Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[drg]

Canadian FFGs to get spruced up

Apologies if already posted:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/04/21/shipyards-contracts.html
Hopefully this will help up north. Especially now the US has come out and declared they are going to be focused on the northern passageways as future security risks for US.

 

[AegisFC]

Actually it was, but in another topic, I'll go ahead and merge the 2.

I really like the City class, they are good looking ships and decently armed for what they are. I actually like them more than the OHP's (especially after the USN neutered theirs).
Here is a study done by the RCN in 1999 comparing the Halifax class its contemporaries.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/crs/pdfs/cpf_cost_e.pdf
It doesn't list the names of the ships but if you look at the charts and the appendix figuring out what the ships probably are is not that hard.

Ship 1 - Type 23
Ship 2 - FFG 7 (OHP)
Ship 3 - ANZAC
Ship 4 - La Fayette
Ship 5 - Taiwanese OHP
Ship 6 - Klasse F123 (German)
Ship 7 - Meko 200 HN (Hydra)
Ship 8 - Karel Doorman
Ship 9 - Korean KDX-1
Ship 10 - Jiangwei

Here is an article that lists exactly what the upgrades will entail, it also shows layout changes and stuff they want to have if money permits.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmepm/pmofelex/docs/Documents_and_Presentations/SNAME_Brief_2006.pdf

 

[kato]

Ship 10 definitely isn't a Floreal. Stated specs ( 2250 tons, 6 SSMs, 6 SAMs, 2x 100mm gun @ 18 rpm, 25 knots max, 170 crew ) fit a Type 055 Jiangwei-I.

Can anyone think of something for Ship 11?

Specs: 2550 tons, 111 crew, no SSM, 76mm gun, 8 SR RL, 6 TT, no helo.

 

[tatra]

Actually it was, but in another topic, I'll go ahead and merge the 2.

I really like the City class, they are good looking ships and decently armed for what they are. I actually like them more than the OHP's (especially after the USN neutered theirs).
Here is a study done by the RCN in 1999 comparing the Halifax class its contemporaries.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/crs/pdfs/cpf_cost_e.pdf
It doesn't list the names of the ships but if you look at the charts and the appendix figuring out what the ships probably are is not that hard.

Ship 1 - Type 23
Ship 2 - FFG 7 (OHP)
Ship 3 - ANZAC
Ship 4 - La Fayette
Ship 5 - Taiwanese OHP
Ship 6 - Klasse F123 (German)
Ship 7 - Meko 200 HN (Hydra)
Ship 8 - Karel Doorman
Ship 9 - Korean KDX-1
Ship 10 - Jiangwei

Here is an article that lists exactly what the upgrades will entail, it also shows layout changes and stuff they want to have if money permits.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmepm/pmofelex/docs/Documents_and_Presentations/SNAME_Brief_2006.pdf

I agree, their armament is similar to (smaller) european ships of the same generation but they have longer endurance and better rough-sea handling and (probably) smaller noise and thermal signatures. They are designed for duty on both the rough Atlantic and large Pacific oceans.

 

[Sea Toby]

Again, I am beginning to think these weapon systems upgrades are a waste of money. At half the price of new frigate, a nation would be better off buying new frigates at the 20 year point and selling the old frigates off, instead of attempting to get 30 years out of them. Maybe the Dutch are correct.

However, I am impressed with the upgrades planned for the City class. The upgrades will bring these ships up to the state of the art as much as possible.

 

[AegisFC]

Here is an article on the status of Canada's 4 subs.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=2ed32f8d-81ce-4097-b905-59fdebda6912

Canada's sub fleet down to one
Mike Blanchfield, Canwest News Service
Published: Thursday, June 05, 2008

OTTAWA -- For the next year and a half, Canada's navy will have only one submarine at sea from its small fleet of four troubled, second-hand Victoria Class boats, Canwest News Service has learned.

And the damaged HMCS Chicoutimi might not be seaworthy until as late as 2012 -- two years longer than officials said it would take for repairs -- meaning it will have been mothballed for eight years, according to documents recently released under the Access to Information Act.

Of the four submarines in the Canadian fleet, only HMCS Corner Brook is believed to be active. It returned to port in Halifax last month after three months at sea.
HMCS Victoria is in drydock in Esquimalt, where the submarine is undergoing $195 million in repairs and upgrades with a target date to re-enter active duty in 2009.

Three of the subs are based in the East, while one will operate out of CFB Esquimalt.

Canada's purchase of four used submarines from Britain for nearly $900 million, 10 years ago, has been dogged by controversy, technical setbacks and one notable tragedy -- the 2004 fire that grounded the Chicoutimi after claiming the life of one sailor and injuring eight others.

A briefing note prepared for Defence Minister Peter MacKay advised playing down the availability of submarines, in favour of emphasizing they are "an important strategic asset" to Canada's maritime security.

"If pressed on submarine availability," the note advises, MacKay should disclose that the Defence Department "has put in place a maintenance regime that plans for at least one submarine to be available for operations until steady state is achieved in late 2009, after which two or more submarines will usually be operational and available at all times."

In February, the head of the navy, Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson, told reporters he expected all three submarines other than the Chicoutimi to be sailing by late 2009.

As for the Chicoutimi repairs, the briefing note says that "if pressed" MacKay should explain "the best way ahead would be to focus on the other three submarines and to repair Chicoutimi as part of that submarine's already scheduled maintenance period in 2010-2012."

