Counter-Insurgency Warfare

Status
Not open for further replies.

driftder

New Member
I would like to ask this question. How relevant and effective are the counter-insurgency war tactics used in Iraq by the USA? I ask b3cause I see some counter productive effects. Any comments would be welcome, but please lets keep it professional. No personal attacks or national chest thumping, thanks :)
 

viper007

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In CIW, the enemy is always at an advantage coz ur playing to his terms. In Iraq, they are even using tactics like sniping from windows - but not by leaning against them, they stand really back, and cannot be seen from the ground.

Iraqis decide when to attack and when to withdraw, so its their deal.

VIPER
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
viper007 said:
In CIW, the enemy is always at an advantage coz ur playing to his terms.VIPER
Not necessarily, The British experience in Malaya and Borneo during Konfrontassi was somewhat more positive.
 

viper007

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well yes, but it was a general statement about what happens in my country - India. The army is on its toes, becoz they don't where the guys are, what they are doing. They want to attack where they want to, if the intel is poor, the army gets screwed.

And in my opinion, the north-east guys are better trained, and can create havoc if in large numbers.
 

driftder

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
gf0012-aust said:
viper007 said:
In CIW, the enemy is always at an advantage coz ur playing to his terms.VIPER
Not necessarily, The British experience in Malaya and Borneo during Konfrontassi was somewhat more positive.
True - the British exprience in Malaya, Aden, Ireland etc are good points of how to contain a insurgency. Which makes me wonder if the USA are using the right tactics. Methinks they do rely too much on bullets and missiles ie firepower to settle the issue.

I believe the main thing being overlooked is the end result - which is to defeat any insurgency, stability must be introduced. Am I wrong to say that?

Incidentally, Malaya was one of the few insurgencies that was defeated. As for the Indonesian Konfrontasi, its more like an attempt to conduct war by proxy or guerilla war to destabilise the then Malayan government.
 

driftder

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
viper007 said:
Well yes, but it was a general statement about what happens in my country - India. The army is on its toes, becoz they don't where the guys are, what they are doing. They want to attack where they want to, if the intel is poor, the army gets screwed.

And in my opinion, the north-east guys are better trained, and can create havoc if in large numbers.
Ah in what sense? You have to give more details than that, not just sprout your own opinions. Is there any documentary proof to what you stated? Indian intelligence is not that rotted as you believe.

As for the "north-east guys", who are you referring to? The Maoist insurgents in Nagaland?
 

viper007

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I know guys working there, so i have some info of how things go about there. My father himself has served there. The army intel network isn't poor, but its not difficult to breach either. Recently they found a new way of bombing - they pick up some nice looking 13 yr old kids and send them to plant explosives. The kid himslef does not know what he is doing. In such cases, if the intel is poor, these plans are hard to trace.

About the North Eastern insurgents, i am talking of an organization by the name NSC (i think), there was a documentry on Indian channels about how these guys are fortifying their positions using the peace-process as a shield. They train well, they are disciplined, they have excellent leadership and they are well equipped. They have modified M-16s, Ak-47/56 and other such weapons.

I think u would like to read some articles about Indian Special Forces and CIJWS.


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article08.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/1970s/Wullar.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article15.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Mortal.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article12.html

VIPER
 

driftder

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
viper007 said:
I know guys working there, so i have some info of how things go about there. My father himself has served there. The army intel network isn't poor, but its not difficult to breach either. Recently they found a new way of bombing - they pick up some nice looking 13 yr old kids and send them to plant explosives. The kid himslef does not know what he is doing. In such cases, if the intel is poor, these plans are hard to trace.

About the North Eastern insurgents, i am talking of an organization by the name NSC (i think), there was a documentry on Indian channels about how these guys are fortifying their positions using the peace-process as a shield. They train well, they are disciplined, they have excellent leadership and they are well equipped. They have modified M-16s, Ak-47/56 and other such weapons.

