Future USN surface fleet

Big-E

Banned Member
Current forcasts for the surface component of the 313 ship fleet are 7 DDG-1000s, 19 CG(X)s, 62 DDG-51s, and 55 LCS. My problem with this is there is no reason to have expensive stealth CG(X)s doing AAW work to guard a carrier that isn't stealth. The whole point of the DDG-1000s stealth was so it could operate in the dangerous littoral environment with high survivabilty. CG(X)s are made to replace the Ticos... the way I see it ABs do that job pretty well as is. CG(X) isn't really needed especially since it is more expensive than the costly Zumwalts.

To offer an alternative I would have the ABs fullfill the Tico's role and up Zumwalt procurement to 26. It will be cheaper than building 7 Zumwalts and 19 CG(X)s. The Marines would have all the fire-support they would ever need, the funding waste of stealth in the CSG makeup will be cut and the extra DDG-1000s could be mother-ships for the LCS in the littorals. Let me explain what I mean as a mother-ship.

The way I see LCS ATM is it is not capable enough in all aspects of warfare at sea. The Perrys were able to run the gambit on capability in a limited way. The LCS should be able to do the same. IMO the hull should incorporate a VLS for a limited number of ESSMs... the radar for it would not be needed as that would come from the DDG-1000 (mother-ship) working in tandem... much like the FREMMs and Horizons by data-link. Also 2 quad launchers for Harpoon IIs should be installed in a stealth configuration. With this config the littorals would be owned by DDG-1000/LCS task forces working in tandem or the LCS could do all the projected capabilities plus whatever the OHPs could do.

The CSGs would have Ticos replaced with ABs as stealth isn't really required in a picket ship... after all it is their purpose to absorb whatever gets thru AEGIS, better them than the carrier. If it was a stealth CG(X) it would cruise right on into the CVN. Since the CSG doesn't need stealth ships even with CV-21 stealth hulls will be saved for the littorals where CSGs dare not tread. Until USN designs a truly stealth carrier the escorts need not be of the DD(X) family of ships.
 

Wooki

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Until USN designs a truly stealth carrier the escorts need not be of the DD(X) family of ships.
I would agree with that statement. I am a bit iffy about using radar picket ships though, as you can handcuff yourself if you are not careful.

Didn't the English lose a Radar picket ship back in the Falklands because it got in the way of the shooter ship, and that in turn allowed the argies the few seconds needed to drop a dumb bomb on target?

cheers

w
 

Big-E

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Better for the SSM to hit the picket than the carrier. If it gets that far into the AEGIS bubble your toast anyway. That's how it works now and won't change until the CV is stealth.
 

AegisFC

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The Tico's do other things other than guard the carriers so stealthy features wouldn't hurt when the ship is off doing independant operations.
 

Big-E

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The Tico's do other things other than guard the carriers so stealthy features wouldn't hurt when the ship is off doing independant operations.
It certainly wouldn't hurt but the price tag will kill it. DDG-1000s can certainly do any independent work you would want it to do given sufficient numbers and give it an ABM ability. Replace the Tico SAGs and independent work with Zumwalts. Let the Ticos in the CSG be replaced by ABs with stronger radar.
 

Wooki

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The Tico's do other things other than guard the carriers so stealthy features wouldn't hurt when the ship is off doing independant operations.
Well, there is little return on investment in that case, as if your primary role is to protect a carrier (that isn't stealthy) and your secondary role is to run off on independent ops, then the expense of LO tech isn't justified.

If the reverse were true then it would be.

Having said all that, even an observable carrier and its task force today is pretty hard to find, even when you consider the assets it is likely to face in the near term.

Given that then the CG(X) is a little bit of a strange fish and
Captain Kirk said:
To offer an alternative I would have the ABs fullfill the Tico's role and up Zumwalt procurement to 26. It will be cheaper than building 7 Zumwalts and 19 CG(X)s.
.... he has a point. Why do we need it if there is no real threat that couldn't be handled by an AB or the Zumwalt class?

cheers

w
 

Big-E

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Having said all that, even an observable carrier and its task force today is pretty hard to find, even when you consider the assets it is likely to face in the near term.
When a CSG isn't running EMCON it's pretty easy to find. When you have an AWACS or two overhead lighting up the fleet it kinda gives it away. Given the fact you wouldn't want to enter a hot zone without knowing what your getting into. The CG(X) is supposed to be doing AAW work anyway which will make it show up like a sore thumb.
 
