Indian Missiles & Nuclear Development News and Discussions

[wp2000]

At the initial R&D stage of ABM system, if it's your first one, I think it's a common practice to use some technology from Surface-Surface missiles, unless your SAM technology is very matured already.

Correct me if I am wrong, I believe US ans USSR started their initial ABM projects in late 50 or early 60 and some Surface to Surface missile techs.

China's first ABM system FanJi family (1964-1980) also borrowed quite some surface to surface missile techs.

Anyway, the difficulties are in the later stages. That's why even now in 21st century, nobody's ABM can be said satisfying.

 

[aaaditya]

At the initial R&D stage of ABM system, if it's your first one, I think it's a common practice to use some technology from Surface-Surface missiles, unless your SAM technology is very matured already.

Correct me if I am wrong, I believe US ans USSR started their initial ABM projects in late 50 or early 60 and some Surface to Surface missile techs.

China's first ABM system FanJi family (1964-1980) also borrowed quite some surface to surface missile techs.

Anyway, the difficulties are in the later stages. That's why even now in 21st century, nobody's ABM can be said satisfying.

india has several anti ballistic missile projects,this missile could have included a degree of asssitance from them.

some of the projects are:

1) an indo-russian anti tactical ballistic missile project worth 10 billion dollars.

2)indo-israeli barak2 missile project(super barak).

3)indigenous efforts to upgrade the akash missiles to the standards of patriot missiles.

 

[wp2000]

india has several anti ballistic missile projects,this missile could have included a degree of asssitance from them.

some of the projects are:

1) an indo-russian anti tactical ballistic missile project worth 10 billion dollars.

2)indo-israeli barak2 missile project(super barak).

3)indigenous efforts to upgrade the akash missiles to the standards of patriot missiles.

So India is working on 3 types of SIMILAR ABM systems? Very ambitious and you must have a big budget, I have to say.

Don't take my word as offensive, this is a good first step for India. But I think some indian friends are carried away a little bit (on other forums, like BR). It would be good to do some research on other countries's ABM systems and dev histories to have a more realistic view.

For example, Taiwan's own ABM system had done a successful test several years ago already and they are even reluctant to buy PAC3 although it's offered. So, I don't think they would be interested in India's ABM.

 

[aaaditya]

So India is working on 3 types of SIMILAR ABM systems? Very ambitious and you must have a big budget, I have to say.

Don't take my word as offensive, this is a good first step for India. But I think some indian friends are carried away a little bit (on other forums, like BR). It would be good to do some research on other countries's ABM systems and dev histories to have a more realistic view.

For example, Taiwan's own ABM system had done a successful test several years ago already and they are even reluctant to buy PAC3 although it's offered. So, I don't think they would be interested in India's ABM.

i dont think that these missile programmes are similiar,the indo-russian missile would be based on an existing russian missile and would have a longer range of atleast 200+ kilometres,the prithvi 2 would be the intermediate ranged one at 150kms,the super barak would be comparable to the us standard series or the french aster2 ,in that it will be primarily be designed for indian navy and hence would be less bulkier than the prithvi2 and considerably more flexible with a range of 70-100kms.

the akash would be india's patriot with the shortest range of the lot ,the range would be between 25-60kms .

so in other words ,the indian armed forces would have a multilayered anti ballistic missile defence ,linked to a unified network of indigenous radars( 3d rajendra),israeli radars(greenpine and the greenpine based swordfish) and possible russian ,us or french(master-t) long ranged radar(whichever is selected),this would be coupled to the divya dhrishti(divine vision) radar network based on the triangulation principle (comparable to the czech vera) ,this divya dhrishti systems is claimed to have a detection range of 800 kms in two dimensional plane and a range of 450kms in 3 d plane and is being developed with israeli assistance,along with them would be the israeli aerostat radars.

 

[powerslavenegi]

At the initial R&D stage of ABM system, if it's your first one, I think it's a common practice to use some technology from Surface-Surface missiles, unless your SAM technology is very matured already.