I think u would like to read some articles about Indian Special Forces and CIJWS.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article08.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/1970s/Wullar.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article15.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Mortal.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article12.html

VIPER
Ahh, I believe you got it mixed up. My focus is on the ways to contain and control a insurgency type conflaguration, and not so much on special forces tactics and weapons etc.

This thread was started as I have observed that the US-led forces are not having much success in their attempts to control the Iraqi insurgency. However I have notice relative calm with lesser levels of violence in the Iraqi southern regions where its being controlled by the British. Therefore I wonder if there is a change in tactics, what would be the result? Before we can arrive at the result, we need define the tactics needed to quell a insurgency and no, its not just the military means alone.

I hope that clarifys the thread's purpose and that more response with suggestions, preferably personal experiences will lead to a more fruitful discussion, with perhaps the feedback being helpful to any counter-insurgency force ie a sorta private netizen think tank.
 

sa_bushwar

New Member
The day Bush declared the war over, I told a friend that the war for the USA in Iraq is only starting now...The USA tactics are wrong: you cannot win a counter insurgency war by just throwing money, material and men at it - Vietnam!!!. Further, their Intel is poor, and they do not have sufficient first-hand information to stop the bombings etc. Again, money and technology does not provide the complete answer to obtain Intelligence. You have to gather in with covert forward observation agents, physical patrols, and infiltrating the enemy ranks to obtain 1st-hand information; while simulatiuosly earn the respect of the local population.

These lessons were learnt in South Africa more than a century ago, when in the Anglo Boer War (1899-1902), the mighty British Empire attacked the 2 Boer republics of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, having 450 000! men in the field by war's end, -against about 50 000 Boers. The British also declared the war over at the end of the conventional phase, but despite being outnumbered 10:1, and their farms and houses being burnt down, women and children dying in Concentration Camps; the Boers kept the Empire busy for another 2 years in one of the most costly wars for the Empire. (My grandfather fought in the Boer war and his house was also burned down as part of the policy of "scorched earth".)

In more recent history, the former SADF fought a 23 year Counter Insurgeny war in Namibia and Angola, in what became known as the South African Bushwar (1966-1989). The former SADF managed to win this was as is evident by the number of incidents (mines, bombings, attacks, etc.) as illustrated on the webpage: http://www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar. By war's end the confrontation have taken a much more conventional form, with the SADF up against 45000 Cubans suplied with modern Soviet weaponary, FAPLA (Angolan Army), PLAN (Peoples Liberation Army of Namibia). By 1989, the end of the Cold War, political moves towards peace from the parties concerned, lead to a peaceful sub-continent.

Back to Iraq: The USA can learn from the British in the south how to win the "hearts and minds" of the people as a 1st step in ending a counter insurgency conflict. Typical American arrogance and ignorance is not going to help!
 

Defcon 6

New Member
The day Bush declared the war over, I told a friend that the war for the USA in Iraq is only starting now...The USA tactics are wrong: you cannot win a counter insurgency war by just throwing money, material and men at it - Vietnam!!!. Further, their Intel is poor, and they do not have sufficient first-hand information to stop the bombings etc. Again, money and technology does not provide the complete answer to obtain Intelligence. You have to gather in with covert forward observation agents, physical patrols, and infiltrating the enemy ranks to obtain 1st-hand information; while simulatiuosly earn the respect of the local population.

We could have won vietnam is Nixon hadn't had a list of priority targets that we couldn't attack for fear of soviet repraisal. The Iraq war has been won. And the insurgents have been totally unsucessful in all their tactics. Proof of that is the fact that they haven't made one successful attack on the green zone, nor have they managed to stop any recent important events such as the elections. The U.S has earned the respect of the local populance. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't have a informed outlook on anything thats going on there. Anyways, money, manpower and technology is what makes the U.S the #1 super power in the first place. In fact, really I would wager the U.S is the only super power anymore.