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AegisFC

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It certainly wouldn't hurt but the price tag will kill it. DDG-1000s can certainly do any independent work you would want it to do given sufficient numbers and give it an ABM ability. Replace the Tico SAGs and independent work with Zumwalts. Let the Ticos in the CSG be replaced by ABs with stronger radar.
The Tico's have a couple of advantages over the Burkes, more VLS cells for one, the main one though is it has room for an enbarked staff and the facilities for them to work rather than just cramming them into where ever we can fit them on a Burke, a Tico also has more comms gear and more room for antenna's than a Burke.
So CG(X) will probably end up being a DDG-1000 with 1 less gun, more missiles, room and equipment for any staff that is embarked with the group.
I agree with you that LO isn't as important on CG(X) as it is on DDG-1000 but that doesn't mean that it should have no LO features at all.
 

Big-E

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The Tico's have a couple of advantages over the Burkes, more VLS cells for one, the main one though is it has room for an enbarked staff and the facilities for them to work rather than just cramming them into where ever we can fit them on a Burke, a Tico also has more comms gear and more room for antenna's than a Burke.
So CG(X) will probably end up being a DDG-1000 with 1 less gun, more missiles, room and equipment for any staff that is embarked with the group.
I agree with you that LO isn't as important on CG(X) as it is on DDG-1000 but that doesn't mean that it should have no LO features at all.
What I don't understand is the 1000s have Admiral staff facilities too. Why do they need them along with the CG(X)s? If your going to give Zumwalts the staff room it seems like a foregone conclusion to kill the CG(X) and replace them with Zumwalts. Why do we need more tubes to replace Ticos when we have SSGNs to fill your Tac Tom roll? The ABs can carry more AAW loads to make up for the reconfig while the converted Ohios carry your strike package. I think having a refit program for the last 20 or so Flight IIAs with a com and radar upgrade would fill your requirements to fill the Ticos role. The ABs already incorporate LO technologies, enough to fill the role of escort.
 

swerve

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I would agree with that statement. I am a bit iffy about using radar picket ships though, as you can handcuff yourself if you are not careful.

Didn't the English lose a Radar picket ship back in the Falklands because it got in the way of the shooter ship, and that in turn allowed the argies the few seconds needed to drop a dumb bomb on target?

cheers

w
Two ships were acting as radar pickets & air defence for the landing force in San Carlos water (note that without them, Argentinean aircraft could use the land to shield them from the amphibious forces radars - no AEW!), directing CAP SHARs. The ships were specifically targeted because of the difficulties they were causing the Argentineans. Coventry with Sea Dart (had shot two Skyhawks down that day, to add to the two she'd downed previously), Broadsword with Sea Wolf. Attacked by 4 Skyhawks, taking advantage of land cover to minimise the ships reaction time. Coventry, taking evasive action, got between Broadsword & the Skyhawks, & was hit by 3 bombs. Damn fine bit of bombing by Primer Teniente Alférez Leonardo Barrioneuevo - dropped 3, hit with all of them.
 

Lawman

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Perhaps the best thing might be to build more LCS in a multi-role format. With a single 8-cell VLS and eight Harpoons, they would have a good capability within the fleet. In place of the expensive CG(X), I would simply buy up a load more A-B class, but with leaner manning - adopting the Aussie manning practices would boost manpower efficiency massively. In terms of naval gunfire support, especially in the littorals, it might be possible to simply fit the G-D version of the LCS with a 5in gun. If fitted with either the ERGM or perhaps a naval version of the PGK. A future fleet of ~100 Arleigh Burkes, ~50 LCS, and ~50 of the naval gunfire support equipped LCS, would make for a great fleet in my opinion!
 

Big-E

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I do agree with giving LCS a multi-role but, can the LCS mount 1 AGS without increasing size or reducing capability? It takes alot to mount a 5 inch gun with an auto loader and 600 rd magazine. I doubt it would meet mission requirements if converted for that. The AGS would have to go on something larger.

100 ABs would not only mean scrapping CG(X), DDG-1000 but the first batch of flight 1 DDG(X) also. These future ships are made for lower manning and maintenance levels than the ABs which in the long run will save lifecycle costs. ABs have no electric-drive meaning future systems like EM Railguns or point defense lasers would be unpowered in the fleet. A more flexible spiraling of technolgies needs to go into the future destroyer purchases than the AB can provide.
 

B.Smitty

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IIRC, CG(X) is supposed to have a completely new AAW suite that emphasizes TMD in addition to more traditional duties. Don't know if this is something you could retrofit on a Burke.
 