Actually here technology from SSM refers to Solid rocket bosster I guess.

Correct me if I am wrong, I believe US ans USSR started their initial ABM projects in late 50 or early 60 and some Surface to Surface missile techs.

China's first ABM system FanJi family (1964-1980) also borrowed quite some surface to surface missile techs.

Well that is slightly misleading ,US and Russia were inventing the wheel while others are now just following the manuscripts to make the same.

the difficulties are in the later stages. That's why even now in 21st century, nobody's ABM can be said satisfying.

The ABM v/s BM has gone into an infinite loop .IOW for every new ABM being built the adversary might have already started deploying a new BM that might defeat the current latest ABM system in operation.

But I think some indian friends are carried away a little bit (on other forums, like BR).

Let us not talk about other forums on DT (specially when one does not know much about the same).

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,great news ,the trishul missile programme has been completed,it has met the indian airforce requirements and is being offered to the indian airforce.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7812


NEW DELHI: The final cost of developing the Akash, Nag and Trishul missiles would cross Rs. 1,100 crore and the deadline had been extended to December next year, Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Rajya Sabha in a written reply on Wednesday.
The final cost of developing the missile trinity is nearly eight times more than the originally envisaged cost of Rs. 142 crore.
The Minister attributed the delay to the extra time required to develop and realise the state-of-the-art technology required for the missile systems.
The Akash and Nag systems are ready for users' trial, after which they will enter into the production and induction phases.
The development of Trishul was over and the Air Force version has met the user requirements during developmental flight trials.
Supersonic cruise missile BrahMos had been inducted into the defence forces after flight trials. The Navy and the Army have accepted the BrahMos system. It is being inducted into naval ships while the Army will do so next year.

 

[powerslavenegi]

A correction India does not have 3 ABM programmes .

Infact Barak-Ng(Indo-Israeli venture) is primarily a next generation Medium /Long range SAM for the Navy.So its primarily roles would be anti-aircraft and cruise missile defense.

Akash is a ramjet powered missile(range about 30 Km with max cieling of 18Km) so obviously cant be used for high altitude interceptions and hence does not qualify as a genuine 'ABM'.

Even PAC-3 and S-300 are capable against only Short range TBM's.Which I am afraid are not enough to intercept an ICBM coming in at 15 Mach.

I guess only Arrow-II and THAAD are active ABM systems in place today.

 

[wp2000]

Actually here technology from SSM refers to Solid rocket bosster I guess.

I was referring about all those vague reports on the Privthi involvment.

Well that is slightly misleading ,US and Russia were inventing the wheel while others are now just following the manuscripts to make the same.

Sorry, for ABM and TBM, there's no manuscripts yet. There are still too many known unknowns and unknown unknowns (Gee, I really like it). Even the US and Russia are not able to make a really working TBM (Let alone ABM).

The ABM v/s BM has gone into an infinite loop .IOW for every new ABM being built the adversary might have already started deploying a new BM that might defeat the current latest ABM system in operation.

Not just new BMs, current ABMs can't even tactically handle some 2 decades old BMs.

Just think about it, in other DT thread many members firmly believe that China's BM can't hit a slow moving aircraft carrier. Now, to hit a 10000 times smaller target travelling 1000 times faster than an aircraft carrier, man, that's hard.

And on top of all the technical difficulties, ABM missile systems are financially unworkable. That's one of the reason why Taiwan has been wondering about PAC3 for so many years: A chinese WS guided rocket costs less than 100K USD ( I am not sure about the exact figure, although I remember it's 50K US$), a PAC3 costs 2 Million USD. Evenif PAC3 has 100% success rate, Taiwan would go bankrupt before China fires the first missile/rocket.

Let us not talk about other forums on DT (specially when one does not know much about the same).

Sure.

 

[aaaditya]

A correction India does not have 3 ABM programmes .

