Marlin AIP SSK

[contedicavour]

So how many Marlins is Pakistan interested in buying? 3 or 6? It is also interested in 4 U214 fuel cell SSKs to replace the 4 Dauphin French submarines that were retired earlier this year.

From the latest news Pakistan will remain 100% French in its SSK acquisition plans. From an R&D and maintenance point of view, mixing Agosta, Agosta 90B, and Marlins with U214 would be a nightmare even for a big advanced Western navy.

cheers

 

[SATAN]

From the latest news Pakistan will remain 100% French in its SSK acquisition plans. From an R&D and maintenance point of view, mixing Agosta, Agosta 90B, and Marlins with U214 would be a nightmare even for a big advanced Western navy.
cheers

So i guess that means a purchase of SIX Marlins. According to initial reports on the Marlin, it was alluded that they would be similar to the Spanish S-80 subs with a displacement of 4000 tons each. Now according to DCN/AMARIS ....the Marlins are going to have a displacement of only 1,800 tons making it a bit larger than the Agosta 90B class.

 

[contedicavour]

So i guess that means a purchase of SIX Marlins. According to initial reports on the Marlin, it was alluded that they would be similar to the Spanish S-80 subs with a displacement of 4000 tons each. Now according to DCN/AMARIS ....the Marlins are going to have a displacement of only 1,800 tons making it a bit larger than the Agosta 90B class.

The Marlins are DCN only, contrary to the Scorpene that were a joint venture between Spanish and French shipyards.
Hence I would stick to DCN estimates. However the sub design is modular and it can be extended.
Regarding the total numbers ordered, I would think of 3 or 4 to replace the older Agosta.

cheers

 

[Ligreton]

Originally Posted by SATAN
So i guess that means a purchase of SIX Marlins. According to initial reports on the Marlin, it was alluded that they would be similar to the Spanish S-80 subs with a displacement of 4000 tons each. Now according to DCN/AMARIS ....the Marlins are going to have a displacement of only 1,800 tons making it a bit larger than the Agosta 90B class.

I think that the Marlin is a Scorpene a bit larger and more advanced. 1800t. A very interesting think about it is the capacity to obtain hydrogen from the gasoil, it makes logistic easy. But there is to obtain the oxygen...

The spanish S-80 is a sub bigger for the oceanic requirements of the Spanish Navy. A sub non nuclear, 2500t, AIP system based on ethanol (safer) and fuel cells with longe(?) autonomy that Abengoa and UTC are developping, and VLS with TacTom tactical missiles. :vamp

Pakistan is interested in buying 3 or 4 subs for 1200m$. The S80 has been offered.

 

[contedicavour]

I think that the Marlin is a Scorpene a bit larger and more advanced. 1800t. A very interesting think about it is the capacity to obtain hydrogen from the gasoil, it makes logistic easy. But there is to obtain the oxygen...

The spanish S-80 is a sub bigger for the oceanic requirements of the Spanish Navy. A sub non nuclear, 2500t, AIP system based on ethanol (safer) and fuel cells with longe(?) autonomy that Abengoa and UTC are developping, and VLS with TacTom tactical missiles. :vamp

Pakistan is interested in buying 3 or 4 subs for 1200m$. The S80 has been offered.

Interesting. Though the press mentions only DCN's Marlin and HDW's U212 (actually U214). Do you know if the S-80 is still among the bidders to the Pakistani Navy's tender for 3 SSKs ?

cheers

 

[SATAN]

