Doubts About Royal Navy,s Cvf And T 45 Future Ships

contedicavour

New Member
McZosch said:
I don't think, that any RN frigates will be equipped with Tomahawks.
I would rather bet on Storm Shadows. MBDA is in "advanced study phase" of a sea-launched version capable of VLS starts.

To support a 25-escorter-navy having (optimistically) 8 T45, you have to build 17 ships till 2020. The current policy seems in fact to go down to 20 escorters, if only 6 T45s are built even 18.

For the MSVD I think an "cruiser"-version of the Type 45 will do it.

Instead of slepping T23, I would rather go FREMM (i would also subscribe that for F125-class of the German navy) or a smaller version of T45 (around 5500 tonnes). Higher numbers would mean a significantly lower price per unit. Higher numbers mean higher potential for a emergency programme. Maybe, the parliament forces the RN to buy into the LCS-programme instead.
Fully agree with you. FREMM costs per ship 280 million euro (French version) or 350 million euro (Italian version with enhanced AAW). With an increase in orders from the current 27 to 50 (with RN new FFG and German F125) unitary costs would go down to 200 million each approx. My calculation is an extrapolation from the reduction in costs estimated by the Italian Navy by joining forces with the French (27 ships building instead of 10).

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I really doubt we would go for FREMM as our new F125 design, even if it would be logical solution.
Too many jobs here in germany which are related to naval yards.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Waylander said:
I really doubt we would go for FREMM as our new F125 design, even if it would be logical solution.
Too many jobs here in germany which are related to naval yards.
FREMM can be built locally in German shipyards, just like the French build theirs in Lorient and we build ours in Riva Trigoso/genova.
If I'm not wrong, your Bremen FFGs are almost twins of the Dutch Kortenaers, so it wouldn't be the first time an international programme is used as a base for a German FFG programme.

cheers
 

typhoons rule

New Member
overlander said:
i wonder how the RN will be able to build and maintain 2 cvf 65000 tonnes, 40 fighters carriers if they are unable to maintain even 2 smals 20000 tonnes carriers with less manpower, 1000 in invincibles compared with 1500 in the new ???? cvf,s, at present the only operational carrier in the RN is illustrious with ark royal in refit and invincible decommisioned. so this because i don,t believe they will build only 1 or they will make like when the cva 01 cancellation in the sisties, they will build 2 small carriers the same size as invincibles, i don,t believe they will buid 2 new 65000 tonnes carriers until i don,t see they are launched.
i dont think you get it in the cold war they didnt need carriers of that extent leave that to america our main job was for anti submarine warfare around the north sea and atlantic not power projection but the falklands changed that they lacked the power projection to realy go to town on the argies half the harriers had to come all the way from england it wasnt a blue water fleet but now they know the way the worlds changing they need powerprojection not asw ( asmuch)
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I'll try and come up with a general reply, because I was out of the loop of this discussion for so long. That said I'm quite happy to come back to the forum, given that there are more interesting active discussions than before.

I am quite sure that the Royal Navy will have 2 Queen Elizabeth-class carriers sometime next decade, because the Invincible-class simply cannot fill the power-projection role sufficiently any more. Yes, it might be delayed, but reports seem to indicate that preparatory work is being conducted to ensure Portsmouth will be able to accomodate them. Comments about Brown wanting to axe them are rather unfounded at this stage. And the Conservatives (only credibly opposition) are committed as well, having ditched their obsession with slashing spending to fund tax cuts.

There is a chance that Darings #7 & 8 might not be ordered, but I'm still hopeful they will be. There's enough time for the orders to go through.

As to the future surface combatants. The Type-23s will stay in service after a extension service, as already mentioned. I think that's a good thing, because it allows the Royal Navy to put money aside for CVF, the other 2 Darings, etc. The Type-23s are still good ships, so making them last a bit longer will allow us to get a truly excellent replacement, rather than something that's great now but not necessarily as good some years down the line.

I think we'd probably be looking at a modification of the Type-45 design, obviously removing the Aster-30s and more advanced components. That would help British shipbuilding, as well as benefit from the experience gained by building the Darings. Things like a UK version of FREMM probably won't happen, though I wouldn't autmatically object if it was selected.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #126
Uncertain Future For The Royal Navy

read this article of richard beedall www.beedall.com , it,s clear that if finally the cvf,s are built (we will see) it will be with the cost of heavy reductions in the escort force even maybe that in 2020 the escort force could be reduced to only 15 destroyers - frigates, if so Britain would be in the same level of escorts as Spain and Holland and far away from France, Russia and even Italy.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
That is NOT what he said. He said that it is unlikely the RN will be able to get the money for the extra two T-45s at this time because of the CVF project going ahead.

