How to counter stealth plane?

[killbill2]

But dont a/c like F-22 raptors generate x amounts of electromagnetic fields around them, by this rationale wouldnt it be able to develop missile seekers that can pick up such signitures.

Well yea when they communicate and use radar they use EM emissions and those could be tracked . You just need good SIgInt/Elint and anti radaion seeker. However aircraft like the F 22 and B-2 use an LPI radar to make it difficult for sigint/elint sensors and anti radiation sesnors to pick them up. They also use low power communications and if necessary can use a receive only datalink, shut off radars and use IRST's in a pure stealth mode if ever required.

 

[Viktor]

As the title suggest,can anyone of u give an idea how to How to counter stealth plane?I have my own idea but let see others idea first.

Buy S-400 sistem. LOL
Serbs actualy down 2-3 F-117 and 2more where havy damaged. One war forced to land in Zagreb airport.
Stealth only reduces radar eficienty and that only works for small array of frequences for whitch RAM was optimized.
US uses pasiv stealth unlike pasiv and activ(plasma, reduces signature by factor of 100 and apparently is not even finished and is having some problems at the moment) stealth whitch Russia is developing.
Problem with all Countries and specialy US casaulties is that real numbers will appear only 50 years later as was in Korean war, NATO had a tactics to use its cruise missiles to destroy falen planes so none left overs could e recover + the reason for the lost of so many planes where such tactics in whitch all NATO planes had same trajectory and at same time flyed over same area.

 

[killbill2]

Buy S-400 sistem. LOL
Serbs actualy down 2-3 F-117 and 2more where havy damaged. One war forced to land in Zagreb airport.

Curious as to where you got your information. was shot down and 1 was damaged. There have ebnn crashes due to mechanical problems though.The S400 has got to be one of the most misunderstood system I've come acroos. Most people beleive it's more capable than it actually is.

Stealth only reduces radar eficienty and that only works for small array of frequences for whitch RAM was optimized.

You obviously don't know to what scale it reduces efficiency.You'd be surprised how many frequencies stealth can effective work in with the advent of contoured stealth(B-2,F 22,X 47,X 45 etc). RAM is only a fraction of the technology and stealth is not just radar

US uses pasiv stealth unlike pasiv and activ(plasma, reduces signature by factor of 100 and apparently is not even finished and is having some problems at the moment) stealth whitch Russia is developing.

Yes i've heard of plama stealth.

Problem with all Countries and specialy US casaulties is that real numbers will appear only 50 years later as was in Korean war, NATO had a tactics to use its cruise missiles to destroy falen planes so none left overs could e recover + the reason for the lost of so many planes where such tactics in whitch all NATO planes had same trajectory and at same time flyed over same area.

And I assume that's for all conflicts.We all know the tough time Russia had with Afghanistan and Chechnya. Until then we can only work with the numbers we have from official sources.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

I've heard about the plasma shield too, but it was reported that it works with a high amount of energy and could perturb the radio communications and radar emissions of the equipped aircraft itself, that's quite normal. It must depends where on the aircraft the plasma's generators are located, and with a the whole aircraft's surface covered, it is more efficient than passive stealth.
I think that the main utilisation of plasm stealth is not to make tha aircraft permanently stealth, it is rather a device which could be used to evade an incoming radar -guided missile or to not be locked on during dog fight.

 

[killbill2]

I've heard about the plasma shield too, but it was reported that it works with a high amount of energy and could perturb the radio communications and radar emissions of the equipped aircraft itself, that's quite normal. It must depends where on the aircraft the plasma's generators are located, and with a the whole aircraft's surface covered, it is more efficient than passive stealth.
I think that the main utilisation of plasm stealth is not to make tha aircraft permanently stealth, it is rather a device which could be used to evade an incoming radar -guided missile or to not be locked on during dog fight.

Yea but only reduces the factor by a 100 and comes off at high sppeds/sharp turns. not to mention you need toa djust ionization levels to counter specific bands.

 

[Viktor]

Yea but only reduces the factor by a 100 and comes off at high sppeds/sharp turns. not to mention you need toa djust ionization levels to counter specific bands.

What you said is correct but it has not jet reached operational status, and even now is capable of 100x factor reduction with some problems. I think eventualy such problems will be solved and device instaled on PAK-FA and posibly on some earlier versions. Imagine having it on F-22. :gun Device has being tested recently on Su-35.

 

[killbill2]

What you said is correct but it has not jet reached operational status, and even now is capable of 100x factor reduction with some problems. I think eventualy such problems will be solved and device instaled on PAK-FA and posibly on some earlier versions. Imagine having it on F-22. :gun Device has being tested recently on Su-35.

Hopefully soon it can be perfected. I think the F 35 can generate the power for it not the F/A 22(Lift fan).

 

[PommeDeGuerre]

Would it be possible to watch for holes or distortions in the background radiation from space?

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

Would it be possible to watch for holes or distortions in the background radiation from space?

Perhaps, but it is more a problem of mathematic analyse and computation. Because you need of a super-computer assisting the passive aray in space, in order to interprete the change in EM background. Plus other "natural" jamming like sun eruptions, gamma flash coming from space, etc etc...

