Where do your armed services source their officers?

[adroth]

Hello,

I'm currently studying the alleged rivalry between military academy graduates, and those sourced from other programs (e.g., OCS, etc.) in the Armed Forces of the Philippines. Non-academy graduates reportedly have a glass ceiling.

I operate the following Web site for this purpose: http://www.adroth.ph/sites/startracker/trackerhome.php. Its focused on tracking the careers of officers with O-7 ratings (BGEN) and higher.

I was wondering if other countries have similar issues, or if this is another case of "only in the Philippines".

Do you send officers to other countries for OCS or academy training?

I know the likes of Singapore, Malaysia, Papua New Guinea, and the like periodically send folks to Australia for OCS. Other Asian countries send cadets to the Philippine Military Academy -- which has the dubious honor of having graduates who have backed coup d'etats in the Philippines and recently in Thailand.

Our own boys have attended all the American military academies, Aussie OCS, and last year one of our own topped his batch in the Japanese National Defense Academy.

Looking forward to your responses.

 

[Big-E]

USA is the source for most nations that outsource... We had many foreigners at my time in the Citadel.

 

[adroth]

USA is the source for most nations that outsource... We had many foreigners at my time in the Citadel.

Hi Big E,

I posted a similar question on Military.com, and someone gave me stats that showed that O7 plus officers in the US Armed Services were evenly divided between academy and non-academy graduates. Have you noticed any friction between the two groups?

Have you served with any American officers who were graduates of foreign academies or OCS programs?

The Philippine Military Academy has on record at least one American. Not sure if there were others. This was back in the 60's. He eventually became KIA in Vietnam.

 

[eckherl]

South Korea sends it`s potential Navy officers to England for training.

 

[Big-E]

Hi Big E,

I posted a similar question on Military.com, and someone gave me stats that showed that O7 plus officers in the US Armed Services were evenly divided between academy and non-academy graduates. Have you noticed any friction between the two groups?

Have you served with any American officers who were graduates of foreign academies or OCS programs?

Friction between Admirals and Generals or officers in general?

I have served with foreign officers on a temporary basis but they have never been given a permanent station. They are generally doing OEPs.

 

[adroth]

Friction between Admirals and Generals or officers in general?

Officers in general. Things typically come to a head when competing for promotions Things only get worse the higher up an officer goes because the available positions are fewer.

Promotions are almost automatic up to the rank of Major / Lt Commander -- so long as you don't screw up royally and don't end up in the "Commission on Human Rights" hit list. For some, that's as far as they'll ever go. After that, time-in-grade considerations force officers into early retirement. So officers who want to stay in the game are typically under pressure.

Everytime a service commander is up for retirement, newspapers invariably pickup all sorts of news about lobbying for positions, or retired officers airing gripes about how academy graduates are given undue priority. Does this kind of "male cattle excrement" happen in the US?

 

[adroth]

South Korea sends it`s potential Navy officers to England for training.

Interesting. Never knew that SK and the UK has such close relations.

Your referring to the Royal Naval College in Dartmouth, right?

 

[eckherl]

Interesting. Never knew that SK and the UK has such close relations.

Your referring to the Royal Naval College in Dartmouth, right?

Correct - I have a brother in law that attended a few years back.

 

[Big-E]

OCS graduates have some time invested into the Navy and have a unique perspective on knowing what it's like to be at the bottom. Academy grads have gone thru an intensive 4 year ciriculum, many see OCS as a crash course to becoming an officer. While they recognize the sailors experience some feel you can't make up 4 years of course work in several weeks. On the other hand some Academy grads have even less repore with regular ROTC folk... go figure, it just depends on how much of a prick you are.

 

[Gremlin29]

I never heard of anyone in the US armed forces picking up a commission through a foreign academy/program.

As far as the academy versus ROTC/OCS guys are concerened, there's no "glass ceiling" for non-academy grads. Colin Powell was an ROTC commission for example, he made General (4 stars) and served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

My father had told me to watch out for the "ring knockers" but quite honestly, all of the academy grads I worked with were top notch professionals. I can say I never thought of academy grads collectively in a negative way and had a positive experience with all that I worked with.

Not sure about other branches but the Army OCS program is very small and select. It is the most difficult way to earn a commission, for a long time they only had about 80 or so slots per year so it was very competitive.

