F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

[contedicavour]

Who cares.. if they aren't on the right committees it doesn't matter. It will never make it to the floor for a vote.

If they are senators, they can tilt the vote from Democrat to Republican... so both parties may be ready to strengthen programmes that are important to them. Pork barrel politics at its best

cheers

 

[Big-E]

If they are senators, they can tilt the vote from Democrat to Republican... so both parties may be ready to strengthen programmes that are important to them. Pork barrel politics at its best

cheers

The way the Sub-committee on defense appropriations is stacked it isn't likely. The vote wasn't even close.

 

[LancerMc]

The whole problem with Japan buying F-22's is that they would want to produce a large amount of the aircraft in Japan. The USAF doesn't trust Japanese aircraft industry to keep the raptor's secrets. Like in previous posts the N. Koreans have been very adapt at putting spy's into Japan, probably China and Russia as well. If F-22's were produced in Japan there would spy's running around the factories like crazy. I am sure if the Japanese were willing to buy F-22's without producing any part of the aircraft, they mite (I stress mite!) get to buy Raptors. Lockheed Martin has too much political pull in the Congress really even to let something like that happen any ways. In America we're are worried about shipping jobs overseas. If Japan built Raptors that would be taking important jobs away from America. If Airbus wins the future tanker program for the USAF they will produce all the aircraft in the US, that how they are going to win contracts.

 

[tphuang]

I believe a hotted up F-15E+ would likely be superior to J-10, J-11, Su-30 etc, as these are all fourth gen designs without the benefits of AESA, integrated EW and sensor suites, and a mature AWACS support etc, although there's little doubt the F-15 is at its aerodynamic and performance limits. The Super Hornet, although probably aerodyamically inferior to the F-15 and the Chinese jets I mentioned, has even more advanced avionics/sensor/EW suites and more growth to come.

The flankers we got from Russians have pretty archaic radar and avionics in general. But it seems to me that the avionics development over the past few years have been quite rapid for PLAAF. It is in my opinion only a matter of time before they have the technology to cheaply mass produce the T/R modules needed for AESA radar. You can see all of the new platforms coming out in China using various types of AESA radar.

 

[contedicavour]

The whole problem with Japan buying F-22's is that they would want to produce a large amount of the aircraft in Japan. The USAF doesn't trust Japanese aircraft industry to keep the raptor's secrets. Like in previous posts the N. Koreans have been very adapt at putting spy's into Japan, probably China and Russia as well. If F-22's were produced in Japan there would spy's running around the factories like crazy. I am sure if the Japanese were willing to buy F-22's without producing any part of the aircraft, they mite (I stress mite!) get to buy Raptors. Lockheed Martin has too much political pull in the Congress really even to let something like that happen any ways. In America we're are worried about shipping jobs overseas. If Japan built Raptors that would be taking important jobs away from America. If Airbus wins the future tanker program for the USAF they will produce all the aircraft in the US, that how they are going to win contracts.

Intresting perspective. Since I doubt the Japanese are ready to buy off the shelf F22s, then the F22 option is probably dead on arrival.
Joining the F35 makes a lot more sense. Japanese industry could join and share production.

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Intresting perspective. Since I doubt the Japanese are ready to buy off the shelf F22s, then the F22 option is probably dead on arrival.

Well if the Americans can't trust the Japanese I doubt they'll trust anyone. Their loss, because the Japanese would only buy if they could get part of the work.

Joining the F35 makes a lot more sense. Japanese industry could join and share production.

Yeah - Japan should sign up ASAP. It's a very good plane, and Japan will be able to field them in much greater numbers than it possibly could the F-22.

 

[Scorpion82]

According to my information Japan currently considers the F-15FX (what ever this version will look like), F-22, Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. They want to replace their F-4EJ Kai from 2010 onwards (not the F-15 AFAIK).
The new fighter is intended to take over the air defence role and not anything else.
Traditionally Japan bought US made weapons or operated indingous designs partly developed in ccoperation. The american influence is quite large in this country. That makes the situation much more worse for the european contenders. On the other side the F-22 isn't cleared for export and buying a F-15 derivate after 2010 would be a stupid idea in my opinion, this aircraft is simply to old, the world wide reducing F-15 fleet might cause problems in terms of in service support over the entire service life and compareably high upgrade costs.
As Japan has indicated to delay its eventual decision leading to delays in the procurement the F-35 enters the game. But I'm not sure if the F-35 or maybe even the F/A-18E/F would be a good choice for a nation that requires ADFs.

