Serbian Kotor-Class, Sava-Class, Heroj-Class, Mala-Class...

scg_af

New Member
I have a few questions about Serbia & Montenegro's Naval inventory...


Does Serbia & Montenegro still have Kotor-Class frigates? After the 1999 war, S & M had 4 of these, but I don't know if there still in service today. None that I know of had been deployed in the war.

Also, does anyone know if Serbia & Montenegro still has Sava-Class, Heroj-Class, and Mala-Class subs?

Thanks in advance.
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Only two Kotor frigates class were built both are in service.

Two Russian-built Koni class frigates stricken 2002.

The Sava class sub is non-operational.

The three Heroj class subs were stricken by 1995.

Of the six Una class midget subs three are non-operational, two have been stricken and one is in the Croatian navy.

Of the four Mala class swimmer delivery vehicles two are in service and the other two are in the Croatian navy. Sweden, Russia and Libya also acquired examples of these vehicles.

Note: All of the above vessels with the exception of the Russian-built Koni class frigates were built in Croatia.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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scg_af

New Member
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Thank you very much for that info!



There has been some rumors that the Serbian navy is considering to buy Tarantul-Class frigs. Any info to back this up? Thanks in advance.
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Have heard it but no confirmation. The Russians have many used of this class and there has been talk of resuming new construction. As these two nations are quite close it would be quite easy to see this happen.
 

Gollevainen

the corporal
Verified Defense Pro
In Yugoslavia, which Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovia, Slovenian and Makedonia formely belonged..
 

contedicavour

New Member
Gollevainen said:
In Yugoslavia, which Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovia, Slovenian and Makedonia formely belonged..
In Croatia to be more accurate. Former Yugoslavia's main shipyard was Split, which is now in Croatia.
 

contedicavour

New Member
rickusn said:
Have heard it but no confirmation. The Russians have many used of this class and there has been talk of resuming new construction. As these two nations are quite close it would be quite easy to see this happen.
Now that Serbia isn't with Montenegro anymore, it doesn't need Tarantuls (it will need more river patrol crafts however). Montenegro most probably doesn't have funding to buy even second-hand Tarantuls.
I think it more likely that smaller non-missile patrol crafts will be procured to limit illegal activities (human, drugs, and weapons trafficking). Croatia might build some more Mirna class FACs for its new neighbor. Or we can supply Bigliani class FACs (30 metre, 42 knots, armed with 30-mm Breda automatic gun), which would be perfectly interoperable with our Navy/Guardia di Finanza/Coast Guard.

cheers
 

Ragusian

New Member
Now that Serbia isn't with Montenegro anymore, it doesn't need Tarantuls (it will need more river patrol crafts however). Montenegro most probably doesn't have funding to buy even second-hand Tarantuls.
I think it more likely that smaller non-missile patrol crafts will be procured to limit illegal activities (human, drugs, and weapons trafficking). Croatia might build some more Mirna class FACs for its new neighbor. Or we can supply Bigliani class FACs (30 metre, 42 knots, armed with 30-mm Breda automatic gun), which would be perfectly interoperable with our Navy/Guardia di Finanza/Coast Guard.
There are talks now that 2 Kotor class missile frigates may be given/sold to croatia as part of war reparation.
Montenegro plans to save much of its fleet, atleast some of the bigger ships, as they want to participate actively in patrol duties and NATO excersises in the Adriatic...
I doubt we'll see some new ships in montenegro's nevy anytime soon...
Mirnas are obsolete...We build better stuff now, like this...
 

contedicavour

New Member
Ragusian said:
There are talks now that 2 Kotor class missile frigates may be given/sold to croatia as part of war reparation.
Montenegro plans to save much of its fleet, atleast some of the bigger ships, as they want to participate actively in patrol duties and NATO excersises in the Adriatic...
I doubt we'll see some new ships in montenegro's nevy anytime soon...
Mirnas are obsolete...We build better stuff now, like this...
I didn't know about this potential transfer of the Kotors ! It would be good news for the Croatian Navy, especially if you install RBS15 (or Harpoon or Teseo 2B, etc) instead of the obsolete Styx.
Mirnas were somewhat bigger than the patrol ship in your thumbnail, or am I wrong ? could you tell us more about the patrol ships proposed by Croatian shipyards ?

