Is NATO a military dinosaur?

[Ths]

Sorry Waylander I didn't have the opportunity to see You had the seal between Your orca maxillia and mandibula.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Others may think that not every NATO nation is obliged to help in any conflict that involves a NATO country but I do.

I think you're being a bit harsh - or generalising a bit.

eg France does do some significant background work in the war against terrorism. They've recently signed new antiterrorism and maritime protection treaties witrh australia. they have exchange personnel at both the operational and intel level in some of our structures. they certainly have been busy picking up air-leg work in afghanistan.

ditto for the dutch - they are a very very solid outfit - and have a joint marine command in place with the UK - they are thus one of the few that can actually boast that they train for expeditionary warfare and are able to moxy up with the right people and kit to do the job. they are in the thick of it in afghanistan.

the problem for the smaller baltics is mixing NATO participation with the demands of having populations that still may have slavic connections with the bear that lives next door. To get into NATO requires them to change their force structures - and for poor nations this is not an overnight success. hence you will get situations where (eg) germany gives poland all of her Mig29's and support structure "gratis" (t/f sale of 1 euro).

The other baltics allow NATO overflight patrols into their airspace as they can ill afford to undergo change as well as maintain and develop NATO compliant air forces. They offset these limitations by picking up some of the ground work jobs.

Vey few NATO members have critical mass to be able to support theatre - let alone split theatre events, so they selectively inject their resources into the most immediate area of support benefit. That often means interlinked capabilities with other members so as to offset perceived weaknesses.

 

[Waylander]

@USNavySEAL3310

A-stan is not ME so you should not mix both areas. Especially not with Iraq being far away from being a NATO mission and A-stan being on of the major NATO operations.

Some of your comments:

France for one is not contributing militarily to the Middle East conflict.

As gf said they are participating in many fields which are not that obvious and they are participating in A-stan directly with nearly 1.000 soldiers. Just recently one of their special operations teams got their stomachs cut open by OMFs.

Though they have had good relations and trade agreements with some of the terrorists the coalition is dealing with now, they continue to give political reasons for not aiding their NATO ally, the U.S..

Sources for the terror relation? This is a big statement which you should support with hard facts. They are working hard with their intelligence and police services against terrorism in europe and the rest of the world.
And were do they not participate in the war against terrorism? Despite the Iraq adventure...

I think Turkey lets NATO forces use its bases and Germany has launched some air raids.

Every NATO base can be used by NATO allies and Germany launched no air raids.

Others may think that not every NATO nation is obliged to help in any conflict that involves a NATO country but I do.

This is your opinion of an alliance? Do you want the rest to follow blindly when a member is doing an oversea adventure?
Every NATO operation aside a direct conventional attack onto one of the members does not and should not result in automatisms.
Or do you want the rest to follow blindly Italy when they decide to liberate Croatia (Just a pure fictional example) or Germany deciding to attack Namibia, etc.?
This would be the kind of automatism you seem to want.

 

[RubiconNZ]

As gf said they are participating in many fields which are not that obvious and they are participating in A-stan directly with nearly 1.000 soldiers.

Hmm this I was not aware of, my fault for not paying attention but some extra positive press on this would not go astray. Perhaps there is some reluctance to acknowledge this from either side of the Alliance.

And where do they not participate in the war against terrorism? Despite the Iraq adventure...

How diplomatic of you

This is your opinion of an alliance? Do you want the rest to follow blindly when a member is doing an oversea adventure?
Every NATO operation aside a direct conventional attack onto one of the members does not and should not result in automatisms.
Or do you want the rest to follow blindly Italy when they decide to liberate Croatia (Just a pure fictional example) or Germany deciding to attack Namibia, etc.?
This would be the kind of automatism you seem to want.

You might be right about France and a couple of others; but Your swing at the Baltic Nations was severely uncalled for.

Just remember IIRC that NavySeal3310 is still in High school eager to join the service so idealism is a plenty.

 

[Waylander]

I hope I am known for my sensible way of speaking.
But it already hurts that I am the one needing to defend the french.

Just remember IIRC that NavySeal3310 is still in Highschool eager to join the service so idealism is a plenty.

Whoa, ARMY STRONG! :nutkick

But you are right, idealism is needed especially when you begin to face the amount of Bullshit going on in every armed forces.
Sometimes I have the feeling that Yankees have too much of it and we have not enough.
The middle would be a good way.

 

[RubiconNZ]

I hope I am known for my sensible way of speaking.
But it already hurts that I am the one needing to defend the french.

Yes when I read it, I thought GO EU!!!

But you are right, idealism is needed especially when you begin to face the amount of Bullshit going on in every armed forces.
Sometimes I have the feeling that Yankees have too much of it and we have not enough.
The middle would be a good way.

