Market for light frigates/corvettes : the Gowind ships of DCN

docrjay

New Member
Better in an AAW standpoint

Lets say the Gowind 2000 being a multipurpose combatant, was armed with 16 Aster -15 and a CIWS system (? 30mm gun), how would it fair with say the Meko-A100 with 32 ESSM and 35 millenium gun? Consider a saturation attack scenario.

And just a question what is the ideal missile load to be a persistent AAW combatant "corvette style" in a medium to high threath environment. (Consider 16 active Aster-15 vs 32 semi active ESSM)
 

contedicavour

New Member
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  • #22
Lets say the Gowind 2000 being a multipurpose combatant, was armed with 16 Aster -15 and a CIWS system (? 30mm gun), how would it fair with say the Meko-A100 with 32 ESSM and 35 millenium gun? Consider a saturation attack scenario.

And just a question what is the ideal missile load to be a persistent AAW combatant "corvette style" in a medium to high threath environment. (Consider 16 active Aster-15 vs 32 semi active ESSM)
If we believe Jane's Fighting Ships 06/07, Aster-15 has a 30km range vs 18km for ESSM... so with comparable radars the Gowind would be able to shoot down incoming jets&missiles from farther away.
A lot depends on the size of the threat : how many aircrafts with how many missiles. I would be astonished to see up to 8 jets with more than 2 ASMs each attacking ONE corvette... so the weapons fit seems sufficient to me.

cheers
 

Big-E

Banned Member
If we believe Jane's Fighting Ships 06/07, Aster-15 has a 30km range vs 18km for ESSM... so with comparable radars the Gowind would be able to shoot down incoming jets&missiles from farther away.
I thought ESSM had a range of 50+ kms. :confused:

If this is the case the Gowind would have a much greater engagement radius with ESSM over Aster 15.
 

contedicavour

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I thought ESSM had a range of 50+ kms. :confused:

If this is the case the Gowind would have a much greater engagement radius with ESSM over Aster 15.
Hello Big-E, could you check with your colleagues please ? I have a tendency to believe Jane's FS, but nobody's better placed to confirm that than the USN ;)

cheers
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The 30 km range for Aster 15 is probably when fired in an unguided, ballistic trajectory. The comparable range for ESSM is 50 km.

The effective range, when engaging a target, is approx 18 km for ESSM.
 

contedicavour

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The 30 km range for Aster 15 is probably when fired in an unguided, ballistic trajectory. The comparable range for ESSM is 50 km.

The effective range, when engaging a target, is approx 18 km for ESSM.
I can't find the accurate source, but I remember reading in a military magazine in English a couple of months ago that an Aster-15 had hit a manoeuvring subsonic target at over 25km distance from the launcher.

Besides, I don't understand what sense it would make for a manufacturer to claim a max distance in an unguided mode :unknown

cheers
 

Big-E

Banned Member
The 30 km range for Aster 15 is probably when fired in an unguided, ballistic trajectory. The comparable range for ESSM is 50 km.

The effective range, when engaging a target, is approx 18 km for ESSM.
Depends on which version it is, the ESSM for SPY/APAR radars are guided up to the maximum of it's range recieving mid-course guidance. The shorter version is for box launchers which is what conte was refering I suppose. If this corvette has it in a box then it's shorter if it's in a VLS it is the longer version. I don't think they would list the unguided ballistic trajectory... it doesn't mean anything and goes against any kind of measuring standard.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The ESSM comes in box launchers? Are you sure you aren't thinking of Sea Sparrow classics?

I know it is meaningless using the ballistic trajectories, though I am pretty sure I have seen it used.
 

docrjay

New Member
Since the corvettes armed with ESSM are not suited with APAR they can guide limited amount of missiles in the air. Given that the Aster is active, in a saturation attack it would be hard to beat BUT with only 16 missiles in a Gowind, it is not a "persistent" platform so to speak unless he gets supply support immidiately. Was thinking of adding RAM, with additional 21 missiles, he can get to stay long and able to protect herself againts aircraft and AShM's.

But both Aster and RAM would be hella expensive. The current Mekos on the other hand have few fire channels. Thier new version the Meko CSL have a new radar suite I think its the SeaPAR (mini APAR) housed in an integrated mast with a Smart-S Mk2 doing surveillance. That would a great capability boost. Although none has been built yet its kinda the solution for semiactive missiles.

But given that it would cost a lot. Have you guys seen the CEA-MOUNT? The active misille director? It claims that a single phased array can cover 180 degrees in the threat axis so 2 would cover 360 degrees. Since it is active it has more fire channels compared to current directors. I havent read how many missiles it can guide, but it would be a much cheaper solution compared to the Seapar.