Big-E

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IIRC, CG(X) is supposed to have a completely new AAW suite that emphasizes TMD in addition to more traditional duties. Don't know if this is something you could retrofit on a Burke.
Why not? They already have TMD capabilities on the ABM systems. Whatever aperature they had planned for CG(X) can replace SPY-1 on the ABs during mid-life refit and more cheaply as it won't have to be fit into a stealth structure.
 

B.Smitty

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Why not? They already have TMD capabilities on the ABM systems. Whatever aperature they had planned for CG(X) can replace SPY-1 on the ABs during mid-life refit and more cheaply as it won't have to be fit into a stealth structure.
Isn't DD(X)/CG(X) supposed to have significantly higher electrical power output? This may play a factor.

The large, flat DD(X) deckhouse may be more amenable to wider arrays than the smaller areas on the Burke.

Plus a 14-16000 ton CG(X) is just going to have more room than a 9000 ton Burke.

'Course this is all just guesswork. It may be easy to retrofit a Burke with the CG(X) suite. I don't know.
 

gf0012-aust

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Isn't DD(X)/CG(X) supposed to have significantly higher electrical power output?
Its considerably higher in the test beds. Not sure if that will translate to the new vessels if migrated straight over but, for a substantially smaller drivetrain mass they are (min) doubling output.

That makes rail gun tech, electro magnetic ancilliaries and electronic impulse weapons a lot closer to reality than buck rogers ever was.

the USN is up for interesting times....
 

Big-E

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'Course this is all just guesswork. It may be easy to retrofit a Burke with the CG(X) suite. I don't know.
The AN/SPY-3 EDM-1 that underwent testing at Wallops Island was a rather small device that could be fitted on just about anything. It's dimensions are 107 inches tall, 82' wide, 25' deep, weighs 5,500lbs and consumes 2,000KW of power. Granted there are about 22 tons of equipment that goes below but it would replace the old equipment not needing much of a structural overhaul for installation.
 

B.Smitty

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The AN/SPY-3 EDM-1 that underwent testing at Wallops Island was a rather small device that could be fitted on just about anything. It's dimensions are 107 inches tall, 82' wide, 25' deep, weighs 5,500lbs and consumes 2,000KW of power. Granted there are about 22 tons of equipment that goes below but it would replace the old equipment not needing much of a structural overhaul for installation.
Isn't the CG(X) radar supposed to be significantly more capable than the DD(X)'s?
 

Galrahn

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This is a topic which good men can disagree strongly.

First. I hate the 313-ship plan. I think it puts money into the wrong priorities, it's focus is driven by the surface fleet in neglect of the needs of today, I think it is a plan that is bad for shipbuilders, and I think it is generally a strategic blunder designed for the war of tomorrow in an age when technology is moving so quickly that tomorrow's warship design might of been obsolete yesterday and no one would know better until the day of launch.

It focuses way too much of the shipbuilding funding on traditional firepower, lacks true innovation, accepts and disregards new concepts without evaluation, and restricts funding for future innovation. It ignores the war of today in an excuse to plan for the war of tomorrow, making assumptions with very little historical precedence.

Quite bluntly, I see the 313-ship plan as a cold war era upgrade using technologies first utilized in the Gulf War designed by Vietnam era sailors looking to relive the glory of Midway. It does virtually nothing to take advantage of the large lead in naval competition the US Navy currently enjoys, and does even less to sustain it.

The first problem with the 313-ship plan is the requirement for 7 DDG-1000s. I find the boasts that a 14,000 ton land attack destroyer will be a littoral stealth weapon able to operate in contested access areas containing robust, redundant, and survivable naval anti-access/area-denial networks not only unlikely, the suggestion barely passes the common sense test without just sounding stupid.

The second problem with the 313-ship fleet are the assumptions made. There are assumptions made the LCS is the best ship for deploying unmanned systems, that the LCS does not need to be well armed, that the LCS has a high requirement for speed, that the LCS has a high requirement for shallow draft, and the LCS will not require much armor.

Another assumption is the SSGN will not need to be replaced when the first 4 Ohio's are retired, nor will more SSGNs need to be converted from SSBNs, and this can be done while lowering the over all number of SSNs while additionally building SSNs without under ice requirements that was a staple of the cold war.

There is an assumption made regarding Marine Corp deployment from sea, that L-class ships are best replaced with unarmed or lightly armed, civilian manned commercial ships with no armor and large open cargo decks.

