EA/18G Growler

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We just hit the first nail into the JSF coffin.

:australia
Don't thinks so. I don't see the type of UCAV you are talking about being ready in the time frame. It is still developmental and that project has more bugs to iron out than JSF being not so far down the path.

I am quite happy about a mixed fleet of JSF and Rhinos. Maybe we may even buy some F-35B's donw the track (as I ahve said before it is nice to daydream). dodging the need to buy the LRIP aircraft is a bonus in overall costs.
 

phreeky

Active Member
Awesome news! :)

What's the expected lifetime on the Super Hornet airframes? That airframe must get an absolute flogging given the sort of Gs it can pull (not that they'd do it all that often).

Current RAAF pilots were surely a little excited at the news.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Don't thinks so. I don't see the type of UCAV you are talking about being ready in the time frame. It is still developmental and that project has more bugs to iron out than JSF being not so far down the path.
Thats why i said we would need another Super Hornet purchase to replace the rest of our hornets. Unmanned aircraft can become operational very quickly. After the initial first flight, Australia could have an operational squadron a few years later.

I am quite happy about a mixed fleet of JSF and Rhinos. Maybe we may even buy some F-35B's donw the track (as I ahve said before it is nice to daydream). dodging the need to buy the LRIP aircraft is a bonus in overall costs.
Thats a perfect example of the international customers sitting on the fence. No one wants to buy the LRIP aircraft so it seems the USAF will be forced to buy them. The USAF will be pretty pissed off as the first JSF's will cost the same as additional F-22's. This will be another nail in the JSF coffin.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
I vaguely remember reading an article somewhere (a year or so ago) which proposed flogging off the HUG'ged bugs to Canada and replacing them with Shornets. The writer of the article made it sound feasible.
If the RAAF were to now get some Shornets, what is the likelihood that the RAAF could sell some of the HUG bugs and get a few more Shornets?
Or would there be too little return for the cost and the effort, assuming the Canadians, or Swiss or Spanish or whoever, wanted some?

rb
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
I vaguely remember reading an article somewhere (a year or so ago) which proposed flogging off the HUG'ged bugs to Canada and replacing them with Shornets. The writer of the article made it sound feasible.
If the RAAF were to now get some Shornets, what is the likelihood that the RAAF could sell some of the HUG bugs and get a few more Shornets?
Or would there be too little return for the cost and the effort, assuming the Canadians, or Swiss or Spanish or whoever, wanted some?

rb
Lets remember that the Shornets are replacements for the F-111s, the legacy Hornets will be replaced by the F-35 (without going into the debate, THIS is the the current plan) in the 2012-2014 time frame.

I would like to see some G model kits bought as well, my understanding is that all new build F's can be easily upgraded to G?
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Lets remember that the Shornets are replacements for the F-111s, the legacy Hornets will be replaced by the F-35 (without going into the debate, THIS is the the current plan) in the 2012-2014 time frame.

I would like to see some G model kits bought as well, my understanding is that all new build F's can be easily upgraded to G?
The latest block F models have all the wiring to be converted to G models down the track. So if we go JSF later, then some of our hornets can be converted to G models.

Also we have not signed ANY orders for the JSF. We have shown interest in the development with possibilities of buying up to 100 but realistically 80 aircraft. Now that we are going with super Hornets we MAY only buy 50-60 JSF aircraft.

Nothing is down on paper, it is highly likely that we may just buy more Super Hornets as they will be significantly cheaper. This current order is a clear step in that direction.

Everyone kept saying that we should go with a single aircraft as its cheaper etc so the JSF was a good option. Now watch those people be hyprocits and say we should go with two aircraft types... :rolleyes:

We should just go with Super Hornets, with our budget we can afford well over 100 aircraft, with enough for attrition to allow us to fly them for the next 40 years.



The Super Hornet has most of the capabilities of the JSF, yet the JSF will never have some of the capabilities of the Super Hornet with two seats and electronic warfare versions.