Infact Barak-Ng(Indo-Israeli venture) is primarily a next generation Medium /Long range SAM for the Navy.So its primarily roles would be anti-aircraft and cruise missile defense.

Akash is a ramjet powered missile(range about 30 Km with max cieling of 18Km) so obviously cant be used for high altitude interceptions and hence does not qualify as a genuine 'ABM'.

Even PAC-3 and S-300 are capable against only Short range TBM's.Which I am afraid are not enough to intercept an ICBM coming in at 15 Mach.

I guess only Arrow-II and THAAD are active ABM systems in place today.

akash missile was developed with a range of 25 kms ,however afterwards it was decided to increase its range and altitude capabilities to 50+kms,that is the reason why it has still not been inducted into the indian armed forces,currently work is going on to improve these paarmeters,akash has so far completed 40 test fires.

 

[aaaditya]

similiarly there are also efforts to increase the range of the trishul missiles ,currently their range has been increased from 9-11 kms,i would'nt be surprised if the trishul missile has a range of 15 kms,by the way trishul missile has met the airforce requirements and is being officialy offered to the indian airforce.

 

[Grand Danois]

INot just new BMs, current ABMs can't even tactically handle some 2 decades old BMs.

I''ll agree to that.

Just think about it, in other DT thread many members firmly believe that China's BM can't hit a slow moving aircraft carrier. Now, to hit a 10000 times smaller target travelling 1000 times faster than an aircraft carrier, man, that's hard.

It's not the ability of a BM to hit xyz at t, that is the problem for the ASBM. But the kill-chain has to be closed for it to work. The supporting elements are close to non-existent. A known known.

And on top of all the technical difficulties, ABM missile systems are financially unworkable. That's one of the reason why Taiwan has been wondering about PAC3 for so many years: A chinese WS guided rocket costs less than 100K USD ( I am not sure about the exact figure, although I remember it's 50K US$), a PAC3 costs 2 Million USD. Evenif PAC3 has 100% success rate, Taiwan would go bankrupt before China fires the first missile/rocket.

Sure.

In principle I agree for the case of Taiwan. However, you don't have to shoot down all incoming BM to cancel out the effect. PAC-3 may be the wrong way to go, as eg ESSM (~90K$) would do well in point defense vs BM's. This alone narrows margins considerably.

 

[wp2000]

I''ll agree to that.



It's not the ability of a BM to hit xyz at t, that is the problem for the ASBM. But the kill-chain has to be closed for it to work. The supporting elements are close to non-existent. A known known.



In principle I agree for the case of Taiwan. However, you don't have to shoot down all incoming BM to cancel out the effect. PAC-3 may be the wrong way to go, as eg ESSM (~90K$) would do well in point defense vs BM's. This alone narrows margins considerably.

Agreed.

But using missile to shoot down missle, this is an almost un-solvable problem: the interceptor missile has to have much better technology than the target missile, which leads to much higher price. Even ESSM, it's good to defend against ASM missiles, but facing land attacking missile and rockets, it's still too expensive to protect a meaningful land area. Although the ESSM missile itself is cheap, the whole system is very expensive.

Anyway, my opinion is, missile ABM/TBM is useless against large volume targets. To make an extreme example, army never tries to use bullet to shoot down enemy bullet, they use passive protection measures plus offensive measures to kill the enemy with bullets.

Oh, well, in Hollywood movies, yes, some heroes can shoot down bullets.

 

[aaaditya]

okay guys,here is a confirmation of what i was saying.

1)india is developing a complete range of air defence missiles.

2)the prime of these would be an exoatmospheric missile and an endoatmospheric missile.

3)the endoatmospheric missile is claimed to be modelled on the pac3 in that it would be able to intercept the incoming missiles closer to earth at about 30kms.

4)the indian ballistic missile defence systems would be able to intercept missiles travelling at a speed of 6kms/second.

