Brunei Corvettes

[Subangite]

well what i want to say here is about funding.
ngpv problem cost a lot to rmn's budget n for future order of f2000 batch 2 it will also cost a lot of money due to local building n tot.
i don't think our defence budget is high right.

I thought purchases are made in batches because of the small defence allocation in the budget. I thought procurement was spread over the 5 year "Malaysia plans".

dear arkhan,
the recent crisis is about sea teritorial dispute between malaysia n indonesia in sabah or kalimantan .well its about oil i think.
however it was solved through diplomacy.

I think you're talking about the maritime boundary in the hydrocarbon-rich Celebes Sea, this still is in dispute. What was resolved "diplomatically" was the status of Ligitan and Sipadan islands which ICJ arbitration awarded them to Malaysia. Indonesia has said it would respect the courts ruling.

The seas around Sipadan and Ligitan are still as much disputed as they are valuable, due to the prospects of oil deposits, culminating in "hostile confrontations" in March 2005 over concessions to the Ambalat oil block.

Indonesia awarded concessions of the oil block to one company, whilst Malaysia awarded concessions of the same block to another company, this over the same peice of seabed real estate, so naturaly some sort of skirmish occured. I don't think the matter has been resolved, though the chances of an escalation or major naval conflict is very unlikely.

 

[f2000]

I thought purchases are made in batches because of the small defence allocation in the budget. I thought procurement was spread over the 5 year "Malaysia plans".



I think you're talking about the maritime boundary in the hydrocarbon-rich Celebes Sea, this still is in dispute. What was resolved "diplomatically" was the status of Ligitan and Sipadan islands which ICJ arbitration awarded them to Malaysia. Indonesia has said it would respect the courts ruling.

The seas around Sipadan and Ligitan are still as much disputed as they are valuable, due to the prospects of oil deposits, culminating in "hostile confrontations" in March 2005 over concessions to the Ambalat oil block.

Indonesia awarded concessions of the oil block to one company, whilst Malaysia awarded concessions of the same block to another company, this over the same peice of seabed real estate, so naturaly some sort of skirmish occured. I don't think the matter has been resolved, though the chances of an escalation or major naval conflict is very unlikely.

what i mean here is not the disputed oil block n also not sipadan.
it is the action by both rmn n tni-al that maybe can cause serious conflict had been eased by diplomacy.hope u understand

 

[contedicavour]

one thing that still bugs me, why is these ships called OPV's, judging by their armerment and sensors, i think they are either light frigates or corvette standards.

Fully agree with you. These ships are light FFGs or FFG(L). I've never seen OPVs with SAMs and SSMs
These ships would be ideal to constitute a light FFG squadron with the Lekius, though Malaysia would also need to buy a few more helicopters to equip them.

cheers

 

[renjer]

well the RMN need more capital ship like yesterday not tomorrow. if you contruct the ship in country, how long would it take to make them online? at least 3 years. buying the Nakhoda class will bring the much needed numbers in the capital ships. recent crisis shows that RMN don't have the numbers for capital ships.

Hello again, dreamwarrior73. Subangnite has already touched on the issues of what is the long-term goal as well as that of funding. I would like to explore the crisis aspect of our discussion.

So, perhaps you could be more specific about these recent crisis(es)? If you are referring to the showdown with the Indonesian over Ambalat, with the Bruneian over Louisa Reef or with the Singaporean over Pulau Putih you will have noted that Malaysia's navy was neither outgunned nor outnumbered in any of these encounters.

Non-escalation and the containment of each showdown to its immediate vicinity was a deliberate policy choice made to allow room to manuver diplomatically. The principle of proportionality, if you will. The military option being only one tool (and hopefully the last) that the GOM would exercise within the context of Malaysia's Total Defence Policy.

I do agree that this might not be the case going forward but this window of vulnerability that you allude to will certainly not occur within "the next 3 years". There would be time to build additional ships in the country. What is this immediate threat that should compel Malaysia to divert limited funding away from achieving self-sufficiency in naval shipbuilding?

Agi Idup, Agi Ngeleban.

renjer

 

[renjer]

I agree, what is more important getting the ships or getting the local industry involvement?