If the RAAF were to now get some Shornets, what is the likelihood that the RAAF could sell some of the HUG bugs and get a few more Shornets?
Or would there be too little return for the cost and the effort, assuming the Canadians, or Swiss or Spanish or whoever, wanted some?
Our hornets dont have enough flight hours left in the air frames. The classic hornets will be retired in 10 years time even though the avionics and weapons it can carry are still very decent.

Flying all our classic hornets across multiple squadrons will use up the remaing flight hours very quick. If we ordered a second or even third squadron of Super Hornets now then the Classic Hornets could be combined into a single squadron so that the air frames will last 2-3 times as long as each aircraft wont get flown as often. This would ensure we dont throw away a perfectly usefull aircraft just be its flight hours have been maxed out. The classic hornets are more than good enough for flying CAP's and escorting wedgetail and inflight refueling tankers, while the Super Hornets engage the enemy.

I suppose based on this we could sell the hornets to the Canadians, Swiss or Spanish users. They would then use our aircraft for attrition so that their current fleet can be flown longer.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The latest block F models have all the wiring to be converted to G models down the track. So if we go JSF later, then some of our hornets can be converted to G models.

Also we have not signed ANY orders for the JSF. We have shown interest in the development with possibilities of buying up to 100 but realistically 80 aircraft. Now that we are going with super Hornets we MAY only buy 50-60 JSF aircraft.

Nothing is down on paper, it is highly likely that we may just buy more Super Hornets as they will be significantly cheaper. This current order is a clear step in that direction.

Everyone kept saying that we should go with a single aircraft as its cheaper etc so the JSF was a good option. Now watch those people be hyprocits and say we should go with two aircraft types... :rolleyes:

We should just go with Super Hornets, with our budget we can afford well over 100 aircraft, with enough for attrition to allow us to fly them for the next 40 years.
Watch the hypocrites?

I am!!!

Wasn't it only a matter of weeks ago you were pushing the A-10 bandwagon?

The it was the F-22/F-16 band wagon. Now it's the HUG BUG/Super Hornet deal followed apparently somewhat down the track by the Super Hornet/UCAV deal.

Your opinions sound a bit like a child in a candy store at times. "I want that one!" Ooh no I want that one...

How about attempting to look at the situation realistically?

No Super Hornets have been ordered yet. RAAF and ADF are still focussed on the F-35 to provide the basis for their follow on air combat capability.

The SH purchase does nothing to change that. It may indeed reduce the funding available for an F-35 purchase, but I doubt whether we'll see more than 75-80 JSF's in-service anyway. That number is sufficient to equip 3x operational Sqn's and RAAF has ALWAYS said it requires 4x Sqn's to fulfillthe tasks required of it.

Phase 1 and 2 of AIR-6000 will acquire JSF. Phase 3 of AIR 6000 was ALWAYS "assessing" other "options" and will continue to do so. Whether they are SH controlled UCAV's or some other form of UCAV remains to be seen.

This current deal is nothing more than a strong push by the incumbent Defence Minister who seems to be getting his way with a lot of decisions. (As did Senator HILL too).

There is no guarantee that Defmin NELSON or even the Liberal Party will be in their current position come 2007. Looking too far down the track because of this one supposed purchase (which STILL hasn't been announced officially, when I see the FMS notice or an update at defence.gov.au, THEN I'll believe it)...
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Watch the hypocrites?

I am!!!

Wasn't it only a matter of weeks ago you were pushing the A-10 bandwagon?

The it was the F-22/F-16 band wagon. Now it's the HUG BUG/Super Hornet deal followed apparently somewhat down the track by the Super Hornet/UCAV deal.

Your opinions sound a bit like a child in a candy store at times. "I want that one!" Ooh no I want that one...

How about attempting to look at the situation realistically?
I am looking at the situation realistically. This is why i have been suggesting various combinations to get opinion on the these various choices.

