C-17 or A400M for Australia?

[Pursuit Curve]

gf, it seems taht Canada and Australia are at the same crossroads in terms of re-epuiping our rotary and fixed wing assets. I personally think that the C-17, C-130J and C-47/UH 60 B;ackhawk combimatoin is the way to go, especially when you consider that Australia already has the Gunship to do escort for the Chinook/UH 60.

 

[Aussie Digger]

How do we replace 14 x Caribou with only $350m? (AIR 8000 phase 2)

Gyro-copters I reckon. They'll have the "short field" performance that seems to be essential and their cruise speed wouldn't be much below that of the "bou"...

 

[cherry]

To purchase a further 6 x Chinook we are looking at around $270m and about $180m for 4 x Chinook (around about $40m-$45m a piece). From what I can work out, C-27J costs about $35m-$40m a piece, so we aren't looking at much for AIR 8000 phase 2. We already have the TLS facilities in place in country for the Chinooks but not for the C-27J. I think we may see an additional buy of chinooks to replace the Caribou rather than the C-27J. Would 6 Chinooks operated from the new LHDs and/or new sealift ship/s be sufficient to cover the existing Caribou capabilities?

 

[Aussie Digger]

To purchase a further 6 x Chinook we are looking at around $270m and about $180m for 4 x Chinook (around about $40m-$45m a piece). From what I can work out, C-27J costs about $35m-$40m a piece, so we aren't looking at much for AIR 8000 phase 2. We already have the TLS facilities in place in country for the Chinooks but not for the C-27J. I think we may see an additional buy of chinooks to replace the Caribou rather than the C-27J. Would 6 Chinooks operated from the new LHDs and/or new sealift ship/s be sufficient to cover the existing Caribou capabilities?

Chooks can lift the same loads as the Bou and has similar speed. It's the range that's impossible to replace. I don't think the Chinook could directly replace the Bou. C-130J's AND Chinooks maybe, not Chooks alone.

The V-22 would be a closer match for a one on one replacement, ie: has greater speed and range, it just doesn't have the lift capacity and costs a fortune...

It's a puzzle for ADF force planners, that's for sure...

 

[cherry]

AD, just out of curiosity, what would your solution be for replacing the C-130H and the Caribou? Keeping in mind that for phase 1 of AIR 8000 there is a $1B budget, and for phase 2 there is a $350m budget.

In addition to this, do you seriously think that half a dozen existing C-130H models will be retained and converted for SOF?

 

[Aussie Digger]

AD, just out of curiosity, what would your solution be for replacing the C-130H and the Caribou? Keeping in mind that for phase 1 of AIR 8000 there is a $1B budget, and for phase 2 there is a $350m budget.

In addition to this, do you seriously think that half a dozen existing C-130H models will be retained and converted for SOF?

Well in 1995, our purchase of 12x C-130J-30's cost AU$990m. I'd recommend another purchase of 12 C-130J-30's at least and to use whatever was left on additional C-130J airframes. A fleet of 12-16x extra C-130J's doesn't seem out of the question for $1.35b (considering that most of the necessary support is already in-place) and an airlifter fleet of 24-28 C-130J-30's (not to mention the 4x C-17's) would provide far greater lift capacity than the existing fleet of 32x C-130J's/C-130H's/Caribou's plus an un-defined number of C-27/C-295's.

As to the intra-theatre lift argument, well Iraq won't last for ever and we HAVE been using C-130's for this role anyway. The next conflict might require much more inter-theatre lift than the present ones and we won't be well served by a small airlifter then. The C-130J's will assist much better.

This rationalisation would also reduce through life costs for RAAF as well, meaning these funds can be put into the pointy end of ADF capability.

As to the C-130H remaining for SOCOMD duties. I doubt it if the the ADF chose to head down the C-130J path. Never in the history of ADF have specwarries had their own "special aircraft" and even the S-70A9's being flown in support of TAG-East are not modified in anyway and would be diverted if a more pressing need came along.

DCP makes no mention of providing specific aircraft for SOCOMD, nor has any definite announcement. Only more rumour and speculation...

 

[cherry]

Well in 1995, our purchase of 12x C-130J-30's cost AU$990m. I'd recommend another purchase of 12 C-130J-30's at least and to use whatever was left on additional C-130J airframes. A fleet of 12-16x extra C-130J's doesn't seem out of the question for $1.35b (considering that most of the necessary support is already in-place) and an airlifter fleet of 24-28 C-130J-30's (not to mention the 4x C-17's) would provide far greater lift capacity than the existing fleet of 32x C-130J's/C-130H's/Caribou's plus an un-defined number of C-27/C-295's.