Even with stealth and the most advanced avionics it wouldn't help you if the aircraft is to slow to intercept time sensitive threats. The Raptor would be the best but also most expensive choice and as it isn't cleared for exports Japan should look for alternatives. Maybe its time for a change and the Japanese should buy european fighters.

 

[Distiller]

#1: Japan has to get rid of the 1% defense budget limit. That is vital. (And to get The Bomb, but that's a different story).

@ Fighter selection:
- Optimum/dreamy solution would be a license production of the F-22. Even some in the U.S. military establishment could be happy with a second (slow) production line of F-22. Obey is a nutter.
And more dreamy stuff: Rolling development/upgrades of that (slow) Japanese production line.
Not gonna happen.

- Also good: If not producing them, then buying them. Everything that keep the line open is good. Obey is a nutter.

- Realistic option: F-35A (with C big wing?). Still leaves the problem of the fighter, since the F-35 is not a fighter, never will be, even as A with C wing.

- All other options are no options, can't hold themselves against hord of Su-27 derivates, or are too short-legged. Doubt that Japan currently has the know-how to produce a fighter from scratch. F-2 don't count, was a US-dictated desaster.


Hi by the way everybody. First post here. "My" other forum is dying. This here seems more alive. Cheers! - "Distiller"

 

[Crusader2000]

My take is both the F-22 and F-35 will be sold to Japan at some point in the future. First, I see the Raptor being purchased in small numbers directly from the US. (as they won't allow Japan to license manufacture it) Closely, followed by Lightnings built in Japan............ we may even see a small number of STOVL F-35 for the JMSDF

 

[swerve]

#1: Japan has to get rid of the 1% defense budget limit. That is vital. (And to get The Bomb, but that's a different story).
...
Hi by the way everybody. First post here. "My" other forum is dying. This here seems more alive. Cheers! - "Distiller"

1) A question of politics. Got the technical ability, got the fissile material (a few tons of plutonium declared to the IAEA).

2) Welcome.

 

[contedicavour]

The only way to get Typhoons sold to Japan would be to get Japanese manufacturers (starting with Mitsubishi) into the EADS group's stock with a significant %. Daimler is getting out, which leaves space for new entrants.
Japanese manufacturers could build parts of the jet and of plenty of other civilian birds (A350 for instance). A sort of Euro-Japanese alliance.

I'd still bet more on F35s though

Btw, Japan should change its spec : by now they do need fighterbombers, not pure air defence fighters ! The JSDF are evolving fast into full blown armed forces and Parliament has even reinstated a Minister of Defence (previously JSDF was an Agency, below ministerial status). Shouldn't be hard to justify procurement of a real fighterbomber with cruise missiles.

cheers

 

[chrisrobsoar]

The only way to get Typhoons sold to Japan would be to get Japanese manufacturers (starting with Mitsubishi) into the EADS group's stock with a significant %. Daimler is getting out, which leaves space for new entrants.
Japanese manufacturers could build parts of the jet and of plenty of other civilian birds (A350 for instance). A sort of Euro-Japanese alliance.

I'd still bet more on F35s though

Btw, Japan should change its spec : by now they do need fighterbombers, not pure air defence fighters ! The JSDF are evolving fast into full blown armed forces and Parliament has even reinstated a Minister of Defence (previously JSDF was an Agency, below ministerial status). Shouldn't be hard to justify procurement of a real fighterbomber with cruise missiles.

cheers

Please explain you under standing of “Daimler” holdings in Eurofighter (EADS) and provide a link to where it has been announced that they are getting out.

And provide any insight you may has as to possible Japanese involvement,

At present EADS control about 75% of Eurofighter, which manufactures the Typhoon (the remainder is held by BAE Systems).

So you may choose to re-word "getting out".



Chris

 

[turin]

The only way to get Typhoons sold to Japan would be to get Japanese manufacturers (starting with Mitsubishi) into the EADS group's stock with a significant %. Daimler is getting out, which leaves space for new entrants.


cheers

DaimlerChrysler is not getting out. They sold 7,5 % of their stake in EADS, however the german government wont allow any major transfer away from german corporations/holdings (i.e. influence), so the share went to a mixed public/private holding in Germany. DaimlerChrysler is still having a share of 22,5 %.