The A-10 suggestion was originally because if Australia went with the JSF it would lack a low end aircraft for peace time missions and CAS. I also suggested F-16's with the JSF to provide a high-low mix.

The F-22/ F-16 combo was suggested because Labour dreams of seeing the F-22 in Australian colours. If the F-22 was ordered then we would have definitely needed a cheaper aircraft to make up numbers and to perform the low-risk missions. This is why i suggested the F-16, it would perform well with the F-22 in a ultra high-low mix. Both of these options no longer exist if the Super Hornet order goes ahead.

The Super Hornet option however is cheap enough to buy 100 aircraft so it doesn't need a cheaper aircraft to make up the numbers. The Super Hornet is also capable enough that it doesn't need an expensive high end aircraft to get the difficult jobs done.

So for Phase 1 and 2 of Air 6000

The advantages of buying F-35's to go with the Super Hornets
  • Harder to detect, so less risk.
  • Slighly longer range on internal fuel
  • Slighly better A2A capability

The advantages of buying a 2nd, 3rd or 4th Super Hornet Squadron
  • Cheaper than JSF per aircraft
  • Australia would operate a single aircraft fleet cheaper again
  • We will already operate Hornets and 1 squadron of Super Hornets, setup costs would be much less. CHEAPER AGAIN
  • Our inflight refueling tankers dont require a boom, so we could keep using our current tankers to save a bit of money. CHEAPER AGAIN!!!
  • Twin Engine, less crashes.
  • Two seat cockpit will provide quicker and more accurate Close Air Support as it reduces pilot workload.
  • Current F/A-18F's can be converted to G models easily
  • Likelyhood of the Super Hornet being able to control a UCAV is high, perfect for Phase 3 of Air 6000 which can allow us to buy UCAV.

The chances of us ditching the JSF is extremely high.
 

Mick73

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well, I don't think the F-35 buy will be scrapped but a huge reduction in numbers bought, down to say 30-40 airframes.

What I see happening is:
The F/A-18F's will be bought to replace the F-111C/G's.
Those same F/A-18F's with be replaced by the F-35A.

The F/A-18 HUG's would be replaced by a further buy of F's and the HUG's will merge into one Sqn and then replaced.

The F-22 is a wet dream for Australia, why?
1. It's cost?
2. The US will not sell them to us.
3. We don't need that kind of A/C
Labour won't scrap the F-35's
1. They are not that stupid we need a F-111 replacement
2. The know the F-22 is a wet dream idea.
The RAAF doesn't and will never need the F-22 or large numbers of F-35's. What they need is a F-111 replacement now (F/A-18Fs) and a F/A-18 HUG replacement soon.

UCAV's will be a long way off for the RAAF. Why?
How long has the world been using UAV's? And how long has it taken for us?
Whenever these UCAV go operational and take to the sky, add 10-15 years before we get them.
The Army is just going operational with UAV's...the US them in GW1 (91) right?
The RAAF have been toying around for a long time with the global hawk etc and still no sign of getting them. The RAN is just developing the doctrine for patrol boat and UAV deployment. So by the time all of this comes into play it will be years much later than the big players of the world.

That’s how slow it works in Oz

To make it easier:
Fighter = F/A-18F's
Strike = F-35A's
Maritime Strike/Patrol = P-8 MMR?? the 737 version
Maritime Patrol = a small number of Global Hawks
Awac's = 737 Wedge tail
Tankers = Airbus A330 things
Transports = C-17, C130J and maybe C27J's

h
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I am looking at the situation realistically. This is why i have been suggesting various combinations to get opinion on the these various choices.

The A-10 suggestion was originally because if Australia went with the JSF it would lack a low end aircraft for peace time missions and CAS. I also suggested F-16's with the JSF to provide a high-low mix.
CAS capability is NOT a priority for RAAF. That is why Magoo finds the idea of A-10's in RAAF service hilarious and why RAAF is not equipped or armed adequately to conduct the role.

