Singapore to acquire Leopard 2A4s

K

kotay

Member
From MINDEF press release ... http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2006/dec/11dec06_nr2.html

Singapore Set to Acquire Leopard Tanks from Germany

The Singapore Ministry of Defence and the German Federal Ministry of Defence intend to agree upon the sale of Leopard 2A4 tanks from the German Armed Forces to the Singapore Armed Forces.

The acquisition package will consist of 66 Leopard 2A4 tanks together with 30 spare tanks and supporting equipment. Training on the Leopard tanks will be provided by the German Army.

This acquisition underscores the good defence relationship between Germany and Singapore.

_______________________________________________________________

Overall I think this is a good decision on 3 fronts ...
i) The Leo II is IMHO a very capable but often under-rated platform.
ii) Like our submarine pruchases, they represent very good value for money given the threat environment we operate in.
iiI) From what I've read, the German Army represents the best organisation from whom we can learn relevant MBT operations from ... more so than the Israelis.

On a sidenote ... It also is certainly interesting that the Tempest (upgraded Centurions) still remain a "secret" ... one must wonder if it ever was :confused: Would be one of the best disinformation program there ever was if that should prove true ...
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
kotay said:
From MINDEF press release ... http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2006/dec/11dec06_nr2.html

Singapore Set to Acquire Leopard Tanks from Germany

The Singapore Ministry of Defence and the German Federal Ministry of Defence intend to agree upon the sale of Leopard 2A4 tanks from the German Armed Forces to the Singapore Armed Forces.

The acquisition package will consist of 66 Leopard 2A4 tanks together with 30 spare tanks and supporting equipment. Training on the Leopard tanks will be provided by the German Army.

This acquisition underscores the good defence relationship between Germany and Singapore.

_______________________________________________________________

Overall I think this is a good decision on 3 fronts ...
i) The Leo II is IMHO a very capable but often under-rated platform.
ii) Like our submarine pruchases, they represent very good value for money given the threat environment we operate in.
iiI) From what I've read, the German Army represents the best organisation from whom we can learn relevant MBT operations from ... more so than the Israelis.
On a sidenote ... It also is certainly interesting that the Tempest (upgraded Centurions) still remain a "secret" ... one must wonder if it ever was :confused: Would be one of the best disinformation program there ever was if that should prove true ...
Click to expand...
It is interesting as a matter of perspective that Singapore is purchasing 96 MBTs and Australia 59 :(
 
K

kotay

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
FutureTank said:
It is interesting as a matter of perspective that Singapore is purchasing 96 MBTs and Australia 59 :(
Click to expand...
To quote someone from a forum I'm not allowed to link to ...

My friend, I think we all know one M-1 Abrams is worth 100 T-64/72/84/84/90/XX.

Add to that these M-1s are crewed by Australians and I think you'll agree these sixty tanks will be the equal of several Guards Tank Divisions. Even the joint Siberian/Ural manned ones.

For we all know that if those 60 Abrams had Kiwi crews then they would quite simply be an unstoppable military force the likes of which the world has never seen.
Click to expand...
Fret not :D
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
kotay said:
On a sidenote ... It also is certainly interesting that the Tempest (upgraded Centurions) still remain a "secret" ... one must wonder if it ever was :confused: Would be one of the best disinformation program there ever was if that should prove true ...
Click to expand...
I've always wondered how singapore was able to successfully "hide" 100+ MBT's. :rolleyes:
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
kotay said:
To quote someone from a forum I'm not allowed to link to ...

Quote:
My friend, I think we all know one M-1 Abrams is worth 100 T-64/72/84/84/90/XX.

Add to that these M-1s are crewed by Australians and I think you'll agree these sixty tanks will be the equal of several Guards Tank Divisions. Even the joint Siberian/Ural manned ones.

For we all know that if those 60 Abrams had Kiwi crews then they would quite simply be an unstoppable military force the likes of which the world has never seen.


Fret not :D
Click to expand...
It's BS in a big way. ALL we have for comparison in the use of M1 is the Iraqi Army...that's Army without Air Force :)
Exectly how well would the US Army do without Air Force participation in battle. Now take away the sattelite communications. Now replace C3I with the 70s version operated by people selected for loyalty to Republican party. Now make most of them conscripts.

Are my painting a picture for you here? ;)

Now I recall NZ had tank units in WW2. Are there legends writen about them?