I reckon I could live with that. Personally though, I would leave the phase 2 of AIR 8000 to purchasing 6-8 extra chooks in the CH-47F configuration, even with the refuelling probe. $350m should cover this. The $1B allocated to phase one of AIR 8000 could purchase 12 x C-130J-30. Although, I would like to see 6 x in AAR role, 2 x in AC-130 role, and 4 x in MC-130 role. The 6 x AAR could be used for intra-theatre lift when not required for AAR roles, and the 4 x MC-130 could also be used for intra-theatre lift when not required by SOF. The AC-130 capability is one that would truely contribute to a hardened and networked army, giving them a unique capability feared by all our enemies. By having AAR C-130J, the newly purchased and modified Chinooks could have their range extended and this would also provide a great capability for SOF operations. All of this should be able to be achieved for around $1.35B, especially considering we should get some money back for the sale of our remaining C-130H models. Your thoughts?

 

[Magoo]

AD, just out of curiosity, what would your solution be for replacing the C-130H and the Caribou? Keeping in mind that for phase 1 of AIR 8000 there is a $1B budget, and for phase 2 there is a $350m budget.

In addition to this, do you seriously think that half a dozen existing C-130H models will be retained and converted for SOF?

No. I predict the following will happen:

* 6 x KC-130J plus 12-16 x C-27J will be ordered to replace C-130H & partly replace Caribou, and...
* 6 x new-build CH-47Fs plus our CH-47Ds to be re-manufactured as CH-47Fs to replace the remaining Caribous.

...leaving the ADF in about 2011/12 with...

* 5 x A330MRTT (33 SQN @ Amberley)
* 4 x C-17A (36SQN @ Amberley)
* 12 x C-130J (37SQN @ Richmond)
* 6 x KC-130J (37SQN det @ Townsville?)
* 16 x C-27J (35SQN @ Amberley, det @ Townsville?)
* 12 x CH-47F (5AVN Reg @ Townsville, det @ Darwin?)

The current budget, if moved around between Phases 1 (<$1bn) & 2 (<$350m) of AIR 8000, and Phase 5 of AIR 9000 (<$450m; total <$1.8bn) should be sufficient to achieve this order of battle.

For the next DCP, look for additional funding to be made available in a new Phase of AIR 8000 for about 8-10 A400Ms for 2nd pass in 2009/10 and service entry in the 2013/14 timeframe, thus giving the ADF a true multi-tiered airlift capability.

Magoo

 

[Aussie Digger]

I reckon I could live with that. Personally though, I would leave the phase 2 of AIR 8000 to purchasing 6-8 extra chooks in the CH-47F configuration, even with the refuelling probe. $350m should cover this. The $1B allocated to phase one of AIR 8000 could purchase 12 x C-130J-30. Although, I would like to see 6 x in AAR role, 2 x in AC-130 role, and 4 x in MC-130 role. The 6 x AAR could be used for intra-theatre lift when not required for AAR roles, and the 4 x MC-130 could also be used for intra-theatre lift when not required by SOF. The AC-130 capability is one that would truely contribute to a hardened and networked army, giving them a unique capability feared by all our enemies. By having AAR C-130J, the newly purchased and modified Chinooks could have their range extended and this would also provide a great capability for SOF operations. All of this should be able to be achieved for around $1.35B, especially considering we should get some money back for the sale of our remaining C-130H models. Your thoughts?

For that budget, I think we could probably afford only 12x aircraft if we opted for specialist variants and I think that we could only afford to get "6x AAR" or 6x AC-130 or 6x MC-130 but not 2 of those specialised variants, meaning the other 6 would be standard "tac-trans" variants. The most recent cost I saw for C-130J-30 was US$73m per platform for "standard" variants...

As always it seems to be a case of: do we opt of 16x tactrans variants or 12x variants with some being equipped as KC/AC/MC-130 variants? Of the 3 specialist variants, I think the MC variants are of least importance for RAAF, with KC variants being the most importance, due to their helo A2A refuelling capability, something which RAAF entirely lacks...

IF a specialised A2G strike capability were to be acquired, I'd advocate an MQ-1 Predator or similar rather than an AC-130. The latest AC-130U variant is still based on C-130H's. There is no AC variant of C-130J's been made to date and as such we would be "orphan's". Something ADF has not handled well on other projects. The NRE would be horrendous too...

Granted we will get some money for the sale of the C-130H's as we did with the sale of the "E's" but there's no guarantee that money will go back into replacement capability acquisition or even back into Defence at all...

There is money for the Chooks under AIR-9000 ($450 million for Chinook upgrade), I also have a feeling the Chooks might be a "special" case like the C-17 and be purchased with supplementary funding outside of the announced Defence Capability Plan.

I think it's a reasonable bet that the current CH-47D Chinooks will be "re-manufactured" to the "F" standard and additional new builds bought at the same time or earlier (to cover for the platforms undergoing upgrade).

This may be difficult to justify politically at present with the announcement just done for the additional MRH-90, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it 6 or 12 months down the track...

Therefore my preferrence would be for: 12x C-130J-30's with 6x equipped to KC-130J standard.

The Chinooks to be "re-manufactured" to the "F" standard and an additional 6-10 new build "F's" acquired. 6x for 5 Avn Regt and up to 4 "specwarops" variants.