5)for this purpose indians used an israeli designed greenpine radar whose original detection range of 500 kms was modified so that it can detect 5kms/sec targets at around 600kms.

6)the radar systems for indian abm when fully developed would be able to detect its targets at distance of 1000kms.

7)the simulated tests on this programme have been going on for the past three years.

8)more than 3million lines of codes were developed for this missile.

9)this missile uses jam proof cdma technology along with multiple data links to provide information redundacy.

10)for this test datalink of upto 1000kms was set up.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7826

Missiles to destroy incoming missiles closer to earth's surface on the cards
First test will take place in first half of 2007, says DRDO

NEW DELHI: "India is developing a complete suite of air defence missiles to destroy all types of hostile missiles," a top Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) scientist said here on Saturday. After successfully conducting a test aimed at intercepting intermediate range ballistic missiles (IRBM) in the exosphere (uppermost layer of atmosphere) last month, India is now working on missiles capable of destroying incoming missiles closer to the earth's surface.
The first test would take place in the first half of 2007. DRDO would then undertake development of missiles with both capabilities.
"The entire project is likely to take three years to complete," said V. K. Saraswat, Chief Controller of DRDO's Missiles and Strategic Systems Division. The shorter-range interceptor missile would have double the range of the American Patriot missiles, he added.
Dwelling on interception by the liquid-fuelled Prithvi missile, Dr. Saraswat said the decision to destroy a missile at a distance of 50 km was undertaken in view of the likely threat perception from IRBMs. Defence scientists were looking at a pack of six missiles to decisively intercept the enemy missile with a kill probability of 99 per cent. They felt two missile batteries would be enough to defend a large city like Delhi or Chennai. The project for developing missile interception capability began three years ago. After several simulations and changes in guidance and control software, the target missile was launched on November 19 this year and intercepted electronically.
This gave DRDO the confidence to conduct a live test a week later. However, the planned launch could not take place because the software to check the health of the subsystems diagnosed the seeker as faulty. "We therefore decided to delay by a day to conduct reconfirmation tests,'' said Dr. Saraswat.
Except for the long-range tracking radar, all other elements were "totally home-grown'' by 35 private and public sector companies. Three million lines of code were written in India for the Mission Control Centre, the hub of software and hardware systems.
A shadow centre was set up to take over if the original centre got destroyed or inactivated. Transmission links to the interceptor missile were based on jam-proof CDMA technology and multiple data transmission links were set up so that if one was jammed the others could function. In this trial, various data transmission and control centres were spread over a distance of 1,000 km. The DRDO modified the Israeli Greenpine radar to enable it detect IRBM missiles with a velocity of 5 km per second from a distance of 600 km.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check this out ,here is an article confirming israels asistance to india,i believe that india calls this version of the greenpine as the swordfish.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7827

In yet another indication of the deep but often covert strategic ties between New Delhi and Tel Aviv, it's now clear that there was an Israeli imprint in the incipient ballistic missile defence (BMD) system tested by India last Monday.

The crucial long-range tracking radar (LRTR) used in the Indian "exo-atmospheric" BMD system, which "successfully intercepted" an incoming Prithvi missile on November 27, owes its origins to the Israeli Green Pine early-warning and fire control radar. India had imported two Green Pine radars, which constitute a crucial part of the Arrow-2 BMD system deployed by Israel to counter the threat of Iranian and other missiles, in a hush-hush manner in 2001-2002.

"Other than the basic radar, which we modified to meet our requirements, all the other elements, hardware and software, are homegrown," said DRDO chief controller R&D, V K Saraswat. Since missile defence can take place both inside (endo) or outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere, DRDO will now test an "endo-atmospheric interceptor" in the next four-five months. The "exo-atmospheric" hypersonic interceptor missile tested on Monday destroyed the Prithvi missile at an altitude of 50-km.

The "endo-atmospheric interceptor", in turn, will shoot the "hostile" missiles much closer to earth with a 30-km range. "Our endo-atmospheric interceptor will be similar to the American Patriot-3 AMD system, which has a 15-km range," said Saraswat.