 

[Totoro]

I dunno if it was mentioned before but another, however limited, possibility is to rely on the RCS spikes. Every surface of stealth plane gives out full radar return (sans absorbed part) from a certain angle. One of mainstays of radar stealth design is allingment of various antennas/probes and other small objects that are integral part of a combat system and are protruding from the otherwise smooth fuselage to be aligned with bigger surfaces in such a way that they give a return from only few angles.

While in the past no care was payed to them as RCS given by the other parts of the plane was far bigger, once they became a proportionally big source of radar return all of the stealth planes (including f22 and f35) were designed in such a way that all of those small protruding elements are facing as few differnt sides as possible, ideally make them all face a single side and give a direct radar return when hit from only one, precise angle.

In practice, that means instead of getting many small spikes of radar return as the plane is flying around/over/alongside the radar thats monitoring it - that radar would get maybe one or two large spikes. While giving out a proportionally huge RCS at that one moment, overall such tactic is much better as you basically get just a momentary flash of a target, instead of series of glints as it goes along its path, making it more trackable.

BUT. If the mission of the stealth plane is a deep strike, where it has to go into the enemy radar network - say a b2 or f22 carrying jdams or SDBs - those spikes are a sure thing. It is virtually guaranteed that a radar will get at least one and probably two such spikes from one target if the target passes by it, over an arc of 120 or more degrees. Now that alone is still not very useful if you want to even begin to track planes. But, if you carefully position a network of radars over the area that attacker has to fly through, integrating them into a system where the computer knows where each radar is and is getting raw data from each radar, then it can use all that data, all those various spikes and compute a more accurate picture with far more points along plane's path where it was detected by its spike.

Granted, that's still only partial tracking, it won't give you a firing solution for radar guided SAMs, but it will offer better odds for your defence network as you'll be able to vector in your fighters to a right area to find a stealth plane. Alternatively, if you have enough spikes in a given time to get a really precise path, lets say update of course every 10-20 secs or so, you could even try launching a fair number of LOAL IIR missiles at a general area, hoping one or more would lock on the target and destroy it.

In the end, its far from a perfect solution but i believe it provides for a valid alternative for partial tracking that long wave radars give. Benefit is that one can use smaller, much more mobile radars for such network compare to long wave radars. Downside is price/manpower needed for a vast number of radars needed and maintaing such an integrated network.

 

[killbill2]

Would it be possible to watch for holes or distortions in the background radiation from space?

gamm rays,Xrays, UV rays etc are absorbed by either the atmosphere or the magnetosphere and whatever does got hrough will be difficult to get especially with natural jammers like the sun etc. :flash

 

[killbill2]

I dunno if it was mentioned before but another, however limited, possibility is to rely on the RCS spikes. Every surface of stealth plane gives out full radar return (sans absorbed part) from a certain angle. One of mainstays of radar stealth design is allingment of various antennas/probes and other small objects that are integral part of a combat system and are protruding from the otherwise smooth fuselage to be aligned with bigger surfaces in such a way that they give a return from only few angles.

While in the past no care was payed to them as RCS given by the other parts of the plane was far bigger, once they became a proportionally big source of radar return all of the stealth planes (including f22 and f35) were designed in such a way that all of those small protruding elements are facing as few differnt sides as possible, ideally make them all face a single side and give a direct radar return when hit from only one, precise angle.

In practice, that means instead of getting many small spikes of radar return as the plane is flying around/over/alongside the radar thats monitoring it - that radar would get maybe one or two large spikes. While giving out a proportionally huge RCS at that one moment, overall such tactic is much better as you basically get just a momentary flash of a target, instead of series of glints as it goes along its path, making it more trackable.

BUT. If the mission of the stealth plane is a deep strike, where it has to go into the enemy radar network - say a b2 or f22 carrying jdams or SDBs - those spikes are a sure thing. It is virtually guaranteed that a radar will get at least one and probably two such spikes from one target if the target passes by it, over an arc of 120 or more degrees. Now that alone is still not very useful if you want to even begin to track planes. But, if you carefully position a network of radars over the area that attacker has to fly through, integrating them into a system where the computer knows where each radar is and is getting raw data from each radar, then it can use all that data, all those various spikes and compute a more accurate picture with far more points along plane's path where it was detected by its spike.

Granted, that's still only partial tracking, it won't give you a firing solution for radar guided SAMs, but it will offer better odds for your defence network as you'll be able to vector in your fighters to a right area to find a stealth plane. Alternatively, if you have enough spikes in a given time to get a really precise path, lets say update of course every 10-20 secs or so, you could even try launching a fair number of LOAL IIR missiles at a general area, hoping one or more would lock on the target and destroy it.

In the end, its far from a perfect solution but i believe it provides for a valid alternative for partial tracking that long wave radars give. Benefit is that one can use smaller, much more mobile radars for such network compare to long wave radars. Downside is price/manpower needed for a vast number of radars needed and maintaing such an integrated network.