cheers
 

Ragusian

New Member
I didn't know about this potential transfer of the Kotors ! It would be good news for the Croatian Navy, especially if you install RBS15 (or Harpoon or Teseo 2B, etc) instead of the obsolete Styx.
Mirnas were somewhat bigger than the patrol ship in your thumbnail, or am I wrong ? could you tell us more about the patrol ships proposed by Croatian shipyards ?

cheers
Well, it's a new option, it might happen...If it does, they will serve as OPVs, so missiles and much of the armament would go off, and superstructure would be reconstructed(to accomodate a helo-pad, but not a hangar).
OPVs are now the top priority for us, since we have none, and alot of km2 to cover..

This is a new project, called PV-30LS, and for now, two have been built, but those are sold to Lybia(I think they are just undergoing sea trials)
It's a 30 metres long patrol boat, of reduced radar signature(by 70%). Max speed is 33 knots, sustained speed at sea state 5 is 26 knots. Hull is made of steel, superstructure of composites and aluminium. Gun is optional.
Mirna's are pretty big, but crapmed and thirsty. They will be phased out from our navy and replaced by a newer, more capable and economical solution(possibly this ship, but few others are under review too).
Missile gunships, however, will be modernized with a new AAW system, and will continue to serve in our navy(I'm against this solution), untill replaced by a larger corvette design, currently reviewed(no pictures, just some information...around +1000 tones, similar to MEKOs A100)
 

Jtimes2

New Member
The two "Koni III"s (with the rearward-firing Styx) have been in mothballs for years, supposedly Sri Lanka is investigating buying them at a bargain basement price.

Egypt is negotiating to buy the two Kotors, along with the entire remaining inventory of Osas and the engines from the decommissioned Shershens. (they use the same diesels).

The three Heroj class subs have been out of service for a decade. One was split open for a refit that was never completed, the other two are rusting pierside.

The two Savas are operational; only one is kept going at a time however; the other one providing spares and enough men to form one complete crew.

The entire navy is going to be liquidated due to the Montenegro vote. Serbia will keep some small craft as riverine assets. Montenegro stated it does not want a navy and plans on keeping only the sail training tallship and some support assets like LCU's, tugs, etc. At the end of June, they opened tenders on selling off the real estate of the naval bases to Italian tourism developers. They also opened talks on acquiring new-build coastal patrol boats of Western (likely Italian) origin. Additionally; they passed a law allowing dual-citizenship for their officer corps, so Serbian (most of the sailors are from Serbia proper) officers could continue their careers if they so wished.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Ragusian said:
Well, it's a new option, it might happen...If it does, they will serve as OPVs, so missiles and much of the armament would go off, and superstructure would be reconstructed(to accomodate a helo-pad, but not a hangar).
OPVs are now the top priority for us, since we have none, and alot of km2 to cover..

This is a new project, called PV-30LS, and for now, two have been built, but those are sold to Lybia(I think they are just undergoing sea trials)
It's a 30 metres long patrol boat, of reduced radar signature(by 70%). Max speed is 33 knots, sustained speed at sea state 5 is 26 knots. Hull is made of steel, superstructure of composites and aluminium. Gun is optional.
Mirna's are pretty big, but crapmed and thirsty. They will be phased out from our navy and replaced by a newer, more capable and economical solution(possibly this ship, but few others are under review too).
Missile gunships, however, will be modernized with a new AAW system, and will continue to serve in our navy(I'm against this solution), untill replaced by a larger corvette design, currently reviewed(no pictures, just some information...around +1000 tones, similar to MEKOs A100)
Very interesting thanks ! Why are you against preserving your small missile corvettes ? The 2 Kralj Kresimir are very well armed and fast. The remaining Koncar (Sibenik if I recall well) is also armed with RBS-15...
Regarding OPVs, what sort of size and equipment would the Hrvatska Mornarica be interested in, if the Kotors were to be sold to another country ?