These lessons were learnt in South Africa more than a century ago, when in the Anglo Boer War (1899-1902), the mighty British Empire attacked the 2 Boer republics of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, having 450 000! men in the field by war's end, -against about 50 000 Boers. The British also declared the war over at the end of the conventional phase, but despite being outnumbered 10:1, and their farms and houses being burnt down, women and children dying in Concentration Camps; the Boers kept the Empire busy for another 2 years in one of the most costly wars for the Empire. (My grandfather fought in the Boer war and his house was also burned down as part of the policy of "scorched earth".)

Whats south africa have to do with anything. Not only is it nothing like modern warfare, but it isn't even an example that has the U.S in it.

In more recent history, the former SADF fought a 23 year Counter Insurgeny war in Namibia and Angola, in what became known as the South African Bushwar (1966-1989). The former SADF managed to win this was as is evident by the number of incidents (mines, bombings, attacks, etc.) as illustrated on the webpage: http://www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar. By war's end the confrontation have taken a much more conventional form, with the SADF up against 45000 Cubans suplied with modern Soviet weaponary, FAPLA (Angolan Army), PLAN (Peoples Liberation Army of Namibia). By 1989, the end of the Cold War, political moves towards peace from the parties concerned, lead to a peaceful sub-continent.

Another pointless example.

Back to Iraq: The USA can learn from the British in the south how to win the "hearts and minds" of the people as a 1st step in ending a counter insurgency conflict. Typical American arrogance and ignorance is not going to help!

No, the U.S has launched and won the most brilliant military campaign of the century. We attacked a country with the fourth largest standing army in the world and won within a very short period of time. I would have to say that insulting us isn't going to do you any good. Or should I say, typical Anti-American arrogance and ignorance?
 

KGB

New Member
But has the US actually won any counter insurgency wars? The last example I believe would be in the turn of the century. The US put down an insurgency in the Philippines, but none of the methods used would be acceptable today. Counter insurgency is a dirty war; the rebel is the fish, and the people are the water. Sometimes they drain the fishpond to get at the fish.
 

Defcon 6

New Member
So the only reliable tactics are the ones being used. Lets face it, casualties are extremely low in the Iraq War while enemy combatants are dying on a daily basis. Further more all primary objectives (such as securing elections) have been successful. The insurgents have failed and basically the U.S and Iraqi Security Forces are winning without a doubt.
 

KGB

New Member
In the end, it will be a matter of political will. The Vietnamese took huge casualties fighting the US but they proved more willing to bleed than the US. On the plus side for the US is that there is no superpower backing up the insurgents. The Vietnamese and the Afghans held off superpowers, but they did get significant help.
 

Defcon 6

New Member
The technology gap has gotten so great they just won't be able to pull their own against even the Iraqi securty forces. We are really just talking about a band of extremists with assualt rifles and rpg's. They are already beginning to run out of steam.
 

driftder

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
ahemm...I can only say please mind your P's and Q's, I rather not have this thread still-born and nipped as a result of bloated egos. So please keep the flaming off, no point in trading insults. I rather we trade opinions and options on how to go about winning a guerilla war, be it against the Al-Queda or the CPM (now dissolved and extinct - so they say...).

Military, the US have inflicted an outstanding defeat conventionally against Saddam's armies. The only problem is the defeated Iraq forces have distintegrated into many splinter cells, taking independent/semi-independent action, taking pot shots at the Allies. Now they are trying to move on to co-ordinated action - witness the aftermath of Fallujah, with terror strikes breaking out elsewhere to act as a diversion.

Another thing I noted about US tactics is their heavy handed way of dishing out firepower. For eg if a sniper shoots at a US patrol, they will call in a air strike on the sniper's position, instead of going in after the sniper with a anti-sniper squad or another sniper. It could be a different tactics, culture but I don't notice that in their US Marines - the Marines over focus on CQB is rather legendary.

So these are some of the issues I would like to bring up hopefully without issues of "my country is better then yours", "we are the meanest moth**r-f***ker outfit" blah blah ad nauseam.
 