 

[adroth]

As far as the academy versus ROTC/OCS guys are concerened, there's no "glass ceiling" for non-academy grads. Colin Powell was an ROTC commission for example, he made General (4 stars) and served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Based on the stats that someone gave me on Military.com, generals in the US Army are pretty evenly divided between academy and non-academy graduates. Which is consistent with your no-glass ceiling statement. :cheers

We've had our share of ROTC chiefs of staff in the AFP as well. The complain isn't really that its impossible to reach the top. Proponents of the "glass ceiling" complaint claim that the climb for an ROTC graduate is steeper than it is for an academy graduate.

ROTC graduates comprise roughly 70% of the officer corps, but less than 5% of the generals are from ROTC or other programs. I compiled this data last year, and the disparity has actually grown considerably due to retirements. In a number of cases, ROTC graduates actually apply to the academy after graduating from college -- so that skews the figures a bit.

Naturally academy graduates claim that all too often the ROTC graduates just don't have the right stuff.

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between.

My father had told me to watch out for the "ring knockers" but quite honestly, all of the academy grads I worked with were top notch professionals.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "ring knocker"?

 

[eckherl]

Based on the stats that someone gave me on Military.com, generals in the US Army are pretty evenly divided between academy and non-academy graduates. Which is consistent with your no-glass ceiling statement. :cheers

We've had our share of ROTC chiefs of staff in the AFP as well. The complain isn't really that its impossible to reach the top. Proponents of the "glass ceiling" complaint claim that the climb for an ROTC graduate is steeper than it is for an academy graduate.

ROTC graduates comprise roughly 70% of the officer corps, but less than 5% of the generals are from ROTC or other programs. I compiled this data last year, and the disparity has actually grown considerably due to retirements. In a number of cases, ROTC graduates actually apply to the academy after graduating from college -- so that skews the figures a bit.

Naturally academy graduates claim that all too often the ROTC graduates just don't have the right stuff.

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between.



Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "ring knocker"?

A West Point Graduate, but just like Gremlin29 stated they were not all that bad, a couple of field exercises would let them know who runs the platoons. (NCO`s)

 

[adroth]

A West Point Graduate, but just like Gremlin29 stated they were not all that bad, a couple of field exercises would let them know who runs the platoons. (NCO`s)

Sergeants rule :soldier

 

[Gremlin29]

"Ring Knocker" is an old school term for academy graduates. I believe it was used collectively used for all branches. It is in reference to the graduation ring that most graduates proudly (and justly so) wear.

 

[Big-E]

"Ring Knocker" is an old school term for academy graduates. I believe it was used collectively used for all branches. It is in reference to the graduation ring that most graduates proudly (and justly so) wear.

The term is used because on initiation to the Corps the upper classmen turn their rings upside down and slam it into your shoulder.

 

[Gremlin29]

The term is used because on initiation to the Corps the upper classmen turn their rings upside down and slam it into your shoulder.

Ahhh, the academy version of blood wings.

 

[Big-E]

Ahhh, the academy version of blood wings.

My shoulder was black for a week... it really hurts.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

We in France have South Korea personnels as well as people from Germany, UK, USN, Koweit, Malaysia and a few weeks ago two Japanese and a Colombian cadets went to our Navy College...
And also cadets from numerous African countries like Togo, Cameroun, etc etc...
So a lot of exchange concerning France.

 

[Waylander]

The same in Germany.
Many exchange courses and visits of other NATO members as well as courses for officers from Africa, Asia, Latin America, etc...

For example the foreign legion jungle warfare course in french-guyana is very liked by our infantry guys.
But most of the training of our officers still takes place in Germany.

The percentage of officers not studying is very, very low and officers which are former NCOs are not able to get higher than Stabshauptmann (One higher than captain).

 

[adroth]

We in France have South Korea personnels as well as people from Germany, UK, USN, Koweit, Malaysia and a few weeks ago two Japanese and a Colombian cadets went to our Navy College...
And also cadets from numerous African countries like Togo, Cameroun, etc etc...
So a lot of exchange concerning France.

Thanks Doc_FouALieR.

Do French officers only come from the Academy, or are there other programs that produce officers?

Do each of your services have their own academies or programs?