Australian tankers are professionals, and as professionals they are a better kind of soldier, but they are not superhuman. Moreover they fight within a complex and soon to be "hardened and networked" team composed of all Arms and Services. It is this that gives Australian Army the reputation that it has. I suspect that had NZ Army not been allowed to run down, and had NZ retained an Air Force, they too would be in same position.

:)
 
K

kotay

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
FutureTank said:
It's BS in a big way. ALL we have for comparison in the use of M1 is the Iraqi Army...that's Army without Air Force :)
Exectly how well would the US Army do without Air Force participation in battle. Now take away the sattelite communications. Now replace C3I with the 70s version operated by people selected for loyalty to Republican party. Now make most of them conscripts.

Are my painting a picture for you here? ;)

Now I recall NZ had tank units in WW2. Are there legends writen about them?

Australian tankers are professionals, and as professionals they are a better kind of soldier, but they are not superhuman. Moreover they fight within a complex and soon to be "hardened and networked" team composed of all Arms and Services. It is this that gives Australian Army the reputation that it has. I suspect that had NZ Army not been allowed to run down, and had NZ retained an Air Force, they too would be in same position.

:)
Click to expand...
Bugger me, maybe I didn't put in enough smilies ...

I thought it was tongue in cheek humour that an Aussie would understand ... and maybe appreciate ;)

I certainly expected some sledging in return ... not a lecture :p
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
kotay said:
Bugger me, maybe I didn't put in enough smilies ...

I thought it was tongue in cheek humour that an Aussie would understand ... and maybe appreciate ;)

I certainly expected some sledging in return ... not a lecture :p
Click to expand...
yep, more smilies :)
 
K

kotay

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
I believe aaaditya is working on the assumption that the SAFs AoO is mainly Urban or Jungle.

Either I'm wrong about his premise or he's very wrong about the above
 
W

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
For sure the deep jungle is not the best area for a Leo II but it it neither for any other tank.
Any other areas (including cities) a Leo has no problems (Not more than others) and its mobility is quite good.

The environment in Singapore is the reason for MBTs being not their main force but a small contingent suits well into the niche.

And you hardly will find a tank which gives you as much bang for your money like german surplus Leopard IIA4.

And there are also good possibilities to upgrade them in the future.

I also don't see a problem with Singapore having a conscriptors army.
We have this for decades and you will hardly find a comment about a maneuver with other NATO professional armies were we did not executed well in armored warfare.
The higher ranks remain professionals with the normal crew being conscriptors.
Take into account that in a conscriptors army the normal private is often more clever than in a professional army.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
kotay said:
I believe aaaditya is working on the assumption that the SAFs AoO is mainly Urban or Jungle.

Either I'm wrong about his premise or he's very wrong about the above
Click to expand...
Not much jungle left near Singapore (West Malaysia & the nearer parts of Indonesia have too many people & too much agriculture for that), & in any case, they might have a reason to fight somewhere else one day. As for urban - well, I've always understood Singapores policy as being to keep any fighting away from their own crowded little territory if at all possible.
 
W

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
They should consider to do some basic upgrades to their Leos.
The Leo IIA4 has no air condition and I don't want to sit in a tank in a subtropical area without air condition (And the electronic also...).
 
P

.pt

New Member
That implies that most other professional armies have in their ranks more "not so smart" individuals, than conscript armies. I´m not so sure that is true. in a conscript army you get everything, from genius to moron, almost deficient types.
I imagine in a professional army the standard is a bit higher. At least the soldier must be able to understand orders and execute them, as well as utilize properly its equipment.
No A/C on those things? if they don´t upgrade they will boil inside.
.pt
 
Last edited:
E

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Waylander said:
They should consider to do some basic upgrades to their Leos.
The Leo IIA4 has no air condition and I don't want to sit in a tank in a subtropical area without air condition (And the electronic also...).
Click to expand...
You have a NBC over pressure system in the LEO2A4 correct?
 
T

Ths

Banned Member
Waylander:
There are few nations that have been able to make a conscription army work well in peace time - except the Germans. A well trained and educated workforce might have something to do with it; but that is hardly the whole explanation, the rest of the explanation ....
I simply don't know!

As to quality: Let me say that the purchase of the Danish army of the Leo 1 and 2 are in my view one of their (few) bright moments.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top