Hi, Whiskyjack. I think both are equally important. In this case, the two are not exclusive choices.

On the first matter, we are already getting ships. The OPV project in Lumut is still on. It's delayed but it's still on. On the second matter, local industry involvement for Malaysia means transfer of technology more than jobs. (I might have misunderstood. I am sorry if I have.)

 

[Subangite]

what i mean here is not the disputed oil block n also not sipadan.
it is the action by both rmn n tni-al that maybe can cause serious conflict had been eased by diplomacy.hope u understand

I understand but prehaps only dreamwarrior can clarify what he meant by "recent crisis shows that RMN don't have the numbers for capital ships." Exactly what Renjer purposed, so that we can clear the air.

The RMN has had quite a few with neighbouring navies as has been already pointed out by Renjer. There was an incident with Indonesia over Ambalat which saw a stand off between the TNI-AL and the RMN, also involved the TNI-AU patroling the area.

There was an engagement with Brunei over Louisa Reef which saw the RMN and the RBN apparently in bruneian reports of the incident, RMAF fighters were also called in from Labuan.

There was the incident the RMN and the RSN over Pedra Branca, where both countries placed vessels in the vicinity. A Singapore navy ship collided with a container ship off the island of Pedra Branca claiming the lives of a few naval officers.

In all cases, cooler heads have prevailed, if anything I don't think the term "conflict" aptly describes the situation.

 

[arkhan]

thanks for answering

thanks f2000 and subangite for the answers. for me if it is 'skirmishes' between malaysia and indonesia we dont have to worry much. our present leaders will not let war between our country to happen. what i worry much is conflict for spratly island in the future.

 

[bravotwozero]

hi........i think what dream warrior mean is the AMBALAT case. but if its true, the statement which malaysia dont have enough capital assets is wrong RMN does have a lot of capital ship on CAT 1 operational status uring that crisis.

 

[Candu Hill]

i do agree if RMN purchase these ships to complement our frigates...

as u can see...most of our PC and 2 opvs are already been handed to the Malaysian Coast Guard....so clearly....RMN is ill equip(in numbers)....granted the NGPV KD Kedah is fully online and KD Pahang is coming in few months....but do u think is enough?.....the other 4 will only be completed in the next 3 years....and when does our next Frigate squadron coming?...

so the Nakhoda class will do just fine....with big discount of cause.

 

[dreamwarrior73]

hi........i think what dream warrior mean is the AMBALAT case. but if its true, the statement which malaysia dont have enough capital assets is wrong RMN does have a lot of capital ship on CAT 1 operational status uring that crisis.

in RMN context it is appropriate to refer combat ships of the size corvette and above as capital ships. in this case, the Lekiu class frigates, Kasturi class corvette and Laksamana class corvette are the only capital ships in the RMN inventory.

so the question is, do you know where were the ships mentioned above during the Ambalat?

if you know the answer, then you why i said again and again RMN lacked capital ships.

don't talk about gunboat diplomacy. gunboat diplomacy my ar**! :flame

i rest my case.

 

[renjer]

I know I should just walk away but ...

in RMN context it is appropriate to refer combat ships of the size corvette and above as capital ships. in this case, the Lekiu class frigates, Kasturi class corvette and Laksamana class corvette are the only capital ships in the RMN inventory.

so the question is, do you know where were the ships mentioned above during the Ambalat?

The question should be: Does the RMN have adequate capital ships at present? The answer is, yes, as evident by the fact that all the countries that Malaysia faced agreed to a non-military settlement. If they had the military advantage they would have pressed the issue there and then.

There is no need to buy the Nakhodas. We have time to build our own capital ships. This will benefit our country more.

don't talk ...

Why not? This is the whole purpose of this forum. Don't be offended if others don't agree with your point of view. It doesn't mean that yours is wrong. It may be the case but not necessarily so. And you also shouldn't be offended if others introduce a new and different perspective. It's an excellent way to learn about new things.

gunboat diplomacy my ar**!

Why would you want anyone to do that to you?