The F-22/ F-16 combo was suggested because Labour dreams of seeing the F-22 in Australian colours. If the F-22 was ordered then we would have definitely needed a cheaper aircraft to make up numbers and to perform the low-risk missions. This is why i suggested the F-16, it would perform well with the F-22 in a ultra high-low mix. Both of these options no longer exist if the Super Hornet order goes ahead.
Bomber Beazley dreamed of seeing F-22 in RAAF colours. That's hardly relevant now is it? I'm not so certain the rest of Labour is so keen on the F-22.

The Super Hornet option however is cheap enough to buy 100 aircraft so it doesn't need a cheaper aircraft to make up the numbers. The Super Hornet is also capable enough that it doesn't need an expensive high end aircraft to get the difficult jobs done.
In the next 5-10 years you're probably right. I VERY much doubt RAAF would agree with this threat assesment beyond 2015 however.

So for Phase 1 and 2 of Air 6000

The advantages of buying F-35's to go with the Super Hornets
  • Harder to detect, so less risk.
  • Slighly longer range on internal fuel
  • Slighly better A2A capability
The advantages of buying a 2nd, 3rd or 4th Super Hornet Squadron
  • Cheaper than JSF per aircraft
  • Australia would operate a single aircraft fleet cheaper again
  • We will already operate Hornets and 1 squadron of Super Hornets, setup costs would be much less. CHEAPER AGAIN
  • Our inflight refueling tankers dont require a boom, so we could keep using our current tankers to save a bit of money. CHEAPER AGAIN!!!
  • Twin Engine, less crashes.
  • Two seat cockpit will provide quicker and more accurate Close Air Support as it reduces pilot workload.
  • Current F/A-18F's can be converted to G models easily
  • Likelyhood of the Super Hornet being able to control a UCAV is high, perfect for Phase 3 of Air 6000 which can allow us to buy UCAV.
The chances of us ditching the JSF is extremely high.
Government just last week signed the JSF - MoU (the 4th nation in the WORLD to do so) and committed ANOTHER US$100m for the Production, Sustainment and Follow-on development phase of the JSF program. First pass approval was signed for RAAF to acquire the F-35 last only last MONTH.

Boeing provided an un-solicited offer of SH's earlier this year to Government (I found out about it in April) and this latest push for the acquisition is based on tender data obtained during the Formal AIR-6000 phase in 1999/2000. The push to acquire SH's to provide an early replacement for F-111's has been around for years. It's got NOTHING to do with the F-35 acquisition.

What out of this shows ANY indication that Government AND RAAF no longer have the intention of purchasing the F-35A, let alone the high possibility of "ditching" the F-35 that you think exists?

The F-35 is going to prove significantly more capable than the SH in most areas, not "slightly" as you seem to think.

The B-707's CANNOT soldier on much longer. For one thing they are no longer allowed to land at most airports due to their noise, their airframes are absolutely shagged and we only have 3 anyway. Carlo Kopp would throw a fit if he heard you're suggestion that 3 AAR tankers are enough... (Don't you know we need at least 17x "wide-body" tankers to POSSIBLY defend this wide Brown land of ours effectively?)

Besides we've already ordered our boom AND hose and drogue equipped A330's and paid an awful lot already. It's probably a bit late to pull out of that deal, without flushing $1 billion or so down the drain (and it's sounds like we're already about to flush a billion or so down the drain on ANOTHER controversial program ;))...

F-35's will be able to effectively control UCAV's in due course too. The F-35's inherent EA capability will also be significantly greater than the SH thanks to it's F-22 based AESA radar.

SH's have an effective AESA I agree, but the "back end" is APG-73. A significantly LESS capable radar base than an APG-77 I hope you'll agree???

Rhino "F" models are wired so as to be capable of conversion to a defacto "G" model I agree. Where however in ANY RAAF force structure plans does gaining a dedicated EW aircraft fit in?