S-80

The Spanish Armada, through Navantia, entrusted Indra with the development and introduction of radars and defence electronic systems in S-80 submarines and the Friend-Foe identification systems (IFF) for 24.2 million euros. The award of three critical systems for the new generation of submarines means for Indra, the chance to enter into one of the key programmes of the Defence's Strategic Review, whose aim is to provide the Spanish Army with air, land and maritime state of the art means to guarantee national security as well as the participation of the allied countries in the programmes. Indra will develop and introduce the defence electronic systems for the S-80 submarines which will enable them to detect, analyze, identify and alert about possible threats through radar signals and communications being transmitted. The above mentioned systems will also allow follow up and registration. The Spanish company will implant in the four S-80 submarines, ordered to Navantia, a system of its own named Pegaso. The systems has a modular design and a possibility to reconfigure making it flexible and versatile to be adapted to different platforms, besides its high accuracy when optimizing maintenance processes. Pegaso also possesses a big capacity for command, control and integrated training. The radars will be based on the Aries systems developed by Indra and which are currently operative in surface ships. These radars are low probability of interception type (LPI) and will also perform exploration tasks. The contract includes adapting the Aries systems to submarine platforms as well as its implant in the four S-80 submarines. The Friend-Foe identification systems will incorporate the new NATO identification mode 5 whose main function will be self-identification under any interrogation signal request, allowing a reliable recognition among allies. Indra's participation in the S-80 programme implies an acknowledgement of the company's skills in the surveillance and electronic defence areas. Thus, it will also allow to generate a high technology Spanish solution, exportable to other allied countries. The S-80 submarine was fully designed by Navantia. It is a conventional submersible with a high degree of independence and discretion. Its cutting edge technology makes it, among submarines, a state of the art, placing Navantia as one of the greatest submarine designers and manufacturers. The four S-80 submarines will be operative between 2011 and 2014.



Source : Indra
Date : 7/24/2006

 

[SATAN]

Interesting. Though the press mentions only DCN's Marlin and HDW's U212 (actually U214). Do you know if the S-80 is still among the bidders to the Pakistani Navy's tender for 3 SSKs ?
cheers

Actually the Pakistan Navy was very interested in the S-80. Its just that Lockheed Martin is developing the combat systems for the S-80 and Pakistan doesnt want any American involvement in its Submarine programs. Hence the Marlin as its first and most favored choice.

Now the U214 has been mentioned a lot. Maybe Pakistan buys it along with the Marlins, who knows...although the U214 does have a more efficient AIP system .

 

[birdofprey]

navy is not realy my field, i would like some one to compare and contrast these French Subs... Augosta 90B, scorpenes, and marlin "the project?".what ratings would you give them out of 10, and what place do they stand in the world..

 

[contedicavour]

navy is not realy my field, i would like some one to compare and contrast these French Subs... Augosta 90B, scorpenes, and marlin "the project?".what ratings would you give them out of 10, and what place do they stand in the world..

It depends on what criteria you want to rank them on... Agosta is an 1980s design, Scorpene is in line with the most modern AIP equipped SSKs, Marlin is a big question mark as the project isn't even finalized yet.
Overall what I perceive as a weakness on all French subs is an old main torpedo, the ECAN 17P, with very short range compared with Spearfish or American Mk48s or the German DM2A4 or even our Finmeccanica WASS Blackshark. Other weakness, the SM39 sub launched Exocet which has a relatively short range compared with sub launched Harpoon or any of today's cruise missiles.

cheers

 

[Ligreton]

Hello,

Do you know if the S-80 is still among the bidders to the Pakistani Navy's tender for 3 SSKs ?

I dont know, the last info i have was this summer. In other forums the S80 is not mentioned. Maybe because it is excluded or because a spanish sub could not be as good as a french or german sub, for them... I read in some Asian forums that we only know make olive oil. :lul

Also France has much more diplomatic relations with Pakistan than Spain. And the DCN relation with the Pakistany Navy in the recent past. DCN is preferred over other companies.
But Pakistan wants the sub Harpoon and the french don´t want to integrate american weapons in french plataforms. This can be a chance for the S80 or U214 ??

navy is not realy my field, i would like some one to compare and contrast these French Subs... Augosta 90B, scorpenes, and marlin "the project?".what ratings would you give them out of 10, and what place do they stand in the world..

Well, i'm not expert in submarines i only know some of them, but the Franco-Spanish Scorpene is more advanced than the Agosta. The Scorpene is designed in the 90's by DCN and Izar (Navantia now) for export. The Agosta in the 70's, and now the Marlin and the S80 are based in the Scorpene. Among Agosta, U209, U212, U214, Scorpene, Marlin and S80. About Kilo, Amur, Gotland, Collins... i dont know.
My qualifications:

Agosta and U209 (4)
U212 (6)
Scorpene (7)
U214 and ¿Marlin? (8)
S80 (9) because i'm form Spain and the tactical missiles incorpored, very important. If there were no tactom, it would be like a U214. This is already a project, but the AIP is going to be as good as the U214 or better...