 

[dreamwarrior73]

1. for the sake of the argument, please answer this question. where were RMN capital ships during Ambalat?

2. Both TNI-AL and RMN were not practising gun boat diplomacy during Ambalat. TNI-AL deployed at least one of their capital ships there. RMN were unable to deploy their capital ships there. why? the answer is the same as the answer for question no. 1.

until somebody can answer the question no. 1. then i rest my case.

 

[caksz]

malaysia policy is always diplomacy over actions , why bother to deploy a huge asset into a cause that more unlikely won't happen anything

Don't bother to buy the nakhodas , install ASM and SAM on the OPV is a better option

 

[contedicavour]

malaysia policy is always diplomacy over actions , why bother to deploy a huge asset into a cause that more unlikely won't happen anything

Don't bother to buy the nakhodas , install ASM and SAM on the OPV is a better option

Hmmm I agree... the MEKO-100 are way too expensive to be used only as gun OPVs... completing their armament should be n°1 priority.

cheers

 

[Ding]

Hmmm I agree... the MEKO-100 are way too expensive to be used only as gun OPVs... completing their armament should be n°1 priority.

cheers

exactly...that's what i've been saying all this while....albeit in a different thread. Why waste the platform for a gun only combatant or OPV? a corvette can still do it's patroling duties plus can be an asset in major naval engagement.

 

[Sea Toby]

If you want a frigate, a warship that can go fast and run for days without running out of fuel, buy a frigate. If you want a fishery protection patrol vessel to spend weeks patrolling, buy an OPV. If you wish to buy a warship that can go fast and run for only a day or two before refueling, buy a corvette. Its that simple.

There are many who prefer a corvette for warship duties, and there are many who prefer an OPV for patrol duties.

Unfortunately, there are some who wish to use an OPV as a warship, or use a corvette as a patrol ship. Corvettes cost at least twice as much as an OPV, and are as much an overkill for patrol as a frigate.

 

[contedicavour]

If you want a frigate, a warship that can go fast and run for days without running out of fuel, buy a frigate. If you want a fishery protection patrol vessel to spend weeks patrolling, buy an OPV. If you wish to buy a warship that can go fast and run for only a day or two before refueling, buy a corvette. Its that simple.

There are many who prefer a corvette for warship duties, and there are many who prefer an OPV for patrol duties.

Unfortunately, there are some who wish to use an OPV as a warship, or use a corvette as a patrol ship. Corvettes cost at least twice as much as an OPV, and are as much an overkill for patrol as a frigate.

I agree. The current Meko100 is halfway between a full-blown FFG and a OPV. Except that with current armament it's an extremely expensive... OPV.
Besides, if only 4 are to be built, instead of the original plan for up to approx 20, then it would have been better (less maintenance costs) to order more British Lekiu-type ships.
cheers

 

[caksz]

2 opv is officially operational, another 1 will be commissioned in a few months and the others 3 still being built ... the first six is a pioneer project, the result will be evaluate before a new ship will be built

Is it true that the RBN don’t have manpower and place to supports and maintenance of the vessels is the reasons of the delay and what with the two submarines that sitting idle in the Lumut naval base?

 

[dreamwarrior73]

malaysia policy is always diplomacy over actions , why bother to deploy a huge asset into a cause that more unlikely won't happen anything

Don't bother to buy the nakhodas , install ASM and SAM on the OPV is a better option

i would buy the Nakhoda class if they are on sale at bargain price.

and i would also armed the PV to teeth with SSM and SAM.

and i would buy additional F2000 frigates.

 

[dreamwarrior73]

2 opv is officially operational, another 1 will be commissioned in a few months and the another 3 still being built ... the first six is a pioneer project, the result will be evaluate before a new ship will be built

Is it true that the RBN don’t have manpower and place to supports and maintenance of the vessels is the reasons of the delay and what with the two submarines that sitting idle in the Lumut naval base?

Malaysian Government is going to place an order for batch 2 of the PV project with the Naval Dockyard sometime maybe end of 2007 or early 2008. the order is up to six ships.

those ex-Dutch submarines are no more there. they have been scrapped.