Though the indigenous BMD system is still several years away from becoming operational, as reported by TOI earlier, it will be a "unique" two-tier system once it is ready. The system will have a mix of the two types of interceptor missiles for a kill probability of 99.8%. "A couple of these missile batteries, for instance, should be able to protect Delhi," said Saraswat. "We have made a very good beginning. At least half-a-dozen tests would be required over the next three years before the system can become ready," he added.

DRDO claims to have modified the Green Pine radars, which can detect targets at ranges up to 500-km and can track them at speeds over 3,000 metre per second. The modifications included making the radar capable of tracking intermediate range ballistic missiles.

​

 

[aaaditya]

india is looking at a anti ballistic missile systems reliability of upto 99%.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys here is some more information about the indian ballistic missile defence,they are going to test fire an improved missile in about 4 months time,this missile will have a better homing sensor and greater manouverability and would be able to intercept enemy missiles at an altitude of 30kms, indians need to carry out another 6 to 7 test fires to validate the missile,for which about 300 million lines of code was written,they are striving for a unit cost of 1.5 million us dollars per missile and a reliability factor of 99.8%.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/04/asia/AS_GEN_India_Missile_System.php

India's newly tested missile interception system will likely be turned into a weapon and deployed within four years, the head of the country's missiles development program said.
India is also working toward testing a newer and faster missile, Vijay Kumar Saraswat said at a news conference late Sunday.
His comments came a week after India's defense ministry said it had conducted its first successful test interception of a ballistic missile, using a rocket to shoot down an incoming missile. The missile was intercepted at an altitude of 50 kilometers (30 miles).
If the interceptor missile, the medium-range and nuclear-capable Prithvi II, can be transformed into a viable defense system, it would see India join an elite club of nations with working missile shields.

Saraswat said the Defense Research and Development Organization of India plans to add an improved homing device and faster maneuverability to the interceptor missile to shoot down an "enemy" missile at an altitude below 30 kilometers (20 miles).
The upgraded version, which will also be able to target aircraft, will be tested within four months.
"This is being done to increase the killing probability of our intercepting missile and to leave no leakage in the air defense system," Saraswat said.
Six to seven more tests are needed over the next four years before the interception system could be made into a weapon, he added.
The tests will involve firing five intercepting missiles two seconds apart to guarantee that an incoming missile is destroyed. Saraswat expected the success rate in intercepting a missile would be 99.8 percent.
India could produce 200 interceptor missiles a year, at a cost of 60 million rupees (US$1.3 million) each, Saraswat said.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,great news,brazil is interested in acquiring the brahmos supersonic cruise missiles.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7834


Brazil has shown interest in becoming the first foreign nation to procure the 300-km range Brahmos cruise missile.
Commander of the Brazilian army Gen Francisco Roberto De Albuqurque now on a six-day state visit here today visited the Brahmos aerospace complex in Delhi cantonment. He also held discussions with the Brahmos project director S Pillai.
The South American nation has shown interest in acquiring the sea as well as surface to surface version of the Indo-Russian missiles.
While, the sea version of the missile has already entered service with the Indian Navy, the surface to surface version of missile has been cleared for induction early next year.
The Brazilian Chief of Defence Staff held discussion with Chairman Chiefs of staff Committee S P Tyagi, Army Chief J J Singh, Naval Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta and Defence Secretary Shekhar Dutt.
He also called on the Defence Minister AK Antony. During his stay in India, De Alburqurque will visit counter insurgency warfare school in Mizoram, Eastern Command headquarters, Line of control in Jammu and Kashmir and Agra.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,great news ,the akash missile is ready for user trials.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7853


