.

IISS & CIA put total numbers at around 1 million.

 

[Whiskyjack]

You forgot the Navy. Air Defence was incorporated into the Air Force several years ago, but "Internal Security" consists of about 4 separate forces, some of which have armour. With the border guards, they outnumber the army, though more lightly equipped.

IISS & CIA put total numbers at around 1 million.

Thanks, not sure how I forgot the navy...

 

[swerve]

Thanks, not sure how I forgot the navy...

Got a breakdown of numbers from 2003.
Thousands -
Army 320
Navy 155 (including naval air, naval infantry & coast defence)
Air force 185
Strategic forces 100
Central MoD staff, training, support etc: 200
Total 960

Para-military: Over 400, including
Border Guard ca 150 (including coastguard - patrol vessels, helicopters, etc)
Interior troops ca 180
Railway troops ca 50
Presidential guard
A couple of other minor forces

NB. Some units of the border guard & interior troops have armour & artillery.

 

[contedicavour]

The Mig-31s never carried R-77, they just got upgraded Mig-31M with better avionics and I think they are probably carrying some improved version of AA-9.
Mig-29/su-27 - only the upgraded ones to smt and sm standard can actually use R-77. I know in 2005, they upgraded 11 su-27s, not sure about this year, Big-E's numbers are probably correct.
They are hoping for eventually around 100 su-34 over the lifetime and 58 by 2015. Also, they got 2 Tu-160 this year, I think they will probably get 1 per year from now on.
The navy's shape looks even worse than this.

Thks Tphuang. This means that in a potential fight with AIM-120C/D equipped Western fighters, there are only a few dozen MIG29SMT and SU27 capable of fielding the AA12/R77 ? Woah if this is indeed the case the Russian air force is in real big trouble... Older BVR AAMs such as AA10 are semi-active and inferior to AIM120.
Instead of spending on a few new SU34 I'd update massively all the existing Flankers instead so that there are enough jets capable of countering the Typhoons, latest F15, F16 and F18E/F and Rafale.

cheers

 

[isthvan]

Thks Tphuang. This means that in a potential fight with AIM-120C/D equipped Western fighters, there are only a few dozen MIG29SMT and SU27 capable of fielding the AA12/R77 ? Woah if this is indeed the case the Russian air force is in real big trouble... Older BVR AAMs such as AA10 are semi-active and inferior to AIM120.
Instead of spending on a few new SU34 I'd update massively all the existing Flankers instead so that there are enough jets capable of countering the Typhoons, latest F15, F16 and F18E/F and Rafale.

cheers

I was under impression that Russians made software upgrade on older MiGs and Sukhois to enable AA-12 usage(since I heard that from Russian members on few other forums I don't know how true this is but on other hand Russians have history of making such upgrades during regular maintenance)?

 

[Big-E]

I was under impression that Russians made software upgrade on older MiGs and Sukhois to enable AA-12 usage(since I heard that from Russian members on few other forums I don't know how true this is but on other hand Russians have history of making such upgrades during regular maintenance)?

I think using AA-12 requires more than just a software upgrade but a hardware upgrade as well.

 

[contedicavour]

I think using AA-12 requires more than just a software upgrade but a hardware upgrade as well.

I guess also new radars vs the good old Zhuks - I'm not even sure that the new ones fit in the older Fulcrums.
This point is worth some research : the whole credibility of the Russian air force is at stake if they only have a bunch of jets capable of launching modern active BVR missiles...

cheers

 

[Big-E]

I guess also new radars vs the good old Zhuks - I'm not even sure that the new ones fit in the older Fulcrums.
This point is worth some research : the whole credibility of the Russian air force is at stake if they only have a bunch of jets capable of launching modern active BVR missiles...

cheers

It won't really matter much after 2015... 95% of the current active inventory will have to be scrapped. They would be better off waiting for PAKFA... If they can have it ready by then. :unknown

 

[contedicavour]

It won't really matter much after 2015... 95% of the current active inventory will have to be scrapped. They would be better off waiting for PAKFA... If they can have it ready by then. :unknown

The issue is dates and overall quantities. If the delivery date slips, they'll have next to nothing. If the date is preserved, anything less than 200-250 jets will leave huge swaths of Russian airspace wide open.
That's why I would rather suggest ordering 100-150 SU30 preferably similar to the export version ordered by India. That would be a good stopgap measure.

cheers

 

[Big-E]

The issue is dates and overall quantities. If the delivery date slips, they'll have next to nothing. If the date is preserved, anything less than 200-250 jets will leave huge swaths of Russian airspace wide open.
That's why I would rather suggest ordering 100-150 SU30 preferably similar to the export version ordered by India. That would be a good stopgap measure.

cheers

From what I understand most of their intercept is centered around the Mig-31... once this fleet (from the early 80s) is retired they will have mostly basic BVR capability. They had tried to retire most of the fleet in 96' but Putin has reactivated them... god help those pilots. 10 years of neglect isn't going to help anyone.

 

[contedicavour]

From what I understand most of their intercept is centered around the Mig-31... once this fleet (from the early 80s) is retired they will have mostly basic BVR capability. They had tried to retire most of the fleet in 96' but Putin has reactivated them... god help those pilots. 10 years of neglect isn't going to help anyone.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Since the MIG31 can launch at best the Alamo C and D, it's like we still had F16s launching the latest variants of Sparrow AIM7... :shudder
Russian jets face today, from West to East, Finnish F18s with AIM120, rotating NATO jets in Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania, Polish F16s with AIM120 (though I'm not sure these have already been delivered), Czech and Hungarian Gripen with AIM120, Slovak Fulcrums with AA10 alamo, Ukrainian Flankers with AA10, Turkish F16s of the latest Blocks with AIM120, the -Stan former Soviet republics with some Flanker and Fulcrums, and then China with the very latest Flankers with AA12. A bit more to the East, even Japan which could even end up with F22s !!!
Way too many potential enemies with better BVR capability.

cheers