KGB

New Member
Which brings us to the question; how do they know whether or not a counter insurgency war is being won? What are the parameters that they use to assess the situation? Insurgents nowadays don't seem to follow the old "control the countryside and then isolate the cities" model used by old classic communist insurgencies (except the nepalese insurgency which appropriately is maoist). What they seem to be after (especially those in iraq), is PR.

The Tet offensive was a military disaster for the vietnamese; they didn't gain any of their major objectives and they lost a lot of assets, but they scored big propoganda coup - they eventually persuaded the US that vietnam wasn't worth the cost. My guess is that al quaeda is thinking along these lines - they're into showy targets (world trade center for example).

Anyway, if PR is the insurgets objectives, then body counts and media coverage are their means of keeping score. How does the US military evaluate the results of their operations?
 

driftder

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
KGB said:
Which brings us to the question; how do they know whether or not a counter insurgency war is being won? What are the parameters that they use to assess the situation? Insurgents nowadays don't seem to follow the old "control the countryside and then isolate the cities" model used by old classic communist insurgencies (except the nepalese insurgency which appropriately is maoist). What they seem to be after (especially those in iraq), is PR.

The Tet offensive was a military disaster for the vietnamese; they didn't gain any of their major objectives and they lost a lot of assets, but they scored big propoganda coup - they eventually persuaded the US that vietnam wasn't worth the cost. My guess is that al quaeda is thinking along these lines - they're into showy targets (world trade center for example).

Anyway, if PR is the insurgets objectives, then body counts and media coverage are their means of keeping score. How does the US military evaluate the results of their operations?
I believe you have hit the nail on the spot this time. Fallujah was the terrs Tet except it fell flat on their face. Whoever was in charge of the US forces was not taking any chances. Need to find out more about this. Could the US have a kind of modified management system where they can forecast the likely outcome of a set of events?
 

parm

Banned Member
CO IN=COunter INsurgency. US forces getting trained by Indian CIJWS.

driftder said:
I believe you have hit the nail on the spot this time. Fallujah was the terrs Tet except it fell flat on their face. Whoever was in charge of the US forces was not taking any chances. Need to find out more about this. Could the US have a kind of modified management system where they can forecast the likely outcome of a set of events?
I would like to present some website for information:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article12.html

http://news.indiainfo.com/2004/04/06/0604usarmy.html

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76158

http://www.zoram.com/index.php?module=pagesetter&func=viewpub&tid=3&pid=1334

Indian Army has one of the best experience in counter insurgency thanx to terrorists fighting in Kashmir and north east sates.

Now in the age of Global terrorism and War on Terror, we are sharing our first hand experience with armies of Friendly nations ONLY!:finger
 

parm

Banned Member
parm said:
I would like to present some website for information:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article12.html

http://news.indiainfo.com/2004/04/06/0604usarmy.html

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76158

http://www.zoram.com/index.php?module=pagesetter&func=viewpub&tid=3&pid=1334

Indian Army has one of the best experience in counter insurgency thanx to terrorists fighting in Kashmir and north east sates.

Now in the age of Global terrorism and War on Terror, we are sharing our first hand experience with armies of Friendly nations ONLY!:finger

sorry i missed one special article by Pakistani newspaper regarding US army guys being trained in indian CIJWS.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/04/10/int7.htm
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Counterinsurgency lessons

Just read an excellent book on counterinsurgency based on the succesful British efforts in Malaya and the unsuccessful American experiences in Vietnam, specifically the ability of the military to learn and adapt from mistakes made on the ground to transform spearpoint operations to win hearts and minds and destroy insurgent support.

Apparently the book ' Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife' is required reading for US officers deploying to Iraq.

The author, Lieutenant Colonel John A. Nagl led a tank platoon in Desert Storm and served as the Ops Officer in US unit in Iraq in 2004.

A very interesting and insightful read when compared to current operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top