French authorize troops to shoot down threatening Israeli planes

[Patzek]

So as I said, I do not know the second incident with the unarmed ship.

I've never heared of it before you told me about it.

The F-16 were very far from the ship, much much too far for a Vulcan to hit something.
Give me 1 good reason for the F-16 to shoot the ship, and not hitting? what does they think it will do? run away 500km\h fast?
I know the pilots who were involved in this incident since they came from my base, they never fired at the German ship, actually they never done anything to it.
All the Germans saw was automatic systems, no one had any intentions of scaring the Germans.
And trust me on this, if any one of them had the intentions to sink the ship, they would've.

Don't ask me why they said the F-16 " shot them ". They never mentiouned the type of ammunition used, nothing besides " F-16 fired two shots ".
This is beyond ridicolous, and sounds to me like the German reported on flares beeing released and the MEDIA turned it to shots because of lack of knowledge.

And btw, There's no such thing shooting " 2 shots " using a 20mm Vulcan.
If you'll ever see a Vulcan shooting you'll understand why.

At all, this "2 shots " thing is just ridicolous. and i'm almost 100% sure the media got confused with the flares.

No F-16 shot anything at the ship.

 

[eckherl]

I could not explain it better or more precisely than you did.

@Patzek
Do you think our ELINT shipcrew is not able to differ between flares and salvos? Those men are not civilian fun sailors but professional naval soldiers.
To talk of them as untrained men is a little bit weird.

And why should the "Alster" not know that the F-16 fired the 20mm Vulcan while they overflown the ship?
You can see the smoke of the gun or the light of the bullets (I cannot remember the english name for ammo which lights up after being fired normally used in MGs. Native speakers?).
This is a Navy ELINT ship. It is not like they just use their 5$ Walmart glasses for observation.

Tracer ammunition is the english term you are looking for, it will fly at 2 to 4 feet higher than regular ball ammunition, so aim for the base of the target.

 

[eckherl]

So as I said, I do not know the second incident with the unarmed ship.

I've never heared of it before you told me about it.

The F-16 were very far from the ship, much much too far for a Vulcan to hit something.
Give me 1 good reason for the F-16 to shoot the ship, and not hitting? what does they think it will do? run away 500km\h fast?
I know the pilots who were involved in this incident since they came from my base, they never fired at the German ship, actually they never done anything to it.
All the Germans saw was automatic systems, no one had any intentions of scaring the Germans.
And trust me on this, if any one of them had the intentions to sink the ship, they would've.

Don't ask me why they said the F-16 " shot them ". They never mentiouned the type of ammunition used, nothing besides " F-16 fired two shots ".
This is beyond ridicolous, and sounds to me like the German reported on flares beeing released and the MEDIA turned it to shots because of lack of knowledge.

And btw, There's no such thing shooting " 2 shots " using a 20mm Vulcan.
If you'll ever see a Vulcan shooting you'll understand why.

At all, this "2 shots " thing is just ridicolous. and i'm almost 100% sure the media got confused with the flares.

No F-16 shot anything at the ship.

You have a good point in re gards to the vulcan.

 

[eckherl]

Thats a good question.

About the late sixties its correct, the average age of the pilots who bombed the Egyptian airforce in 1967 was 20.
During the present time its hard to tell, but i'll guess its about 30-34, even that I really couldn't know the specific age.

That is quite alot of responsibility placed on someone at that age.
And I have heard that they performed a outstanding job.

 

[Grand Danois]

You have a good point in re gards to the vulcan.

There is some confusion about this. "Two bursts" and "two shots" have been used in the press. And it is also possible that the "shooting of flares" can be misinterpreted.

I think besides the confusion of terms there may be some translation issues at play as well.

However, if the Israeli govt did apologise for the Alster incident and had to change its story, then it suggests that more than overflight and flares where involved.

 

[eckherl]

There is some confusion about this. "Two bursts" and "two shots" have been used in the press. And it is also possible that the "shooting of flares" can be misinterpreted.

I think besides the confusion of terms there may be some translation issues at play as well.

However, if the Israeli govt did apologise for the Alster incident and had to change its story, then it suggests that more than overflight and flares where involved.

Agreed - Israel did offer a apology and hopefully with UNIFIL forces firmly emplaced now we will not have any more hostility or miscommunication issue`s from both forces.

 

[Grand Danois]

Agreed - Israel did offer a apology and hopefully with UNIFIL forces firmly emplaced now we will not have any more hostility or miscommunication issue`s from both forces.