If more money can be found for Tactrans then perhaps "AC's" could be considered but the conversion makes the aircraft completely un-useable in it's tactrans role and therefore is a bit too specialised for my liking in RAAF service in these fiscal times. More CAS capability could be added to our Hornet fleets if necessary through greater and wider weapons stocks (Brimstone, SDB etc) and I think that as Mariner may end up winning the AIR-7000 MUAV project, MQ-1 could be a handy purchase and provide a specialised A2G capability...

 

[cherry]

Does anybody seriously think that A400M will be a possibility for the C-130H replacement? I think cost would rule it out here.

 

[old faithful]

i agree that the c27j will be aquired. saw one at darwin airport last year....it hung around for a couple of weeks. More chinooks are almost certain,great replacement to the bou,s, but a LOT more expensive to operate and maintain.$$$

 

[icelord]

RAAF gets first of giant planes
November 29, 2006
THE RAAF has taken delivery in the US of the first of its new giant C-17 Globemaster transport aircraft.

The air force is acquiring four of the Globemaster III planes under a $2 billion program to enhance RAAF long-range transport capabilities.

Each can carry 70 tonnes of cargo, four times the capacity of the RAAF's veteran C-130 Hercules.

Manufacturer Boeing today handed over the four-engined aircraft in a ceremony at the company's Long Beach, California, plant.

During the ceremony, RAAF air commander Air Vice-Marshal John Quaife praised Boeing and spoke of Australia's new, responsive global airlift capability.

“The C-17s will dramatically increase our ability to support worldwide operations of the Australian Defence Force as well as humanitarian relief in the Asia Pacific region,” he said.

The first C17 will arrive in Australia next week, piloted by Wing Commander Linda Corbould.

It will touch down in Canberra for an official prime ministerial welcome before flying to its new home base at RAAF Amberley, Queensland.

For a major equipment procurement, the C17 project has been undertaken with astonishing speed – nine months from public announcement to first delivery.

Australia's first aircraft – the 166th to come off the Long Beach line – features upgraded software and avionics.

Apart from its RAAF livery, the aircraft is identical to C-17s operated by the US Air Force.
http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20841966-31477,00.html
It will be here as of next week
My money is on it spending more time in Suva then Amberly in first few weeks.

 

[RubiconNZ]

My money is on it spending more time in Suva then Amberly in first few weeks.

I'm afraid you might be right. Gosh all we need is Western Samoa and American Samoa attacking and the whole of oceania is having issues.

 

[icelord]

Well, we're not the regional Deputy for nothingnfloorl:

 

[SATAN]

Well, we're not the regional Deputy for nothingnfloorl:

But you're not the Sherrif as yet.

 

[knightrider4]

Its Here!

FIRST C-17 ARRIVES IN AUSTRALIA​

Today’s arrival of the C-17 Heavy Lift Aircraft represents the start of a new era in the Australian Defence Force’s (ADF) airlift capability.

In March 2006 the Government announced plans for the acquisition these aircraft. Just nine months later, I am honoured to be present at the maiden flight into Australia of the first of four C-17s, which will be based at RAAF Amberley, to be operated by No 36 Squadron.

I would like to acknowledge the efforts of the Air Force, the Defence Materiel Organisation, Boeing and the wider Defence community in ensuring the delivery of our aircraft in such a timely fashion.

As the government builds the strength of Australia’s Defence Force, to protect our people, interests and values, it is important we have the capacity to move our personnel and equipment into other parts of the world and across Australia, when and where we need them.

The C-17 is capable of carrying almost four times the load, over twice the distance, as the C130 Hercules. Each C-17 is capable of carrying five Bushmaster Infantry Vehicles, or three Tiger helicopters, or up to 75 tonnes of equipment and supplies for emergency relief.

As well as enhancing the responsiveness of our Defence Force, our C-17s will increase Australia’s independence. We will no longer need to rely on leasing ageing Antonov aircraft, or wait in queues for American heavy airlift.

The ADF’s acquisition of the C-17 delivers significant benefit to Australian Industry with inclusion in the project of an Australian Industry Partnership program valued at about $345 Million.

​

For a free subscription to Defence Direct, the Minister for Defence's monthly e-newsletter, please follow this link: ​

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/defencedirect/spt/subscribe.html​

Sorry everyone couldnt find any pics of her though.

 

[icelord]

Man does she look sweet as.
More available from
Image Galleries 2006 - Department of Defence

 

[alexsa]

Another two would be nice. The aquistion cost for the addiional aircraft wouel not be too horrendous as much of the training and support infrastructure was paid for in the original package.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Another two would be nice. The aquistion cost for the addiional aircraft wouel not be too horrendous as much of the training and support infrastructure was paid for in the original package.

I am sure they would do another good deal for us in the 2010 timeframe when the last on order C-17's are near complete.

 

[Sea Toby]

Buying another two during 2010 is out of the question. If anyone wants to buy them, they would have to do so this year. Plane parts don't arrive at the construction line in a New York minute.

After this year's orders the production line will be closed when the last aircraft is built. While shipyards may take one ship orders, aircraft companies need several aircraft to keep their assembly lines open.