What do you guys think?
 

orko_8

New Member
I noticed that Ukraine is trying to get Turkey to collaborate on production of a stealth corvette. Anyone heard about this?
Ukraine offered a modified version of Mistral 1500 (Mistral 1500T) to Turkey for MilGem project. But Turkey chose to go for a local design and it was refused.
 

aaaditya

New Member
Ukraine offered a modified version of Mistral 1500 (Mistral 1500T) to Turkey for MilGem project. But Turkey chose to go for a local design and it was refused.
hey buddy,doesnt the vessel that you posted have a helicopter hangar,the helicopter seems to be quite vulnerable and a signature intensive source.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
hey buddy,doesnt the vessel that you posted have a helicopter hangar,the helicopter seems to be quite vulnerable and a signature intensive source.
Considering there is no hanger I take it is only a landing platform... reminescint of ABs before the hanger conversion.
 

aaaditya

New Member
Considering there is no hanger I take it is only a landing platform... reminescint of ABs before the hanger conversion.
is that vessel intended to be stealthy ,because the lack of a helo hangar renders the vessel ineffective in terms of stealth.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
is that vessel intended to be stealthy ,because the lack of a helo hangar renders the vessel ineffective in terms of stealth.
It certainly does if it is carrying it's helo. I take it is only a landing station but is based on land or a larger vessel.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Galrahn: Very interesting post.

Basically I think the small warshipsmarket is a very diverse market, where ships are designed, manned and armed to the requirements of very specific waters, task and likely opposition.
If we take the RDaN:
Thetis-class frigates rule the North Atlantic; but would not stand a chance other places, where they f.i. lack the speed needed or their anti-ice design is superfleous.
Flyvefisken Class are excellent in the Baltic; but more likely to be a liability on the high seas.
Niels Iuel class corvettes have impressive armament and speed; but very little endurance.
It seems like the smaller the ship gets, the specialised.

On this background it seems sensible for the US Navy to concentrate on ruling the high seas with larger vessel - and accept the limitations that they are not the best in all situations. If the ambition is to rule everywhere it will be costly: They will not only need a lot of small ship (and a command structure to deal with this multitude of ships and tasks), they will need a host of different types which will not be cheap in either building or maintainence, finally there will a world wide base structure, as endurence and limitations in transit will need a local structure (with all the paraphenalia that entails).

As the contest for the high sea is - if not called off in the presence of US task forces - then very much lopsided, the relative importance of smaller ships (and navies) raise. There is nothing new in this, as all the talk of littoral combat and brown water navies indicates.
The new Freedom class is interesting; but how effective and flexible this type will be remains to be seen - I personally will reserve my judgement.

The more immediate solution lies in the network of allies, where local allieds are in a much better position to exercise control. The plus side for the smaller nations is the enormeous clout the US Navy has - in case the milder means doesn't convince.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The more immediate solution lies in the network of allies, where local allieds are in a much better position to exercise control. The plus side for the smaller nations is the enormeous clout the US Navy has - in case the milder means doesn't convince.
Ths,

I think you nailed it right there, except as an immediate solution it also becomes the long term solution as well. One of the least discussed, but perhaps most important and most effective US Navy operations in the last few years is the work of the USS Emory S. Land in the Gulf of Guinea region off West Africa.

Using the sub tender as a mobile repair and refurbishing platform, the US Navy was able to repair several dozen OPVs for several nations, develop a working relationship with local Navies, develop a better understanding of the regional state and non state actors, develop an information sharing process, develop both a military and civilian relationship with local governments, and develop understanding of customs and politics in local ports; all of which boosted the US Navy domain awareness in the region without deploying a major warship.

It just so happens the increase awareness made deploying major warships to the region more important, see the USS Albany for details, but that is another topic...

If you read through the link I put on page 1 of this thread, the Naval Operations Concept for 2006 White Paper, it gives a scenario about the Global Fleet Station. In the example an Austin class LPD is deployed to a region for a multi-year tour to provide regional services to build relationships over a local area. I find the concept very clever, because it addresses a key strategic goal for the United States, but additionally a key tactical goal for the US Navy.

The key strategic goal for the US is that a Global Fleet Station provides a medium to build a "Unified Action" contingency before a crisis, as opposed to after one. Whether it is NGOs, other government agencies, or other military branches a platform with the capabilities of a LPD can balance a number of requirements quickly, and perform any number of tasks, both political and militarily, simultaneously to insure cooperation, improve relations, and sustain information networks for security as a commerce enabler.