Some friction should be expected with the locals when a "new" military presence establishes itself.

But over time, as familiarity sets in, that friction should become less.

 

[Waylander]

@Eckherl
Thank you for the tracer term.

As to the ship.
The MoD did not say that the F-16 fired at the ship but over it. Like warning shots. They talked of shots/salvos AND of flares.
I know that you do not shoot just two rounds with a Vulcan.

The Israeli government apologized for this incident (Would they if it wouldn't be true?) and I really hope that the situation normalizes.
Would be the best for all parties.

I hope you don't think that I am biased against Israel or the IDF.
I really regard every soldiers who defends his country and Israel is for sure pinned down in a very hostile environment.
But critics are allowed and necessary for everybody.

 

[Patzek]

That is quite alot of responsibility placed on someone at that age.
And I have heard that they performed a outstanding job.

Even that I'm not an F-16 pilot, i'm been given a few million dollars machine in my hands, in order to kill with it, and I'm 19..

One of the characteristics of Israelis is their maturity, and it have a very obvious reason.

When you been given so much responsibillity in young age, you grow up with it.

I just don't get how childish I was less than 2 years ago at High school, all the stupid things me and my friends were doing, and 1 and a half year later I'm responssible for a multi million dollar flying machine, and a kid like me have the authority to kill people. Who the hell am I to decide who deserve to die and who isn't? I finished High School one and a half years ago.

But you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[Ibizan Hound]

Ibizan, thanks for posting.

Please remember, your personal comments/input is required when quoting/posting news articles otherwise thread maybe deleted/locked, etc.

Rules
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

Thanks and enjoy!

I didn't post anything because when you post a comment with news it tends to sway respinses one way or another. For instance, if I opposed Eckerhl would have challenged. If I was for then the others may have commented and I pretty much wanted honest opinions.

 

[Ibizan Hound]

What that happened later was just because the German ship tried to lock on the F-16 and the aircraft's Electronic Warfare suites just jammed their systems automaticlly, and this is what the Germans reported that happened, only that they didn't understand that it was a direct response to their systems ( automaticlly systems as well ) that tried to lock on the aircrafts.

You left out that this is also the reason why France can't fire their weaponry at israeli fighters. The germans admitted that their equipment jam. France claims everything else about it was their decision. This conflict/war would be interesting. I feel Israel could eventually over-power Germany. As far as France, it's clear, their electronics are inferior from their present situation but they would put up quite a display.

 

[eckherl]

You left out that this is also the reason why France can't fire their weaponry at israeli fighters. The germans admitted that their equipment jam. France claims everything else about it was their decision. This conflict/war would be interesting. I feel Israel could eventually over-power Germany. As far as France, it's clear, their electronics are inferior from their present situation but they would put up quite a display.

Let`s all hope that it will never come to this type of scenario.

 

[swerve]

You left out that this is also the reason why France can't fire their weaponry at israeli fighters. The germans admitted that their equipment jam. France claims everything else about it was their decision. This conflict/war would be interesting. I feel Israel could eventually over-power Germany. As far as France, it's clear, their electronics are inferior from their present situation but they would put up quite a display.

That's an interesting idea. Can you explain it, please? I'm interested in how F-16s can prevent the launch of IR-guidd missiles by jamming them.

 

[Aussie Digger]

That's an interesting idea. Can you explain it, please? I'm interested in how F-16s can prevent the launch of IR-guidd missiles by jamming them.

They must be fitted with DIRCM or similar systems...

 

[Patzek]

This scenario is not real, don't be confused.

Whatever diffrences we have with France, they're our friends, and our allies.
Our Prime minister visited France few months ago, he was invited specially by the French goverment, we talk with France Germany and Britain the same we talk with the US, we see all of them the same. No matter how much support we get from them or doesn't get, they was and will be our allies.
Countries might have differences, it can happen, war is far far far from it.

I'm hoping to be informed in the next few days that the IDF will start sharing information with UNIFIL armed forces in Lebanon, and I hope to see the French start to get their hands a little dirty and do something to help us here.

Ibizan Hound, you're correct, but whatever you might know about Israel's systems, please keep it private and don't talk about it in public forums.

Your information might be totally wrong, and maybe totally true, but not authorized to be published.

The information I can give you is authorized to be published, and the chance that it is not true doesn't exists here.