Here a little bit more of middle ness would go along way in for everyone. :xmas

 

[USNavySEAL3310]

I had a lot more to post but decided against it.

Then if I'm wrong, I'm sorry and will research it, though most of what I'd said I'd read in articles at one point or another from various sources.

If my being in high school is going to effect the way my posts that include my views are viewed then I'll write less and present facts and no opinions.

 

[RubiconNZ]

I had a lot more to post but decided against it.

Then if I'm wrong, I'm sorry and will research it, though most of what I'd said I'd read in articles at one point or another from various sources.

If my being in high school is going to effect the way my posts that include my views are viewed then I'll write less and present facts and no opinions.

Nah I think opinions are part of it, certainly goes to making a better discussion, we all (I do it myself) just have to be careful of when posting something that may contain an opinion of the reaction of strong replies The high school bit was only because opinion and thinking is still somewhat more influenced at highschool and to a certain extent College than that of someone who as been out and about longer or experienced more perceptions ways of thinking etc. It was also to point out that you were not one of the more dyed in the wool extremist that occasionally pop there heads up

 

[Grand Danois]

I had a lot more to post but decided against it.

Then if I'm wrong, I'm sorry and will research it, though most of what I'd said I'd read in articles at one point or another from various sources.

If my being in high school is going to effect the way my posts that include my views are viewed then I'll write less and present facts and no opinions.

There's no need to leave out your opinions. One do get bruised in discussion fora and it ain't necessarily a beauty contest for all.

You happened to walk into the minefield of popular American perceptions of Europe, and European frustration over their politics. That is bound to give some reactions.

 

[eckherl]

I had a lot more to post but decided against it.

Then if I'm wrong, I'm sorry and will research it, though most of what I'd said I'd read in articles at one point or another from various sources.

If my being in high school is going to effect the way my posts that include my views are viewed then I'll write less and present facts and no opinions.

You are doing a good job, your opinions do matter, it`s called freedom of speech.

 

[RubiconNZ]

You happened to walk into the minefield of popular American perceptions of Europe, and European frustration over their politics. That is bound to give some reactions.

Wow, you managed to put in a sentence what I nearly wrote in a paragraph, then hit delete cause it didn't sound right, Congrats on being Moded by the way

 

[Grand Danois]

Wow, you managed to put in a sentence what I nearly wrote in a paragraph, then hit delete cause it didn't sound right, Congrats on being Moded by the way

Thank you.

But I have to edit it one more time for precision, like this:

You happened to walk into the minefield of popular American perceptions of Europe, and European frustration over their own politics. That is bound to give some reactions.

 

[Ths]

USNavySEAL3310

Well we give as hard as we take!

My knowledge of the USA at Your age was about as Yours about Europe - and I still know the bruised feeling when I found out that my opinions weren't to well considered.

So pick up Your gun and teeth - you're on the right road! It called getting older - some of us are approaching senility faster than others.

We need young people that will take a stand, go out on a limb. You could have told me something valuable - next time!

 

[Waylander]

I totally agree to my forerunners.
No problem with you or your way of writing. Go on posting.

It is just the way discussion works, especially about such big topics. Somebody posts something and the one who disagrees with it tries show his own position and opinion.

And I am for sure not that old too (Despite the fact that I find more and more of my hairs in my bathroom ).

 

[USNavySEAL3310]

I didn't mean it that way. I just think there's a difference between being wrong and being told that you're young and idealistic, which translates to someone in my position as being told you are speaking jibberish and don't know what you're talking about.

Regardless, I should have put sources down before I posted what I did.

But whatever. We learn and move on.

 

[Ths]

USNavySEAL3310

Well You didn't get the ultimate put down:
When Niels Bohr encountered unadultered nonsense he said: "I believe we are more in agreement than You think."

Actually I'm generally a bit more tolerant with americans that have an undifferentiated view on Europe: How many European know which state has Baton Rouge as capital - hell they don't know states have capitals.

 

[Waylander]

What is a capital? :unknown

 

[USNavySEAL3310]

Great, now I'm an uneducated American who knows nothing about Europe high schooler

 

[LancerMc]

Don't feel too bad, they don't spend much time teaching about it college either. If you get lucky like me to have foreign professors or ones that have spent a great deal of time overseas you'll learn a ton. The best way to learn about Europe, is visit it. I did, and enjoyed it a lot. I can't wait to go back for my honeymoon next year.

Thats the great thing about this site, you can talk to people all around the world. You can learn about other opinions and ideas.

Organizations like NATO would be better off if we all understood each others cultures better.

 

[Ths]

Navy Seal: Well that is a good starting point! And not all European history is worth learning. I once tried to read pre-union scottish history: That was an exercise in futility.
I once a couple of years back had to explain the Europeans problems with Germany to a very intelligent LtCol of the Marines - he was the smart one, he could get wiser.

Waylander: You got me there!!!!!