The final assumption is that every logistical ship will always be available, that tenders no longer matter, and that somehow there will be enough tankers to both supply MEBs operating at tremendous rates of speed off civilian ships and the fleet required to protect it.

This plan is stated to be achievable by taking funding from the naval aircraft budget, the same budget that would address the aging naval aircraft problem commonly discussed today, and that the money is better used by building bigger, more capable surface warships despite, for the first time in history, the average age of the surface fleet being younger by 4 years than the average age of US Naval aircraft.

Good men can disagree, but the 313-ship plan appears designed by competitors who hope for the US Navy to lose its substantial lead in naval capability.

What would I do different? I would do what the Royal Navy did after Lord Nelson established the Royal Navy as the most superior fleet in the world, and allowed the Royal Navy to rule the sea for almost a century. Following the Battle of Trafalgar, the Royal Navy was in the same position the US Navy is in today, well ahead of any future competitor in technological superiority and a numerical advantage. The Royal Navy responded to these events with wisdom.

First, they built several 1 ship classes to test new designs and technologies. Additionally, the ship classes that were built were not substantial upgrades to previous designs, and the total number of ships built per class was smaller, performed in steady production runs designed to sustain work for shipbuilders without breaking the budget. Smaller, faster ships were built and deployed, mostly to run down slave traders and deal with lingering piracy issues in remote colonies. I think the GWOT, substantial lead in blue water naval supremacy, the need for expeditionary forces, and the modern aircraft carrier fleets can be adapted to this model.

Build the DD(X), 2 of them, each of a different class. These two ships would follow a more recent tradition within the US Navy, specifically the USS Long Beach and USS Bainbridge, both 1 ship classes designed to test new technologies. While most people know the USS Long Beach was the first nuclear powered surface ship, most people may not remember the Long Beach was also the first warship designed to fire missiles as the main weapon. The Long Beach and Bainbridge were technology demonstrators for shipbuilding, propulsion systems, electronics, and weapons, and both were commissioned into the fleet to evaluate these technologies for future classes. The DD(X) has the opportunity to perform the same role for the modern Navy. The goal of the DD(X) 2 ship project would be to work towards a CG(X) deployable in the 2020s and a DDG(X) deployable in the 2030s, replacing the current CGs and DDGs respectfully.

While I would build the first 16 LCS ships, I would stop after 16 for a few years to evaluate the entire LCS, rather the littoral ship "Naval Truck" concept. I would additionally build 2 larger ~20,000 ton designs centered around 64 improved VLS cells but with focus on a well deck and a hanger. I would insure both ships have an expeditionary capability, but also the ability to develop the potential of a mother ship idea for littoral operations centered on a blue water warship.

I would also build 2, each of a unique class, SSGN submarines, while maintaining a build rate of 1 SSN a year until 2012, then increasing to 2. With the knowledge that the SSBN will need replacing in the next decade, and that underwater vehicles have arrived as a main element to a submarine arsenal, I would be a bit flexible with the shipbuilders and attempt to pay for half of each new SSGN with ONR funding. The SSGN(X) design competition would be to come up with an underwater superiority network that included options for the roles of current SSGNs, SSBNs, and SSNs., but focuesed on offboard systems and the ability to dominate area, detect and destroy littoral submarines at range.

The current fleet would be maintained to their full hull life when possible with the CGs and DDGs through modernization, to be replaced by lessons learned of the 4 technology demonstrators and 16 LCS demonstrators. The current Sea Base idea would be scrapped, replaced with variants of the LPD-17 that would serve both for ESGs and the Global Fleet Station concept, and variants would include an AGS variant or other shore bombardment variant.

The idea is to take advantage of the substantial lead the US Navy has over the near to mid term by building up the logistics forces, LPD-17s, and submarines for dealing with today's war while building technology demonstrators for future replacement classes of ships that would fight tomorrows war. If war was to break out before the CG(X) and DDG(X) are built, no one can argue the current CG and DDG fleet wouldn't be suitable, after all, it is the largest, most modern fleet in existance and unless something changes dramatically, will be for the duration of their service lives.

1 CVN would be built every 4.5 years to maintain a constant fleet of 11 CVNs, and additionally 4 LHAs then 8 LHDs would be build at a rate of 1 every 3.33 years. These two schedules would allow shipbuilders to plan ahead, knowing what is coming, and maintain naval and marine aviation carrier forces at a constant rate, but more importantly, to keep stability in the shipbuilding industry in an effort to curb or even lower costs.

Sorry this is so long.
 
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