We did NOT acquire Raven, we did NOT convert F-111 to a defacto "Wild Weasel" standard despite the opportunity to do so in the mid-90's (again through an un-solicited offer to ADF) we have not even acquired HARM despite DSTO and ARDU integrating it and conducting trials with the weapon on the F-111 in the mid-90's.

Why then do you consider that a plus? Cause we could if we wanted too? That's nice, but RAAF seems to have NO intention of operating any sort of Tactical EW aircraft. Ever.

Most of those points you are arguing in favour of apply equally with a single fleet of F-35 aircraft. Is it going to be more capable than Rhino's?

Yes.

Is a single aircraft fleet cheaper to operate than a dual fleet?

Yes.

As to the others:

Cheaper than F-35?

So what? So is a Cessna. Perhaps we should invest in a fleet of A2A and A2G capability Cessna's? (At least Carlo Kopp COULD speak with some authority then...) If Government is willing to fork over the bucks to get an admittedly more capable system, more power to em I say.

2 seat cockpit provides more accurate CAS and reduces pilot workload?

Again, CAS is not a priority for RAAF so I fail to see why you think this is an issue, but the SINGLE biggest criticism put against the F-35 is it's design is TAILORED towards CAS and battlefield strike at the expense of other more important roles. How you could possibly think (given this alleged design focus), that the SH is more capable than the F-35 will be in this role is beyond me. I agree it has "2 sets of eyes" to perform visual scanning, however the level of automation and data-fusion in the F-35 will largely negate this disadvantage in my opinion. Every RAAF pilot that has "flown" the F-35 simulator has been almost gushing with praise for this aircraft and the capabilities it wil have.

I'm sorry but I trust an operator over a theorist EVERY time. No doubt that will infuriate Kurt, but there you have it...

Your turn. :D
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Australia operates 71x F/A-18A/B aircraft. The "57" number I referred to earlier is the number of "operational" airframes within the "operational" Squadrons, (3 Sqn, 75 Sqn and 77 Sqn) additional Hornets equip 2 OCU, ARDU and an "attrition" pool...

ALL RAAF Hornets are undergoing the Hornet upgrade project, and will have the same APG-73 radar and other capabilities of the HUG project. Not all are going through the centre barrel replacement program however.
Thanks for the information.

I have been doing a little digging.

In total 75 aircraft were purchased 57 F/A-18A (Single seat aircraft) and 18 F/A-18B (Two seat aircraft) of which 2 of each type have been lost, leaving 55 F/A-18A and 16 F/A-18B, 71 aircraft in total.

At present the ARDU appears to have two F/A-18 aircraft a single-seater and a two-seater; I suspect this may increase during the HUG programme.

The OCU has around 10-12 aircraft mainly two seaters, but probably 2-3 single seaters.

Each of the operational squadrons will have at least 1 and possibly 3 two seaters.

With 57 aircraft deployed to the operational squadrons, gives each of the operational squadron 19 aircraft.

When you do the sums the attrition pool is empty.

I have read somewhere that operational squadrons are allocated 15 pilots (and I think the CO is in addition). This is the same in the UK RAF. Squadrons have 15 aircraft plus a flying spare, 16 aircraft in total. Operating many more squadrons, aircraft that are involved in modification programmes are placed in long-term storage as true attrition spares. They are cycled through the operational squadrons filling in as aircraft are withdrawn for deep maintenance and modification.

It looks like the attrition spares have been deployed locally at about 3 aircraft per squadron.

Early in the life of the aircraft this strategy works because it ensures that the flying hours are spread across the fleet. There are dangers, lurking problems. The maintainers get accustomed to providing 8 aircraft from 20 easy, folk do not notice that some of the early deliveries and clocking up a lot of flight time.

Around-about mid-life update time (NOW) things change, the maintainers need to prepare 8 –10 aircraft from 14-16 wreaks that were left from yesterday’s missions.

It becomes much more difficult, the aircraft that went away for update do not return.

I found a source that provide the delivery date for each aircraft:

http://www.adf-serials.com/

Working with the data and an assumed flying rate of 200hrs/year, some of the early deliveries have clocked-up a lot of hours.