What he went on to say was that our frigate replacements will be put off until the latter part of the next decade, and that he doesn't think replacements will be on a 1-to-1 basis. He said 8-10 assuming the new frigates would be produced in exactly the same proportion as the T-45s were. I doubt that will happen, because the T-45s are so much more capable at AAW than their predecessors were. On the other hand, there is no way you can depreciate your number of ASuW/ASW escorts in such a manner.

The RN's absolute minimum was 6 T-45s (8 preferred) - 8-10 frigates would be far too small a number for them, and they would explain that so even the bean-counters understood.

On a side-note, Richard obviously made a bit of a counting error, because 6 T-45s replacing 8 T-42s is a replacement ratio of 0.75:1. Using that against the current 17 frigates would see 13 replacements (rounded up from 12.75).

Now let's move on to the other navies. The French have only ordered TWO Horizon class frigates - maybe they'll get another two. Let's be really generous and assume they will. Still, that's not nearly enough in my opinion. So maybe the French will have more ASW/ASuW ships, but AAW defence will be much less than ours. If anything went wrong with one of their available Horizons when they needed to deploy a carrier group they'd be stuffed. Plus their PA-2 carrier is looking very shaky at the moment, because the Marine Nationale are demanding too many upgrades. If somehow they got them, that would almost certainly mean cuts in the numbers of FREEMs and maybe even Horizons they'd get.

The idea that the Italians will have more escorts than us is laughable. They will get two Horizons and 10 FREEMS if everything goes to plan. Can you explain to me how 12 is less than 19 (6 T-45s + 13 FSCs)?
 
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contedicavour

New Member
The idea that the Italians will have more escorts than us is laughable. They will get two Horizons and 10 FREEMS if everything goes to plan. Can you explain to me how 12 is less than 19 (6 T-45s + 13 FSCs)?
I doubt the Royal Navy will ever have less escorts than the Italian Navy, though you are underestimating our fleet's total numbers :

Our Navy has 4 DDGs (the 2 Horizon and 2 De la Penne, which will be replaced by AAW versions of the FREMM and probably updated with Asters later on), 12 FFGs being replaced by 10 FREMMs, and the 4 Artigliere FFGs originally built for Iraq. So technically we are and will be at 18 DDG/FFGs.

France is planning to have 24 escorts : 2 Horizons, 17 FREMMs, 5 Lafayette.

cheers
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I doubt the Royal Navy will ever have less escorts than the Italian Navy, though you are underestimating our fleet's total numbers
Sorry about that - I confused the Audace and De la Penne classes for some reason. Also I thought the Artigliere class were corvettes, not frigates, so I didn't count them. I realise I was wrong now.

France is planning to have 24 escorts : 2 Horizons, 17 FREMMs, 5 Lafayette.
France is going to have only 2 Horizons?! Are you sure they won't order another 2? If not, they would be inviting something to go wrong so their carrier group would be badly lacking in AAW protection!!!!!!!
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
France is going to have only 2 Horizons?! Are you sure they won't order another 2? If not, they would be inviting something to go wrong so their carrier group would be badly lacking in AAW protection!!!!!!!
The French are also contemplating making an AAW version of FREMM with Herakles, PAAMS and Aster 30 instead of the two last Horizons.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
dose this increses the vunrablitility of a CdG battal group with so few horions and a lack of effective AAW being made by other vessels in the group.

dose this put france at disavantage in comparison to other simlar nation as they won't always have a horizion avalible. and haven't got anything eles with a long enough range to cover the carrier they got the old DDG the laffayects and the FREEMMs if the Horizons are unavalible. none of the other ships at the time have a satifactory range.

unlike the MN which have there FREEMMs with aster 30 which allows them to use a BG with out horizons and still have decent air coverage and the spanish who have many F100s giveing them ageis coverage any day of the week it is only the french who don't seem to have though though their plan
 

contedicavour

New Member
They will probably still have Aster 15 and 76mm OTO's....
FREMM and probably one day also the Lafayette will have aster 15, yes... with a range of 30km and a speed of mach 4, so that's quite an AAW potential. When you think that yesterday's DDGs had SM-1 with a single launcher and a range of 46km...

The Royal Navy will have the best medium/long range AAW protection of Europe with their 6 darings, but France and Italy should anyway end up having a better AAW than today.

cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
still don't have the range of SM-1 though all though this is made up in many other areas.
conti de cavor how do you think spain and italy navys compare with each other and how could they each be inproved
 
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