 

[contedicavour]

Hello,




I dont know, the last info i have was this summer. In other forums the S80 is not mentioned. Maybe because it is excluded or because a spanish sub could not be as good as a french or german sub, for them... I read in some Asian forums that we only know make olive oil. :lul

Also France has much more diplomatic relations with Pakistan than Spain. And the DCN relation with the Pakistany Navy in the recent past. DCN is preferred over other companies.
But Pakistan wants the sub Harpoon and the french don´t want to integrate american weapons in french plataforms. This can be a chance for the S80 or U214 ??




Well, i'm not expert in submarines i only know some of them, but the Franco-Spanish Scorpene is more advanced than the Agosta. The Scorpene is designed in the 90's by DCN and Izar (Navantia now) for export. The Agosta in the 70's, and now the Marlin and the S80 are based in the Scorpene. Among Agosta, U209, U212, U214, Scorpene, Marlin and S80. About Kilo, Amur, Gotland, Collins... i dont know.
My qualifications:

Agosta and U209 (4)
U212 (6)
Scorpene (7)
U214 and ¿Marlin? (8)
S80 (9) because i'm form Spain and the tactical missiles incorpored, very important. If there were no tactom, it would be like a U214. This is already a project, but the AIP is going to be as good as the U214 or better...

The U214 aren't superior to the U212As ... actually the U214 is more of an export version of U212A.

cheers

 

[Ligreton]

Ok, thanks for the info. I thaught the 214 was superior to the 212. In naval-technology: :unknown

TYPE 214

HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212. The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. It is scheduled to commission in 2006. Hellenic Shipyards will build the second (Pipinos S121) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga, for commission in 2008-09. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW in May 2002. AA fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123), was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2010.

South Korea has also ordered three Type 214, to enter service in 2007, 2008 and 2009. These will be built by Hyundai Heavy Industries.

The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.

I always thought the U212 was inferior to the 214
The U212 is very similar to the 214, then i give them 7,5 or 8 points
To give points is very relative, hehe

 

[birdofprey]

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Headlines/Nov06/09/10.htm

Pakistan to acquire three latest subs

* German, French companies to bid for contracts
* Subs to cost Pakistan Rs 77b

By Iqbal Khattak

PARIS: Pakistan will acquire three new advanced versions of conventional submarines to increase its naval capabilities to meet any challenges from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, a French Defence Ministry spokesman said.

The spokesman said that German and French companies would bid to win the contract for the three submarines, which were said to be the latest version of the Agosta submarines a French company recently built in Karachi, which India has already acquired. “We will offer (Pakistan) Marlin submarines to compete with the German bid for its U-212 submarines,” Jean-Francois Bureau, the French Defence Ministry spokesman in Paris, told Daily Times late Tuesday evening. Pakistan will need to pay around one billion euros or Rs 77 billion for the three non-nuclear submarines. The quest for new submarines comes after India reached a 1.5 billion euro deal last year with a French company for seven Scorpion submarines – even more recent than the Agosta submarines that Pakistan built last year in Karachi under licence from a French company.

But even with the Marlin or U-212 submarines, the Pakistan Navy will lag behind the Indians, as the Scorpion submarines are believed to be technologically superior.

France-Pakistan defence relations improved after the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, but received a serious setback in 2002 when 11 French engineers were killed in a suicide attack near the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi.

But military relations between Pakistan and France resumed after the attack on the French engineers, the French Defence Ministry spokesman said after a briefing to a group of visiting journalists from Pakistan. France does not sell nuclear-powered submarines “as a matter of policy” said the spokesman to dispel the impression that the new submarines could carry nuclear weapons. He said the “question of regional stability” was the criterion for selling French-made weapons to countries around the world, hoping Pakistan and India would stay away from the arms race.

The Scorpion subs are technologically superior to the Agosta, Marlin and U-212 submarines. However, Scorpion subs cannot carry nuclear weapons and India will not get them before 2016.If the French company wins the bid, Pakistan will have to wait for eight years before getting the submarines, the spokesman added.