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
Jtimes2 said:
The two "Koni III"s (with the rearward-firing Styx) have been in mothballs for years, supposedly Sri Lanka is investigating buying them at a bargain basement price.

Egypt is negotiating to buy the two Kotors, along with the entire remaining inventory of Osas and the engines from the decommissioned Shershens. (they use the same diesels).

The three Heroj class subs have been out of service for a decade. One was split open for a refit that was never completed, the other two are rusting pierside.

The two Savas are operational; only one is kept going at a time however; the other one providing spares and enough men to form one complete crew.

The entire navy is going to be liquidated due to the Montenegro vote. Serbia will keep some small craft as riverine assets. Montenegro stated it does not want a navy and plans on keeping only the sail training tallship and some support assets like LCU's, tugs, etc. At the end of June, they opened tenders on selling off the real estate of the naval bases to Italian tourism developers. They also opened talks on acquiring new-build coastal patrol boats of Western (likely Italian) origin. Additionally; they passed a law allowing dual-citizenship for their officer corps, so Serbian (most of the sailors are from Serbia proper) officers could continue their careers if they so wished.
Apparently in this thread there are different sources regarding the operational status of the Savas. My understanding is - as you say - that at least one is still operational. Which is your source ? Jane's, Combat Fleets, Weyers, other ?
On the Egyptian interest, I fully understand the logic behind the Osas and Shershen spare parts, though I don't get why they should be interested by the Kotors. What is your opinion on this ?
Last but not least, what about the 5 remaining Koncars ?

cheers
 

Ragusian

New Member
ery interesting thanks ! Why are you against preserving your small missile corvettes ? The 2 Kralj Kresimir are very well armed and fast. The remaining Koncar (Sibenik if I recall well) is also armed with RBS-15...
Regarding OPVs, what sort of size and equipment would the Hrvatska Mornarica be interested in, if the Kotors were to be sold to another country ?

cheers
Well, our missile gunboats are due for engines replacement... They are small, expensive to operate, and I belive that FACms are rally obsolete. How would they survive today's modern warfare?
I would be happier if they would be replaced by a more modern and capable design. Now it looks they are going to stay in active service atleast untill 2015.

As for OPVs...around 800-1000 tonnes...
 

contedicavour

New Member
Ragusian said:
Well, our missile gunboats are due for engines replacement... They are small, expensive to operate, and I belive that FACms are rally obsolete. How would they survive today's modern warfare?
I would be happier if they would be replaced by a more modern and capable design. Now it looks they are going to stay in active service atleast untill 2015.

As for OPVs...around 800-1000 tonnes...
Well your missile gunboats (at least the 2 Kraljs) are perfect for ASUW and can hide easily along the Dalmatian coast. They would just need some short range SAMs (Mistrals or Stingers) and some air cover in case of real conflict.
It is true however that I wouldn't see them deploy in overseas missions as they are today, but that's not necessarily a priority for the moment.
Re the OPVs, for 1000 tonnes it will be hard to have anything better than a 60-65 metre platform with no helos and probably no space for serious VLS SAMs. I'd go for 1700 ton minimum, 90 metre, with space for SSM and SAMs and a helo pad aft.

cheers
 

mic of orion

New Member
Well your missile gunboats (at least the 2 Kraljs) are perfect for ASUW and can hide easily along the Dalmatian coast. They would just need some short range SAMs (Mistrals or Stingers) and some air cover in case of real conflict.
It is true however that I wouldn't see them deploy in overseas missions as they are today, but that's not necessarily a priority for the moment.
Re the OPVs, for 1000 tonnes it will be hard to have anything better than a 60-65 metre platform with no helos and probably no space for serious VLS SAMs. I'd go for 1700 ton minimum, 90 metre, with space for SSM and SAMs and a helo pad aft.

cheers
My very first post in this forum :)

Croatia plans to get some larger ships, OPV's (Veliki Ophodni Brod) they are designed and do look awesome, but are also quite well armed for ships that will perform only what I might immagine coastal guard duties.