Development work on country's surface to air Akash guided missile has been completed and the system is ready for trials by the Indian Air Force, Defence Minister A K Antony told Rajya Sabha today.
"After the user trials, the missile will enter production and induction," the Minister said in a written reply.
He said Nag, the fourth generation anti-tank missile, was also ready for user trials by the army.
On Trishul missile, Antony said all development work had been completed and the DRDO was in dialogue with the IAF for possible induction.
He said before this the DRDO and the IAF would jointly develop the user trial criteria.
To a question by Vijay Darda whether Government recently had taken a review of major DRDO projects like missiles, artillery location radars and Arjun Main Battle Tank, the Minister said though no particular review had been undertaken, projects of DRDO were subject to review by various committees.
"Even experts from outside are invited to carry out such reviews," he said.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,check out this article it contains some information on the arrow and sv300 missile's ,also it shows the criteria followed by the defence planners when they evaluated these missiles.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7852

Repeated tests will prove the system's potency
System comparable to Israeli Arrow and Russian S-300V

NEW DELHI: The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists were guarded about the successful mid-air missile interception over the Bay of Bengal on November 27, but defended the interception system's capability against competing products and technologies.
A ``good beginning'' had been made but only repeated tests would prove the system's potency. Many more tests were required to intercept missiles on different flight paths. They were yet to increase the interception capability to over 50 km by changing the range parametres or putting the missile on ships. The high closing speed of the interceptor missile left very little reaction time. This implied further improvements. ``A single successful experiment does not mean deliverance,'' said a scientist. Besides, the DRDO is yet to configure target information delivery from satellites and, therefore, has to depend on ground-based radars. ``We have conducted the test to prove the technology. We are yet to convert it into a delivery system because of these reasons,'' he added.
DRDO's missile and strategic systems chief V. K. Saraswat was confident that the indigenous system was comparable to the Israeli Arrow and the Russian S-300V anti-missile missiles. Both countries along with the U.S. (Patriot) have been trying to sell their missiles to India.
``We intercepted at 50 km while the Arrow does that at 40 km. According to my interpretation, any lower than that and it will go in our landmass,'' he said. As for the Russian S-300V, ``we have studied their capability in a big way and its radars and other network cannot engage missiles of this class.'' He said the liquid fuel technology was not a drawback as in the 1950s and 1960s. A liquid fuel missile can be filled at any depot in any part of the country. ``The liquid fuel technology of today does not impair reaction time or performance. There is no handicap at all. It has an equivalent life of seven years as compared to a solid fuel missile.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,here are some great news:

1)india is to test a mach7 capable scram jet engine next year,a mach 2 variant has already been successfully tested (there have long been reports of a posible mach8 capable brahmos cruise missile).

2)a prototype of the indigenous airbreathing vehicle is being developed,it will be tested in the year 2008 ,it will be 7 meters long and will be capable of 20 second flight at mach7.

3)this will enable india to develop smaller ,faster and lighter aircrafts ,which would be capable of drawing oxygen from atmosphere and using it as fuel.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7876

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is planning to conduct ground tests for the country’s first flight version of a Supersonic Combustion Ramjet (Scramjet) engine in Hyderabad next year. This is will be followed by the first Scramjet flight test in 2008.

The design of a flight version of the Scramjet engine is on and it will be ground tested in 2007, followed by a flight test a year later, Chief Controller R&D (Service Interaction), DRDO, Dr Prahlada, told The Indian Express on the sidelines of a conference on ‘Air Breathing Engines and Aerospace Propulsion’ at the Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (DIAT) here on Tuesday.
As per plan, the flight test will be carried out onboard an indigenous platform, a prototype of which has already been developed by DRDO. “The vehicle will be 7-m long and we have already developed a prototype for the test. It will enter a 20-second long flight to go up to mach 7,” Dr Prahlada said. DRDO has already ground tested a scramjet engine to speeds in excess of Mach 2, he added. A Scramjet engine makes it possible to design smaller, lighter and faster aircraft as it takes oxygen needed for fuel combustion from the atmosphere itself instead of carrying liquid oxygen.