If the 73% of anticipated life is correct, then some of the RAAF aircraft are less than one year from time-ex: mainly early two-seaters. On this basis no in service aircraft could be flying in six years. Most of the RAAF aircraft will time out in two or three years.

The first aircraft has gone to Canada for the trial installation of the CBR (HUG 3) modification (A21-16 was sent in April 2006), so far it is not back and there is no forecast of its return to service.

Initial estimates suggested that only 15 CBR’s were required, today 40 – 50 seems nearer the mark. To carry out this work in a reasonable timescale would require a huge number of aircraft to be withdrawn from service.

To enable 48 aircraft to be updated and take 12 months for each aircraft would require, 12 aircraft to be withdrawn from the squadrons and take 5 years to complete, 16 aircraft withdrawn for 4 years, 24 aircraft withdrawn for 3 years. After the update program the Super Hornets could be used to allow the F-111s to retire early.

Now I understand the problem.

The Australian government has no choice (not little, but none). The gap is not caused by a long time need to replace the F-111, but by a medium term short fall in the anticipated lifetime of the F1/A –18 Hornets. After three years the F/A-18E/F/G aircraft can be used to allow the F-111s to retire gracefully.

I think that the RAAF got here because insufficient aircraft were procured initially and that the anticipate life was much lower than anticipated. Spare aircraft were flowed down to the operational squadrons, who had a happy time.

In my assessment Australia needs to order not 24 F/A- 18 E/F/G aircraft, but 36 aircraft, the 24 single-seat and 12 two-seat aircraft (it could be argued that a 50/50 split may be better).

The more I dig the worse it gets. (There are some aircraft out there that have probably exceeded the original planned hours of 6,000hrs, but because hours were not correctly recorded when bits were transferred from one aircraft to another, limits may have been exceeded). A lot of platforms with more than 4,000hrs are at risk.

Running the aircraft that will be permitted to continue flying through the CBR HUG3 program will enable extensive inspection to be carried out and allow SQA to check that all the bits have been identified and that flight hours/fatigue index has been correctly recorded.

Initial results from the first aircraft suggest that CBR will take longer that originally planned and that even if all the RAAF aircraft were put through the program much fewer than 48 aircraft would emerge as flight fit.

It appears that HUG 3 has thrown up bigger problems that will require bigger fixes for the F/A-18A/B(C/D ish) than was envisaged.

The key is the number of aircraft and the time required to go thought the CBR programme; 48 aircraft and 16 months means at least another 24 aircraft are required, A/B/C/Ds are not available so what do you buy? E/F/Gs.

I had no idea that it had become so tight for Australia. Knowing that the F-111 were aging I thought this would be the weak point. I had not realised that the F-18 were running out of hours so quickly.



Chris
 

phreeky

Active Member
I used to see the hornets going on quite a few training flights, however it seems to have reduced over the last couple of years - have they reduced the flight hours in order to stretch it out maybe?

If what you say is true it's quite a disaster really.

What is the ex-USN/Marines hornets situation? Would there be any that were retired quite early on and quite good airframes, or would they mostly be quite "shagged" from carrier takeoffs/landings?
 

Big-E

Banned Member
What is the ex-USN/Marines hornets situation? Would there be any that were retired quite early on and quite good airframes, or would they mostly be quite "shagged" from carrier takeoffs/landings?
You wouldn't want USMC Hornets... they have more hours than RAAFs.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The Australian government has no choice (not little, but none). The gap is not caused by a long time need to replace the F-111, but by a medium term short fall in the anticipated lifetime of the F1/A –18 Hornets. After three years the F/A-18E/F/G aircraft can be used to allow the F-111s to retire gracefully.

I think that the RAAF got here because insufficient aircraft were procured initially and that the anticipate life was much lower than anticipated. Spare aircraft were flowed down to the operational squadrons, who had a happy time.
RAAF got in this position because they did not buy C model hornets and decided it was cheaper to upgrade our A models to C model spec.

