Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[stephen weist]

The tribals will have to be replaced in the near future, anyone have any thoughts on possible replacements. I think the replacements should be slightly larger to accomodate the CnC task and also for future upgrades. I think the anti air/missile capability should be enhanced as the city class frigates could handle the ASW component of any taskforce. Would six be enough, this would leave on avail on each coast at all times.

 

[JAF]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

De Zeven Provincien Class. The Arleigh Burkes are too expensive in terms of cash and personnel. The LCF meets your suggested requirements of size and Command functions and actually have a lower manpower footprint than the Tribals.

 

[tatra]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

De Zeven Provincien Class. The Arleigh Burkes are too expensive in terms of cash and personnel. The LCF meets your suggested requirements of size and Command functions and actually have a lower manpower footprint than the Tribals.

Actually, Canada co-funded the APAR infrastructure with Netherlands and Germany. In fact, rather than LCF, you should look as a Halifax class derivative with APAR.

See: http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/current/futurddg/

www.hazegray.org

Look in: Canadian Navy of Yesterday & Today

Look under Destroyers, concept DDG in:

The Canadian Navy of Yesterday & Today. Current Canadian Ship Listing 2005

"PROVINCE" class concept (DDG) air defence / anti-submarine destroyer

 

[slapshot]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

Hi I am a little confused by the tribal clasification? Are you talking about the Iroquois class that needs replacement? I know dumb question

 

[JAF]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

Fr: Slapshot, quote; “Hi I am a little confused by the tribal clasification? Are you talking about the Iroquois class that needs replacement? I know dumb questionâ€

Yes, the Tribal class and Iroquois are the same

Fr Tetra, quote: “Actually, Canada co-funded the APAR infrastructure with Netherlands and Germany. In fact, rather than LCF, you should look as a Halifax class derivative with APAR.â€

I don’t agree. The Halifax design is getting on in age and is not nearly as stealthy as it could be. They are cramped vessels cuz so much stuff has been crammed in to a small hull, relatively speaking, compared to the LCF. The design would need so much tinkering in order for them to become a truly modern AAW/Task force command platform that they would have little in common with the original design. Additionally the Halifax still has a larger manpower footprint than the LCF. I doubt building new ones with AAW/ command functions as their primary role will reduce this.

 

[Brit]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

Second hand Spruance (sp?) or a MEKO design with large hanger wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

The tribals will have to be replaced in the near future, anyone have any thoughts on possible replacements. I think the replacements should be slightly larger to accomodate the CnC task and also for future upgrades. I think the anti air/missile capability should be enhanced as the city class frigates could handle the ASW component of any taskforce. Would six be enough, this would leave on avail on each coast at all times.

While I confess to have limited knowledge of naval matters, I will say that the priority should be to make sure that our ships can operate in ice conditions that are found in the arctic. Also a Littoral capability perhaps with the help of our Norwregian and swedish friends in procuring a lean, mean Coastal patrol and arctic patrol class that can also be good in a scrap.

 

[slapshot]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

Thanks Jaf for the clarification. I think the Canadian goverment not the Navy will just do another Life Extension Program or go cheep and buy second hand ships if they can. Case in point the Upholders we got from the Britts. We seem to do that to often for my taste in this country. Yes they need to be replaced but I hope they do it right and get the best for our guys and gals who do a great job with what they are given.

 

[stephen weist]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

slapshot, the correct class name is Tribal, the ships were then named after Native tribes in Canada. the Iroquois was the first of the class but alot of people call the class after her.

 

[PhillTaj]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

The JSS has overshadowed all other Navy projects. A shame really.

I just cant see a liberal government replacing the Tribals.

Thats why im voting conservative lol, even though their track record on defense is just as bad.

 

[JAF]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

What is the JSS

 

[Dr Phobus]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

Some interesting thoughts here, my 5 cents worth is:

1-yes they will use APAR system with Mk41 VLS, or the newer VLS system now under contruction. They will use standard III/ESSM/Tomohawk (maybe the later in time), the number of VLS launchers will be similar to the LCF/F-124(no more than 6x8 probably). It will carry an active LF towed array, 5in gun, CIWS (Sea-RAM ?) and a cylcone ASW helo.

2-it will be on a whole new warship design, no up-dated or off the shelf types. The candians will need to retrain some within state warships design ability.

3-i imagine no more than 3-4 units will be built.

4- off topic, i do not consider halifax a successful design, any comments ?

 

[JAF]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

.

4- off topic, i do not consider halifax a successful design, any comments ?

Why? By what standard of success do you measure. Consider what Canada had beofre then. 30+ year old steamers.

 

[Dr Phobus]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

For a large vessel i consider it under armed, its above deck VLS system along the side of the hanger has not allowed much exspansion of its firepower. It has a 57mm gun and onw CIWS. It is a shame with was not equipped with 8cell Mk 41 VLS below deck. Its an opinion, its a good looking ship and designed for atalantic ASW missions..

 

[JAF]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

For a large vessel i consider it under armed, its above deck VLS system along the side of the hanger has not allowed much exspansion of its firepower. It has a 57mm gun and onw CIWS. It is a shame with was not equipped with 8cell Mk 41 VLS below deck. Its an opinion, its a good looking ship and designed for atalantic ASW missions..

Interesting. I was just curious. On first inspection much of what you have written is bang on.