You still have to worry about things like scintillation. Stealth aircraft lobe the beam and carry it to a specific parts on the plane. The narrower the lobes and the fewer the lobes and the more the scintillation the more difficult a target is to track/get a lock on or even detect.Even a little scintillation can throw off a cruise misisle by a considerbale amount last i read. The stealthier the plane the less and more narrow the lobes will be including greater scintillation so tracking it will be difficult. If you watch Stealth Secrets on discovery they show radar spikes on a B-2 and a huge amount of it is diverted away so I doubt spikes will be that effective. Although I do like the idea of using a long wave radar and then using LOAL IIR missiles or planes. However with raptor os JSF escorts I highly doubt those planes will last. And if theres an ABL or JSF armed with a 100kw laser (capability of JSF being tested in 2010) then it will be even harder for the missile to get through. And if you factor in standoff jammers like the EB 52,EA 18G, EA 6B, IR jammers.EO jammers then it becomes more difficult. However I think it would work on stealth aircraft without the support I mentioned. Great post man, a lot more intelligent then what some people post here not to name any names though.!

 

[PommeDeGuerre]

gamm rays,Xrays, UV rays etc are absorbed by either the atmosphere or the magnetosphere and whatever does got hrough will be difficult to get especially with natural jammers like the sun etc. :flash

I don't know how consistant the radiation coming in is, but I was just thinking it might be possible look for sudden drops in the intensities, so the level wouldn't need to be overly consistant, and the sun wouldn't necessarily interfere either (since you'd basically be looking for a silhouette in the first place) especially since the drop would fit a certain profile (ie moving at high speeds). I guess the computing power would need to be immense and the quality of equipment extremely high.

But I guess that idea's probably too far out there to be on topic even if it is technically possible in the first place.

 

[Totoro]

Well, bottom line would be that countering stealth is much better off when you're putting up a network of systems versus stealth, rather than just one magic bullet system. And i don't mean just a network of similar radars - but a network of sensory systems of various kinds. long wave radars, multistatic short wave radar network, ground based IIR sensors, various tamara-like sensors, etc. Of course, key being that all the data from all the sensors must be integrated, otherwise you're not really doing much.

Again, while making your chances of partially tracking a stealth plane higher, it'd require quite an investment plus it'd work best only in a defensive scenario where stealth planes are going over your land, into your sensor network. AtoA fight over netural territory, for example, against f22s would still be helluva lot tougher to pull off, though theoretically there too one could have long wave radars on certain specialized aircraft. (which i imagine would have to be quite big and quite slow)

Just to reply, scintillation was always a problem during radar's history, and while stealth uses it to its advantage to a degree, radar software also goes forward. Not all of the spike would get scintillated, plus the more sensors you have in the network the easier it is for your computing centers to determin how much correction and in which directions you have to make - to get a more true picture of enemy's position.

In the end, while possible, countering stealth on a regular basis needs money. Stealth itself is expensive but countering it needs vast amounts of investment too. The kind of money that most of economies in the world simply can't afford. You can't get something for nothing.

 

[LtDragon]

Stealth defense...counter??? Make your assets stealthy..hidden I meant, if the stealth planes can't detect you they can't hit you...

 

[onslaught]

in an air to air combat situation (say an F-22 against some other plane), the F-22 would need to rely on an AWACS to find the other planes

if the F-22 turned on its radar, it would give away its position (and this goes for all planes whether they are stealth or not)

if a plane could down the AWACS, it would make it that much easier to shoot down the F-22

there's always the option of heat-seeking missiles if you manage to find any sort of stealth plane

 

[Big-E]

in an air to air combat situation (say an F-22 against some other plane), the F-22 would need to rely on an AWACS to find the other planes

if the F-22 turned on its radar, it would give away its position (and this goes for all planes whether they are stealth or not)

if a plane could down the AWACS, it would make it that much easier to shoot down the F-22

there's always the option of heat-seeking missiles if you manage to find any sort of stealth plane

Have you ever heard of passive radar?

 

[Grand Danois]

in an air to air combat situation (say an F-22 against some other plane), the F-22 would need to rely on an AWACS to find the other planes

if the F-22 turned on its radar, it would give away its position (and this goes for all planes whether they are stealth or not)

if a plane could down the AWACS, it would make it that much easier to shoot down the F-22

there's always the option of heat-seeking missiles if you manage to find any sort of stealth plane

LPI (low probability of intercept) radar at which AESA's excel. Hard to detect. The F-22 would be very unlucky to give away its position this way.

Heat signature management is part of the stealth technology.

 

[onslaught]

i heard someone say that doppler radar would work

i'm not so sure though

Have you ever heard of passive radar?

slipped my mind...sry

Admin: Please avoid back to back posts. Merge them together rather than post separately.

 

[gf0012-aust]

in an air to air combat situation (say an F-22 against some other plane), the F-22 would need to rely on an AWACS to find the other planes

they don't have to rely on an AWACs

if the F-22 turned on its radar, it would give away its position (and this goes for all planes whether they are stealth or not)

passive radar.....

if a plane could down the AWACS, it would make it that much easier to shoot down the F-22

except they don't need necessarily to have an AWACs in the loop

there's always the option of heat-seeking missiles if you manage to find any sort of stealth plane

part of sig management for stealth platforms includes managing the IR signature.