This is the tight ass Australian way. The pen pushers in charge look at the money value when comparing aircraft instead of looking at the big picture. Comparing the numbers would see that upgrading the A models would cost a fraction of a new C model aircraft.

The money for the APG-73 etc upgrades on our A model hornets is/was a complete waste of money when you know the aircraft doesn't have much life left. A small/mid sized purchase of C model aircraft in the 90's could have used the money from the pointless upgrades on the A model hornets. The only upgrade i would have performed on our A hornets would be to carry AMRAAM.

As our current hornets are now pretty high tech due to the many upgrades, it would be a waste seeing them all retire when they could still be very useful. This is why merging the current 3 squadrons of classic Hornets into 2 Squadrons would give us another 5 years. Merging into a single squadron would see them operational well into the 2020's. This would link nicely with AIR 6000 Phase 3 which could see a UCAV purchase which would then replace the remaining Classic Hornets instead of Phase 1 & 2.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Fly Before You Buy

Here's something for you all to ponder.

Has anyone at ARDU, say a current flight test crew, flown/tested the SH? Normal practice would be to do an OPEVAL/PREVIEW as part of the decision making process.

If so, where is the report, or, at the very least, the technical assessment of its aerodynamic performance relative, say, to the F/A-18 Classic.


:)
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Occum the lack of such a report could be the fact it is just it is an "upgraded hornet". So every single aspect is the same if not better than our current hornets.

Also you dont really need a report, the defence minister can buy whatever he wants to a certain extend. This is pretty much what they did with the JSF, just picked it.

The US navy also snuck the Super Bug under the radar as an upgraded model instead of a completely new design which it really was.
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
Occum the lack of such a report could be the fact it is just an upgraded hornet. So every single aspect is the same if not better than our current hornets.

The US navy also snuck the Super Bug under the radar as an upgraded model instead of a completely new design which it really was.
huh??? :confused: What's with all the double talk RJ?
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Occum the lack of such a report could be the fact it is just it is an "upgraded hornet". So every single aspect is the same if not better than our current hornets.
.

One of the areas where the early reports said that it was most definitely not the same, was in close in dog-fighting. Public comments by people who flew it or flew against it, were along the lines of: the basic Hornet ran rings around the Super Hornet.
In the real world though, that the relatively stealthy (1/10th of the Hornet), AESA equipped, Super Hornet would have shot down the Hornet long before it got within the dog-fighting zone!
 

irtusk

New Member
If this is truly just a stopgap measure then perhaps something different is called for.

How about the Su-30MKOZ?

Similar idea to the MKI but less advanced (no thrust vectoring for instance)

1. cheaper than the SuperHornet
2. faster than the SuperHornet
3. much longer range the SuperHornet
4. get opportunity study capabilities of the plane all the neighbors are getting
5. great resale value

Basically it comes far closer to replacing the raw capabilites of the Pig than the SH and is very upgradeable to take whatever electronics or carry whatever weapon you want.

Yes it would require training to convert aircrew over, but a) it can't be harder than the effort currently expended maintaining the Pig and b) the SH would require training too.

There may be some areas where SH is more advanced (lower RCS, radar), but it does maintain a credible strike capability till the F-35 arrives, which is supposedly the whole purpose of this exercise.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
One of the areas where the early reports said that it was most definitely not the same, was in close in dog-fighting. Public comments by people who flew it or flew against it, were along the lines of: the basic Hornet ran rings around the Super Hornet.
In the real world though, that the relatively stealthy (1/10th of the Hornet), AESA equipped, Super Hornet would have shot down the Hornet long before it got within the dog-fighting zone!
That's what happens when you have a more cumbersome aircraft. Legacy Hornets have quicker execution time but the ride is nowhere near as smooth as the Super Bug. She is noticably faster in accelaration, max speed and rate of climb. I wouldn't want to tangle with a legacy at low altitude but up high she's toast.
 
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