Jean-Francois Bureau said senior Pakistani and French military officials would meet January next year in either Paris or Islamabad to strengthen relations between the two armies.He said there was potential for the two armies to strengthen relations and did not rule out joint military exercises in future saying, “We are not against joint exercises with Pakistan.” The spokesman said that France was helping Pakistan upgrade its Mirage fighters in Kamra near Islamabad and a Pakistan army officer was attending courses at a French staff college.
Courtesy DailyTimes.com.pk
________________________________________________________________


how much of an advantage with the fallowing cruise missiles give to pakistani subs over Scorpions... Babur cruise missiles a reverse-engineer of Tomahawk with a range of 500km and a planed Babur 2 with 1,000km! Testing is undergoing with the Sub version. AGM-84 UGM-84L (submarine-launched) the most advanced anti ship missile in the world and with a deadly range of 140km!

 

[Ligreton]

But even with the Marlin or U-212 submarines, the Pakistan Navy will lag behind the Indians, as the Scorpion submarines are believed to be technologically superior

stranger, Scorpene more advanced than Marlin ???

i hope it, the scorpene is very advanced and is also spanish, but i think this is wrong.

 

[birdofprey]

stranger, Scorpene more advanced than Marlin ???

i hope it, the scorpene is very advanced and is also spanish, but i think this is wrong.

i dough the "scorpene beeing more advanced then Marlin"! i belive there is a mistake in the report.

 

[contedicavour]

Ok, thanks for the info. I thaught the 214 was superior to the 212. In naval-technology: :unknown



I always thought the U212 was inferior to the 214
The U212 is very similar to the 214, then i give them 7,5 or 8 points
To give points is very relative, hehe

The U214 is more "oceanic" than the U212, hence larger size and max diving depth. That's true. However the AIP systems are similar if not identical. The difference is thus on the sonars, the weapons and the centralized combat & information system. The U212As have low frequency passive towed array sonars plus active/passive flank sonars, etc. How can you do better than that ? Weapons-wise, they carry either the German DM2A4 or the Italian Blackshark, both very modern heavy torpedoes. SSM integration is a well-kept secret, but several sources confirm Sub-Harpoon can be integrated (though the U212's main role in both German and Italian navies is ASW).

To summarize, the U214 is a U212 derivative conceived for export and "oceanic" navies. Then you have to check which sonars, weapons, etc the acquirers plan to integrate.

cheers

 

[birdofprey]

contedicavour you seem to know alot about naval technologys so can you answer to my post# 93...
anyway why doesn't the webmaster make you defence analysis?

 

[contedicavour]

contedicavour you seem to know alot about naval technologys so can you answer to my post# 93...
anyway why doesn't the webmaster make you defence analysis?

Well it's because I'm not in the defence industry although I know people who are
A potential Pakistani Marlin modified with Babur (it will take quite a lot of work to integrate such a big missile though, so don't take it for granted) would be very dangerous for the bases of India's navy which could be attacked without warning.
However India can answer back with Kilos equipped with Klub-S, or even potentially with its SSNs when they will materialize.
In a clash between Scopene and Marlin SSKs though (IMHO this should be a primary mission in case of conflict) it will be very hard to say who has an edge... mainly because equipment and weaponry of the Marlins are far from being finalized.

cheers

 

[griffinoo]

Well it's because I'm not in the defence industry although I know people who are
A potential Pakistani Marlin modified with Babur (it will take quite a lot of work to integrate such a big missile though, so don't take it for granted) would be very dangerous for the bases of India's navy which could be attacked without warning.
However India can answer back with Kilos equipped with Klub-S, or even potentially with its SSNs when they will materialize.
In a clash between Scopene and Marlin SSKs though (IMHO this should be a primary mission in case of conflict) it will be very hard to say who has an edge... mainly because equipment and weaponry of the Marlins are far from being finalized.

cheers

it has now been confirmed that the second version of the Babur cruise missile has been developed after some modifications. It is capable of being fired from submarines, in this case Pakistan's Agosta-90B.. the 2nd version has a range of 1,000km!

 

[kams]

it has now been confirmed that the second version of the Babur cruise missile has been developed after some modifications. It is capable of being fired from submarines, in this case Pakistan's Agosta-90B.. the 2nd version has a range of 1,000km!

What is the diameter of Babur 2?