When the ship was designed (Pre 1985) The sparrow was one of a few choices of PDMS. The MK 41 VLS at the time was earmarked for Standard II, which the Halifax class is not designed to use, being primarily, as you have rightly indicated, an ASW vessel. The other choices of the day were Tomahawks, which you, me and everyone else can forget about Canada ever having, and VLS ASROC, not in the budget.

Now that the Evolved Sea Sparrow has come into being, and with greater oprions for the MK 41, hind sight is always 20/20. 32 VLS in total (16 per side that is) still seems like plenty of PDMS missiles.

As for the Bofors Mk II 57mm, it was reasoned that at the time it would have a greater duo role of surface action against small attack boats and as a secondary PDGS.

Evolving as these discussions naturally do, what role do you see for a 5 in gun on a frigate or destroyer?

 

[Dr Phobus]

Re: Canadian tribal replacement

Interesting. I was just curious. On first inspection much of what you have written is bang on.

When the ship was designed (Pre 1985) The sparrow was one of a few choices of PDMS. The MK 41 VLS at the time was earmarked for Standard II, which the Halifax class is not designed to use, being primarily, as you have rightly indicated, an ASW vessel. The other choices of the day were Tomahawks, which you, me and everyone else can forget about Canada ever having, and VLS ASROC, not in the budget.

Now that the Evolved Sea Sparrow has come into being, and with greater oprions for the MK 41, hind sight is always 20/20. 32 VLS in total (16 per side that is) still seems like plenty of PDMS missiles.

As for the Bofors Mk II 57mm, it was reasoned that at the time it would have a greater duo role of surface action against small attack boats and as a secondary PDGS.

Evolving as these discussions naturally do, what role do you see for a 5 in gun on a frigate or destroyer?

The 127mm gun has evolved, with the excalaber round, its extened range with precision ability, thus, ones warship has a useful land attack ability, a very current role. In all, a new and important role. The 57mm gun, is a good light gun system, with the ability to develop into some form of CIWS..

The quad pack VLS ESSM is a concept that does go back aways. MK 41 was always meant for mutli-missile ability. Off the top of my head i can not remember the exact date. However, the halixfax carries only 16 RIM-7M, it would have been a sweet vessel with the Mk 41 8-16 cell...

 

[Sea Toby]

I think the Candians should build what the Australians will build to replace their destroyers, especially if the Aussies choose a scaled down version of the Arleigh Burke class that Gibbs&Cox are designing. Otherwise, its the Spanish Aegis frigate/destroyer.

 

[Salty Dog]

Halifax-Class Frigates Modernization

Halifax-Class Frigates Modernization: Canadian Forces' Frigates Will Have a Host of New Upgrades by 2017

(Source: Public Works and Government Services Canada; issued April 10, 2008)

In a joint initiative between PWGSC and the Department of National Defence, the Canadian Forces' Halifax Class frigates will be retrofitted with new operation rooms, radar suites and various communications, control and warfare systems.

The upgrades are part of a C$3.1 billion modernization project that is set to begin in 2010. PWGSC has been involved since 2005 in the planning, preparation and co-ordination of the procurement process of the contracts involved.

The Department conducted several public meetings with potential bidders to provide information about contract requirements. A fairness observer was also appointed to watch over the hiring process and consult the industrial sector to develop thorough Statements of Interest and Qualifications for each contract. All information from the consultations was posted on-line, along with frequently asked questions and answers.

"Our policies are developed to ensure all suppliers get an opportunity to bid," said Terry Williston, Director General of PWGSC's Land, Aerospace and Marine Systems and Major Projects Sector.

"All Canadian suppliers, including small and medium-sized enterprises as well as Aboriginal providers, have a chance for government procurement."

Mr. Williston explained that working groups with both government and industry representatives had been conducted over 18 months for both the combat system integration and ship refit portions of the project.

"The aim was not only to solicit industry's input, but also to strengthen the working relations between the project management office and the Canadian marine and defence industries."

There are five major contract elements that have been, or will be, awarded to qualified Canadian suppliers and service providers:

-- Two Multi-ship Refit Contracts, worth a total of $760 million, will be awarded in 2008. The ships will be refitted between January 2010 and June 2017.
-- Combat Systems Integrator Contract, worth $1.1 billion. A Request for Proposal will be issued to interested companies in early 2008, and a contract is planned for Fall 2008.
-- Command & Control System In-Service Support Contract, worth $300 million. Planned for Fall 2008.
-- Platform System Design Agent Contract, worth $150 million, awarded to Fleetway, Inc. in October 2006.

The frigates have been in service for the past 16 years and were initially designed for warfare missions in open ocean.

The Halifax Class modernization project will bring enhanced capability to the ships, enabling them to effectively function in a wider range of situations and environments.

 

[Sea Toby]

Halifax-Class Frigates Modernization: Canadian Forces' Frigates Will Have a Host of New Upgrades by 2017

So no replacement ships for the destroyers, and mid-life upgrades for the frigates.... These upgrades are going to cost almost as much as new frigates.

 

[contedicavour]

So no replacement ships for the destroyers, and mid-life upgrades for the frigates.... These upgrades are going to cost almost as much as new frigates.

Sad news for the Canadian Navy - at least a couple of extended Halifax with SM-2 would have been useful... I wonder what sort of AAW upgrade the Halifax are going to get... especially regarding area defence.

cheers