Older statement on the issue:
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0-5-7153-1-603636-1-0-0-0-0-0-9293-7145-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html

 

[contedicavour]

Please explain you under standing of “Daimler” holdings in Eurofighter (EADS) and provide a link to where it has been announced that they are getting out.

And provide any insight you may has as to possible Japanese involvement,

At present EADS control about 75% of Eurofighter, which manufactures the Typhoon (the remainder is held by BAE Systems).

So you may choose to re-word "getting out".



Chris

As Turin writes below, DaimlerChrysler has started disengaging from EADS, though yes for the moment only 7.5% of shares have been sold and the German govt is trying to keep those shares in German hands.
Though think about a couple of things :
- Daimler is in relatively dire straits with a Mercedes division in bad shape, Smart which is a disaster, and Chrysler which is losing millions of dollars in a very dangerous spiral.
- The German govt wants to keep those shares German simply to equilibrate the French share (public & private).
Now imagine a deal can be found to sell a limited (5-10%) share from both German and French shares - or to run a capital increase by issuing new shares - to big Japanese aerospace companies. Daimler would be happy to get cash back to restructure properly, the German govt would be ok, EADS would get more cash (if new shares are issued) to develop the A350 and would even ward off recent Russian interests...

cheers

 

[Dr Phobus]

Interesting discussion, What about Eurofigther, its range, overperformance, supercrusie, swing role capability would be a good purchase. I'd imagine this would be done along with F-35. With exspanding chinese and russian figther capabilities the Japanese need to be more creative than just soley looking to the USA for all there figther needs (granted they tried to and failed with the F-2), espiecally when the American government does not want to sell its top-of-the-line figther, the F-22.

Of course italy as made some inroads with the EH101/AB139, maybe this is the start ?

 

[rjmaz1]

I personally think that Japan could help keep the JSF program afloat by placing a big order.

JSF is going to struggle unless it can get some big international orders.

300 F-35A's could be acheived and the JSF can perform the majority of missions. As the 300 aircraft would be purchased over 10-15 years it would replace the older aircraft first.

I can definitely see Japan placing an order for the JSF if it reachs its design goals. It seems the JSF will hit all targets except price. So it wont be too bad at all.

The F-22 is exceptional, however even Japan could only afford a squadron or two. It would be easier to buy off the shelf JSF in much greater numbers. This would offset any performance gap.

 

[Scorpion82]

I personally think that Japan could help keep the JSF program afloat by placing a big order.

JSF is going to struggle unless it can get some big international orders.

300 F-35A's could be acheived and the JSF can perform the majority of missions. As the 300 aircraft would be purchased over 10-15 years it would replace the older aircraft first.

I can definitely see Japan placing an order for the JSF if it reachs its design goals. It seems the JSF will hit all targets except price. So it wont be too bad at all.

The F-22 is exceptional, however even Japan could only afford a squadron or two. It would be easier to buy off the shelf JSF in much greater numbers. This would offset any performance gap.

Japan needs to replace its F-4EJ in the not to distant future. It is unlikely that the F-35 will be available for Japan in the required timeframe and at an acceptable price. Furthermore Japan is looking for an airdefence fighter and the F-35 is less suited for this task by design. Though it won't be bad at all I think other fighters with better performance would be more effective in that role.

 

[Occum]

What Will Be The Real Price Of The Jsf

Latest advice from John Harvey on the pricing of the JSF for Australia reads - see first attachment.


Maybe this forum could ask John to fill in the blanks in the attached table, based upon the definitions he provided to the JSCFADT inquiry, so that his fellow Australians can see what they will really be up for in terms of JSF costs.

 

[PETER671BT]

You probably find that japan will consider,f-22 sooner than latter,for what usa intel says.North korea problems and the usa has just sign through that japan can start looking at building aircarriers back to counter the china and russia allance.

 

[turin]

Interesting discussion, What about Eurofigther, its range, overperformance, supercrusie, swing role capability would be a good purchase. I'd imagine this would be done along with F-35.

A Tranche 3-EF with CFTs and AESA would be a good solution IMO. Why bother with purchasing F-35 then at all, since the EF can fill the same gap of A2G-capability.

Not going to happen for political and economical reasons though. Japan is just too good a market for F-35 and maybe F-22. So sure thing the US will do everything they can in order to keep them as a customer. They already softened their stance on F-22 exports for that very reason.