Swerve, to your question.
It is a very nice question, and with that its also a very complicated one.
Specific details about Israel's counter-measures system on the F-16D\I F-15ABCD\E , is classified, and no one will give you this specific information about the systems.
But I can give you a very general information.

The Israeli Electronic Warfare systems are very very different from other Western countries opposite systems, if you'll look on Europe's, United State's, ( obviously NATO ), and general western countries, you'll find that their systems are very very similiar, but ours different.
Without going into details, the Western world went on a similiar structure "", and the changes are in the power of the systems, their model, maybe changes in specific details that I don't even understand, but generally, similiar.
Israel went on a totally different direction, and this is why the Israeli Electronic Warfare systems are for domestic use only, and the systems we do export are special system for export that in most cases you wont find in the IDF. Because those systems are for our eyes only, and if someone else will get them, we obviously lost our obvious advantage with the secrecy of those systems.

I'm too, quite very much was left in the dark with most of those system's specifications, just because I don't need to know.
I was revealed to a very specific level of systems as part of my training in the IAF, and this is how I got the general picture I'm telling you now ( without the details of who why and how much ).

Our F-16( C\D and I models, not A\B ) and F-15 ( all those who recieved Baz 2000 upgrade and of course the I (E) model ), got inside very very advanced Electronic systems inside, and part of their job is to jam IR guided missiles, but generally they can do everything, with enormous power, only that in our case the system's advantage doesn't base on WATT power of the transmitter, but on other things.

But I highly doubt our aircrafts will be able to escape the French missiles if they really want them down, they can't escape forever, advanced as they are.
Aircrafts doesn't suppose and aren't built to play Hide and Seek with French advanced SA missiles, if we doesn't attack them, in the end they'll succeed of taking us, cause in a real operation, those french will never be alive after the first time, and the systems are made for such case.


I know I was too general, but this is what I can give.

If you have any other question i'll be happy to try and answer.

 

[Patzek]

By the way,
Since a cease-fire started with the Palestinians, My vacation is beeing extended =))).
They suppose to tell me today till when, probably a week or so ( still getting time from the 38-straight days in Lebanon ).

But we can assume this cease-fire will end shortly and they will drag my ass back to the border.

 

[eckherl]

By the way,
Since a cease-fire started with the Palestinians, My vacation is beeing extended =))).
They suppose to tell me today till when, probably a week or so ( still getting time from the 38-straight days in Lebanon ).

But we can assume this cease-fire will end shortly and they will drag my ass back to the border.

Be prepared to go, just read it on CNN news that somebody has already launched some rockets after the ceasefire.

 

[Patzek]

Be prepared to go, just read it on CNN news that somebody has already launched some rockets after the ceasefire.

Indeed, but as for now it continues with new promises from Hanya that they will keep it.

Let us hope it will ( for my sake =).

 

[Waylander]

I wonder how a system can be jammed which doesn't exist on the vessel.
I never heard of any of our FFGs or FACs tried to lock on an IAF F-16. And those are the only german ships there with AA-systems (76mm, ESSM, RAM).

I'm also interested in how you jam IR-guided missiles by using active systems.
These missiles (Let'S take Stinger as an example) are just not active and the only way to disturb them is to cover your heat emissions and by using flares.

 

[Patzek]

I wonder how a system can be jammed which doesn't exist on the vessel.
I never heard of any of our FFGs or FACs tried to lock on an IAF F-16. And those are the only german ships there with AA-systems (76mm, ESSM, RAM).

I'm also interested in how you jam IR-guided missiles by using active systems.
These missiles (Let'S take Stinger as an example) are just not active and the only way to disturb them is to cover your heat emissions and by using flares.

That's not true.

The incident with the F-16 and the German helicopter was involved with radars trying to lock on the F-16.
Note, it might doesn't have anything to do with Sea-Air missiles exists or doesn't exist on the ship.
If the ship sensors \ radars was locked on the F-16, no matter what they were trying to do, getting information or trying to jam the F-16 systems so it wont go againts it, its the same.
Even that I highly doubt what we had there didn't invovled with AA missiles.
ELINT ships in most cases have weapons to defend themselves, specially Sea-Air missiles, or ammunition of this kind or another, which in our case will be the same for the F-16 counter measures systems.

About the IR part, I really can't give you much. I don't know a lot about it, and whatever I know is not for public reading.
But I can tell you that its nothing like systems such as the AAQ24 of NG, ours works very differently, even that I really don't know how good it is, or whether it works at all or not. No one actually confirmed that the French tried anything on our aircrafts.