From preliminary design I can tell you ships are 80-85m long, have helo deck for 10 ton helicopter.

Armaments consist of Bofors 57mm cannon, 2x12.7mm MG's, 2x20mm auto cannon, 1x 21 cell RAM system at the top of the Hangar.

2 are planed by 2012, and 2 more by 2015, cost per ship about 80 million euro.

2 King class boats will remain in service for very long time, 2020 and even after, Koncar class might do 2015 before it is retired.

There are plans to replace 2 King class with Corvettes in 2020 - most likley 100m warships, not sure how many, (most likley 4). Croatia has plans to increase its navy to 5500 personal sometimes by 2020. Army will remain at 10500, air force at 3200 personal and navy might get bust from 2500 personal to 5500 personal by 2020, all depends on what role Croatia will play with in NATO.

Defense white paper which calls for small armed forces envisages total of 32000 military personal with in armed fores of these 10 000 are reserves or volunteers.

Future ORBAT for army already exist, and finances what and where money is needed, how much, who and what. What needs to be replaced and what needs to stay, and some major upgrades are needed for army which is a priority now, This includes upgrade of M80 IFV's and M84 tanks, procurement of new APC's. Problem is, Croatia is in election year, spendings on social programs has increased at the expense of military spendings, therefore any programs that have been agreed on in principle, upgrade of certain vehicles, procurement of new APC's and even upgrade to Air force and Navyt are halt until new government is in the office. It looks most likley now that new Government will be coalition of SDP and HNS/LS and other smaller parties.

If coalition wins as it looks now, than we'll have even slower process of decision making, SDP is well known for good social spendings, they'll honor defense requirements I am sure of it, question is, will they improve on it. SDP initiated NATO and EU processes way back in 2001, I am sure they'll honor and perhaps improve on the defense package.

I know that SDP will push for more NATO/UN lead peacekeeping ops, They see Croatia as Finland and Sweden 10 years down when it comes to its military obligations.

If Croatian involvement in Middle East increases and I am sure it will, Lebanon is now a hot topic at the UN security council, I see no other way but for Croatia to order several large corvettes and by 2020, I'd agree at least 2 larger frigates, something over 4000 ton, perhaps even 5000, time will tell.

Croatian economy has steady annual growth of 4-5% and at this rate it will double by 2015, with military spendings which will hit 2% by than, more money will be available for such extravagant programs.

As to submarines, sorry to say, Croatia will no longer utilize Submarine force, they'll use ASW helicopters for this purpose only. submarines are to expensive and Adriatic sea is very shallow sea, putting a submarine in to it, will only encourage dolphins to take a piss at it lol :D.
 

Ragusian

New Member
From preliminary design I can tell you ships are 80-85m long, have helo deck for 10 ton helicopter.

Armaments consist of Bofors 57mm cannon, 2x12.7mm MG's, 2x20mm auto cannon, 1x 21 cell RAM system at the top of the Hangar.

2 are planed by 2012, and 2 more by 2015, cost per ship about 80 million euro.
Where did you get this info?
Oh, and BTW, the current plan is to get all of the four new corvettes in a much shorter time. The first two should enter construction later this year.

