Italy, Russia to jointly develop SSKs.

[PhillTaj]

Russian and Italian firms are working up technical drawings for a new diesel submarine for the export market, even as they start scrapping some of their own older subs.

Fincantieri and Russian submarine-builder Rubin are in the second phase of developing a 1,000-ton conventional submarine, the S1000, which will be equipped with an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system said to be capable of staying underwater for 10 days. The project was launched by the Italian government in April 2004.

“Rubin presented a blueprint of the submarine to the Italian Defense Ministry six months ago and is now at the second stage, preparing the technical draft that should be ready by the end of next year,†said Yuri Kormilitsyn, chief designer of non-nuclear submarines at the Rubin Central Design Bureau, St. Petersburg.

It was too early to say when the sub might begin construction, Kormilitsyn said.

Fincantieri declined to comment on its progress, but has said the S1000 will be 40 to 50 meters long with a top speed of 14 knots, a crew of 16 and maximum depth of 250 meters. The S1000 will be designed for anti-submarine warfare, intelligence-surveillance-reconnaissance, and transporting up to 12 special forces troops. Other missions could include anti-surface warfare, mine-laying and air operations support.

An Italian industrial source said Fincantieri is developing a new fuel-cell-powered AIP system.

Rubin’s Kormilitsyn confirmed that Italy would provide the S1000’s AIP technology.

The Italian source said the AIP system would not be the same one that is going on two U-212-class subs, being built under license from Germany’s HDW by Fincantieri for delivery to the Italian Navy this decade.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1399206&C=navwar

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Interesting.....however, I am not sure what market they will aim at? I was under the impression that French and German firms dominate the world industry-with Russia struggling with niche markets in India and China (but they are about to lose the India SSK market). Italy cant export to China such sensitive systems as AIP can they? Does AIP come under the EU arms ban? Anyways, China probably wont import any more foreign units.

Im just having trouble trying to figure out what the hell they think they are doing.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Looking at the specs I think this is a sub to operate in a Littoral environment, such as the Med for the Italian Navy and the Baltic for the Russian Navy.

As for exports, the EU has been talking about lifting the ban on arms exports to China, however I am sure that even if the ban is lifted the USN will not want to see these subs, with modern western systems deployed opposite Taiwan.

The issue will be whether Russia will have the technology to sell the subs independent of Italy.

Other nations that would be interested: Singapore, maybe some of the Gulf States? Just speculation on my part.

 

[Dr Phobus]

Interesting article,

Well, there are plently of country's that need SSK's, south american, far east that would be in the market for an affordable, small, cheap to operate SSK. Remeber the French export MESA S-90B's to Nuclear armed Pakistan ! Even possible some smaller european nations maybe interested, aka Demark, who are on the verge of letting their sub force go.

So I am not convinced that AIP will be an exclusive technology for too long. The Germans, Swedes, French and Russians (prototype i think) all have such systems, the Japanese are working on a system.

Singapore are also about to purchase A-35 Kochum class from the Swedes I do not know if this will have AIP unit, I argue that that in time they will do so. The Israil's new batch of Dolphin subs are rumoured to be AIP equipped (another nulcear power).

AIP will be the norm not the exception. Any one want to take a guess how long the Chinese will be without AIP, of the Inidans. Of course they can just import it form the Russians. Chilie could have purchases the AIP option, but did not.

 

[aaaditya]

I believe this submarine will be based on amur950 in terms of design equipped with the italian aip fuel cells,the specifications provided in the article seem to match with the amur which is being developed by rubin.

However i feel that the diving depth is too low,i hope it does not effect the performance of this submarines in deep waters.

By the way would be interesting to find out more about the italian aip fuel cell.

Has anyone got any info on it or can post the link of fincanterri?

 

[Dr Phobus]

This design sounds primiarly like a littoral submarine design, with some ocean patrol ability. Therefore the limited diving depth would not be considered a disadvantage. Also, remember the Polish and the Iranian's had problem with their Kilo's in the Shallow waters of the Baltic and the Perisan gulf. Tradationally, Italian boats have been rather small with limited diving depth since they do not operate out of the med sea.

 

[KGB]

Do you think SSK's might ever get cheap enough to be used to smuggle drugs? Years ago a raid on colombia drug dealer revealed a partially completed submarine, presumably for smuggling.

 

[aaaditya]

Do you think SSK's might ever get cheap enough to be used to smuggle drugs? Years ago a raid on colombia drug dealer revealed a partially completed submarine, presumably for smuggling.

well the sri lankan ltte rebels are known to use crude submarines of their own design and manufactured at their allied shipyard in thailand for smuggling and launching of suicide attacks of the srilankan navy.