But on the tactical level, it allows the Navy to leverage relatively small amounts of resources and funds for enormous gains through sustaining local OPVs, which as we know, after sustained training and utilization leads to eventual improvement requirements, thus eventually a major purchase for new equipment by the new partners. Those equipment improvements for smaller 3rd world countries will almost certainly be in the FAC or Corvette class.

I think it is a very smart approach in the "Sea Basing" concept, because it puts a good mix of tools in volatile places before problems hit critical mass, and uses common interest through local improvement to leverage local assistance to regional stability issues.

From an industry perspective, I think the concept develops a market that builds even greater incentive for the industry to develop smaller, low cost, unmanned sensor systems that are deployable on the FAC or Corvette level, which leverages the space on a 300-1200 ton vessel not for large, expensive weapons like SAMs or SSMs, rather lower cost deployable systems that tailor better to most present day littoral security situations.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Galrahn we are in sync on this one:

The USS Freedom might be a fine ship for all I know; but is it what the West and the USA needs? Maybe.

I think the central issue is: "What do You mean by control?"

Is it a Stasi-encyclopedia of the most intimate bookkeeping detail, or are you ready to deputise and follow through on what is really in the interests of the USA. I think the "war on terror" has brought that to light. This campain is in reality to check on every village nut, that may or may not be tinkering with explosives - or just smoking a bad cigar.

It will mean a new approach of the US military, as what I've heard about the BALTNET was not indicative of US tact.
Another thing that might come out of Irak is that nobody can really somebody elses country for them - the Russians tried to with great emphasis - and failed repeatedly and miserably.

On the other hand I think this concept will go a long way to secure the US and her position in the world in the future - even the Russian might end up asking: What do we really need that navy for? Is it not just a resource drain? Is it realistic that the US is going to invade us?
Americans really love the wilderness - provided it has good road access, gasstations, nice clean hotels, no creepy crawlies, plenty of coca-cola and a McDonalds - it is not everybodies taste; but for you that love the Australian Northern Territory there is a whole world waiting for you.

This thread is very thought provoking, as everybody (myself include) tend to be occupied with carrier deckspotting factors and Virginia missile/torp tubes at the cost of an essential type of vessel: The Patroller.

A patroller might not have great speed, impressive firepower or advanced sensors; but it can get at places where others can't and definately won't go. And a keen pair of eyes and a 40mm Bofors can make the local AQ representives live short and miserable at very little cost.

I'm not a great believer in standardisation of patroller production. Primarily because there is little similarity between the new Danish arctic patrollers (in essense seawothy icebreakers - I didn't say they are going to be comfortable) and Congo river patrolboat.
Secondly these ships can be build by small yards in between leisure craft with a much closer custoumer contact.

For back-up to the patrollers I like Your idea of corvettes, which properly designed can pack a hefty punch and make great speed at the cost of endurence. This price is not severe as they will know exactly where to sail when the patroller is overmatched.
The opportunity for big industry is production of containers with weapons (much like the Danish Standard Flex concept: specialise the hulls; not the weapons fit): A container with Harpoon on Penguin, a container Sea Sparrow, and so on.
Again local yards could wrap steel or glass-fibre around the containers - as for drive train: There are lots of good diesels around - if nothing else a series of truck-engines driving generators that can be fitted in odd spaces.

I further find it excellent that the USNavy is using one of their fortes as a strategic assets: Their maintainance and repair crews to get some of these rusting hulls underway - in a halfway safe manner. Hopefully we might see some engineers get promoted over destroyer captains, whose main qualification is that he hasn't collided with something hard - lately.

As for small vessel remote sensors.
Have you seen the new Danish minesweeping standard vessels.
The principle here is to standardise hulls (using the same glass-fibre mould) and build lots of small boats for the odd jobs of a navy and coast guard, bouy-cutters, transport of maintainence crew to lighthouses, a bit of navel control of shipping and as minesweepers: Take the crew off, put minesweeping gear on and send them into the minefield where no crew will go willingly.
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
Many in the US like to quote our first president, George Washington, to not get involved in foreign entanglements. Others like to quote Dwight Eisenhower, beware the military industrial complex. Fortunately, most of the time our foreign engagements have led to positive relationships. But doing so has led to confrontations with those we do not favor, such as Al Quaida, the Osama Bin Ladens in this world.

Recently, I read that one of our Coast Guard's ocean going Juniper class buoy tenders based in Hawaii had a wonderful South Pacific patrol of our territories in the South Pacific. While there were no patrol ships to maintain, many parks and other needed infrastructure was addressed including a tsunami warning device. Good will is always welcomed everywhere. There are a few places in this world, where good will isn't welcomed, but this is not due to any of our faults.
 
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