2 King class boats will remain in service for very long time, 2020 and even after, Koncar class might do 2015 before it is retired.
I'm getting very sick:mad: :( :shudder :unknown

There are plans to replace 2 King class with Corvettes in 2020 - most likley 100m warships, not sure how many, (most likley 4). Croatia has plans to increase its navy to 5500 personal sometimes by 2020. Army will remain at 10500, air force at 3200 personal and navy might get bust from 2500 personal to 5500 personal by 2020, all depends on what role Croatia will play with in NATO.
Again, where did you get this info from? The current plan is somewhere around 1650 personnel in the navy(probably not counting beaurocrats).
And what about those largere corvettes? I haven't heard of that either(Although it was fairly logical something would have to be built by then)

As to submarines, sorry to say, Croatia will no longer utilize Submarine force, they'll use ASW helicopters for this purpose only. submarines are to expensive and Adriatic sea is very shallow sea, putting a submarine in to it, will only encourage dolphins to take a piss at it lol
That's a pisspour argument... The North Sea and the Baltic are more shallow than the adriatic, and yet, some nations menage very well with even bigger submarines then ours.

Oh, a little question for the moderators... Could we displace these two posts to either a new subject called croatian navy or to the topic Croatian military modernization in General military section, since they have little connection with the original topic of the thread? Thanks in advance
 

mic of orion

New Member
Where did you get this info?
Oh, and BTW, the current plan is to get all of the four new corvettes in a much shorter time. The first two should enter construction later this year.



I'm getting very sick:mad: :( :shudder :unknown



Again, where did you get this info from? The current plan is somewhere around 1650 personnel in the navy(probably not counting beaurocrats).
And what about those largere corvettes? I haven't heard of that either(Although it was fairly logical something would have to be built by then)



That's a pisspour argument... The North Sea and the Baltic are more shallow than the adriatic, and yet, some nations menage very well with even bigger submarines then ours.

Oh, a little question for the moderators... Could we displace these two posts to either a new subject called croatian navy or to the topic Croatian military modernization in General military section, since they have little connection with the original topic of the thread? Thanks in advance
all is in defense white paper, and I asked MOD in Zagreb to confirm the data for Wiki project.

BTW naval ship company is 1850 men right now, I think Marines are about 300-400 and HQ takes the rest - total 2500 men.

But this will increase once new ships enter service, not sure how fast, but Plan under Defense white paper calls for 2500 strong Navy, 3200 strong Air force and 10500 strong Army (all active) reserve status some 10200 personal of which 2200 are full time volunteers.

Currently army is at 16800 personal, navy at 2700 and Air force at 2800.

HQ and civilians account for about 9200 personal and this is where major cuts will be made, number of civilians will be reduced to 2000 at most, number of military personal at most 5000 including special MOD units, Presidential Guard and Zrinski Battalion.

With the reserves, Army, Navy and Air force and HQ and logistics, by 2010 Croatia will field about 32500 personal. currently this number is around 50 000.

Ups, sorry, just saw your question about Corvettes, I saw the design, it is not spectacular design, it is basic stealth design, with not best sensor suite, I'd say basic but than these are OPV's not Battlestar Galactica if you get me, lol.


Plan calls for basic unit and cost of all 4 units was estimated at 400 million euro, but this was for 4 French designed Gowind 200, Croatian proposal is only 50 million euro, but, additional weapons systems would add additional 30 million to the final cost.

I'd still prefer Gowid Design, it is bigger than Croatian design by full 20m and has far superior sensor suite and carries more weapons load, it can carry 8SSM, 21Cell RAM System, 24 Cell Aster 15 or 30 SAM system, 2 20mm Auto cannon on sides of the hangar, 2x12.7mm MG's on port side and 2 torpedo tubes for ASW as well as ASW helicopter and crew of 70 + spare bunks for additional 30 personal.

And these ships can be deployed to places like Lebanon to patrol along the coast. I'd go for this solution, 4 Gowind corvettes from France and 4 OPV's from local shipyards, but all 8 ships to be build in Croatia.

BTW I like king class gun boats they are nice, and very capable of defending the coastline, well armed and capable warships, put this way many navies would be very happy to have these 2 ships in there arsenal, I can name quite a few.
 
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