 

[Dr Phobus]

I am sure its for a ligitmate military usage. There is a long history of sub's 1000 tons and less. Its a real interesting concept this sub and 10 days without surfacing, not to bad. I wonder whats its weapon carrying ability is.

 

[aaaditya]

I am sure its for a ligitmate military usage. There is a long history of sub's 1000 tons and less. Its a real interesting concept this sub and 10 days without surfacing, not to bad. I wonder whats its weapon carrying ability is.

10 days seems quite inadequate ,i wish it was atleast 30 days the amur (designed by rubin) has something around 45 days endurance(without aip).

 

[Whiskyjack]

10 days seems quite inadequate ,i wish it was atleast 30 days the amur (designed by rubin) has something around 45 days endurance(without aip).

Yes but that is not continuous, that is just patrol endurance. 10 days without surfacing or snorkelling would be good for such a small sub, I think even the U212s have only 14 days.

 

[Dr Phobus]

I concur, 10 days without surfacing is a good performance, I would estimate to creeps about at a constant 4-5knots, (5-7mph) 120-144miles a day, for 10 days, silent. Can be rather dangerious. Also, this of the middle eastern sales potentual, UAE, Saudi's, Kuwait. A potent little boats like that in those confinded waters.

 

[PhillTaj]

Interesting article,

So I am not convinced that AIP will be an exclusive technology for too long. The Germans, Swedes, French and Russians (prototype i think) all have such systems, the Japanese are working on a system.

I thought Japan is buying Swedish AIP Systems?

 

[Dr Phobus]

Hello, if you have a sourse please send me a link. The sterling system, was the firist system, used on smaller swedish type boats. German AIP technology it probably the best, the MESA system is starting to be exported. Still, I am surprized the Japanese system, is not being independently developed, Japanese boats are amoung the largest SSK's in the world. :

 

[Max_Headroom]

As far as I know, the latest subs Singapore bought from sweden, will be fitted for- if nor with AIP.

/M

Hello, if you have a sourse please send me a link. The sterling system, was the firist system, used on smaller swedish type boats. German AIP technology it probably the best, the MESA system is starting to be exported. Still, I am surprized the Japanese system, is not being independently developed, Japanese boats are amoung the largest SSK's in the world. :

Japan have bought a number of Sterling engines ;-) from Sweden

 

[aaaditya]

Japan have bought a number of Sterling engines ;-) from Sweden

on what design are the japanese submarines based ?
stirling seems to be noisier than the german fuel cells.if the japanese submarines are based on the german design that i think it would be wiser to use the german fuel cells.

 

[Dr Phobus]

I agree with the above statement, sterling wass the first and makes more noise because if its enclosed combustion design. The AIP system are due to be retrofitted to the Oyashiro classes displace anywhere from 2,450 tons to 3,000 tons about 7 are order or under production. However, max-headroom has better information, however, althought they have bought the system, it does not mean with will use it, it could be for study, japs are big into "improvment", just a thought

:xmas
:xmas

 

[G-Capo]

The capability for this submarine to attack land targets with the Club-S is very impressive.

 

[gf0012-aust]

on what design are the japanese submarines based ?
stirling seems to be noisier than the german fuel cells.if the japanese submarines are based on the german design that i think it would be wiser to use the german fuel cells.

not sure how I missed this post - but better late than never.

the Japanese O''s are based on the last US design. (Barbel?)

there is no relationship between design of a sub and ancilliary components (eg if a german sub, then use a german AIP system).

the japanese have sterling cycle engines - and they've been given access to sterling technology data that australia had.

interestingly enough, AIP was purchased but not fitted to Collins. The AIP engines are still sitting on pallets. AIP was not seen to give demonstrable advantages and left out.

In RIMPAC exercises the ASW hunters have tried to force mistakes by working out duration cycles for conventional subs. HMAS Sheehan and Rankine (eg) have always been able to air up even in a proscribed training box.

 

[aaaditya]

thanks for the info gf,can you post some info,pics or links pertaining to the japanese submarines ,i have always found them fascinating but i find it very difficult to find meaningfull information about them .

also india had recently signed a defence co-operation agreement with japan,what do you think are japan's chances of selling their latest subs to india?

 

[gf0012-aust]

thanks for the info gf,can you post some info,pics or links pertaining to the japanese submarines ,i have always found them fascinating but i find it very difficult to find meaningfull information about them .

The info I have is hard copy only.

what do you think are japan's chances of selling their latest subs to india?

Zero chance.