Military officials have said that they expect maintenance to begin in 2010 on the Chicoutimi, which caught fire off the coast of Ireland in October 2004 on its maiden voyage from Scotland to Canada.

Canada seems to have no luck with those subs.

 

[jtl310]

Again, I am beginning to think these weapon systems upgrades are a waste of money. At half the price of new frigate, a nation would be better off buying new frigates at the 20 year point and selling the old frigates off, instead of attempting to get 30 years out of them. Maybe the Dutch are correct.

However, I am impressed with the upgrades planned for the City class. The upgrades will bring these ships up to the state of the art as much as possible.

Im sure it will be run for more than 30 years, take alook at the Iroquois-class they are expected to retire 2010-2012 thats a 40 year life span. So it only makes sense this is a mid life upgrade, to bring the ship up to world standard and run it for another 20 years. It is much more cost effective this way than buying a new ship for twice as much.


Btw does anyone have any information on possible replacement of the Iroquois class? Ive heard of the providence years back, but havent heard anything recently, especially considering the destroyers are quite old now. Or is the Canadian government not going to replace em?

Canada seems to have no luck with those subs.

Thats what canada gets for being cheap...

Too bad we didnt order new subs in the first place. All we would have required were 2 subs initially, with a follow on order of 2 more 5 years later. I think we could have managed that alot better.

 

[AegisFC]

The RCN is sending the HMCS Ville de Quebec to escort food shipments going to Somalia.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/06/america/NA-Canada-Navy-Somalia.php

 

[Sea Toby]

Im sure it will be run for more than 30 years, take alook at the Iroquois-class they are expected to retire 2010-2012 thats a 40 year life span. So it only makes sense this is a mid life upgrade, to bring the ship up to world standard and run it for another 20 years. It is much more cost effective this way than buying a new ship for twice as much.


Btw does anyone have any information on possible replacement of the Iroquois class? Ive heard of the providence years back, but havent heard anything recently, especially considering the destroyers are quite old now. Or is the Canadian government not going to replace em?



Thats what canada gets for being cheap...

Too bad we didnt order new subs in the first place. All we would have required were 2 subs initially, with a follow on order of 2 more 5 years later. I think we could have managed that alot better.

There will be no replacement for the Iroquois class, effectively reducing the Canadian navy to 12 frigates, and hopefully 3 replenishment/sea lift ships.

 

[tatra]

There will be no replacement for the Iroquois class, effectively reducing the Canadian navy to 12 frigates, and hopefully 3 replenishment/sea lift ships.

At least you still got 12 frigates! (Dutch navy went from some 14 major surface combattants to just 4 destroyers and 2 frigates in a decade :shudder)

 

[StevoJH]

At least you still got 12 frigates! (Dutch navy went from some 14 major surface combattants to just 4 destroyers and 2 frigates in a decade :shudder)

The dutch navy is not the only navy to have its numbers reduced by over half since the end of the cold war, the same thing has happened to both the RN and USN (in escort numbers) as well as probably others.

Luckily the RAN is still roughly the same size as it has been the last 30 or 40 years.

 

[ASFC]

Yes but the Dutch Navy has suffered particularly badly-most Nato Navies have cut numbers, but improved the quality of the ships and weapons they have used. Dutch Frigates have always been fairly well balanced with good weapons systems, and they have just cut numbers. Although I suppose these new OPV vessels they are building will do some of the lighter duties.

On the issue of DDGs for the Canadians, if they wanted them thier best bet would be to buy an existing design-purely for speed. At the moment it looks like they could be one of the few 'large' navies without an Area Air Defence capability.

 

[harryriedl]

Yes but the Dutch Navy has suffered particularly badly-most Nato Navies have cut numbers, but improved the quality of the ships and weapons they have used. Dutch Frigates have always been fairly well balanced with good weapons systems, and they have just cut numbers. Although I suppose these new OPV vessels they are building will do some of the lighter duties.

On the issue of DDGs for the Canadians, if they wanted them thier best bet would be to buy an existing design-purely for speed. At the moment it looks like they could be one of the few 'large' navies without an Area Air Defence capability.

they were late to the missile game they didn't have a missile armed escort till Iroquois class of 1970 so being a little behind in AAW is a CFMC tradition.

 

[kato]

they were late to the missile game they didn't have a missile armed escort till Iroquois class of 1970

That's not exactly late.

If you look at early AAW classes (and really, not single-ship classes) outside the USN, say before '67, you'll get... what?

The first four RN County class destroyers, with their Sea Slug and Sea Cat, from '63 on. Dunno how functional that was, the various Type 12 classes didn't get Sea Cat until late 60s to early 70s.
The four T47 Tartar of the MN, upgraded around '63-64, along with the two Duquesne destroyers and the AAW cruiser Colbert, all with Masurca, mid-60s.
Italy was also early with the two Impavidos in '63, using Tartar.

Germany got their first AAW destroyer in '69. Greece came particularly late with the Ellis around '80. Japan... hmmm, that single Amatsukaze in '63 with Mk13? The Dutch only had a single DZP cruiser upgraded with Terrier in '64. Spain... the F70 Baleares class in the late 70s?

Canada was smack in the middle.

 

[AegisFC]

That's not exactly late.

If you look at early AAW classes (and really, not single-ship classes) outside the USN, say before '67, you'll get... what?

The first four RN County class destroyers, with their Sea Slug and Sea Cat, from '63 on. Dunno how functional that was, the various Type 12 classes didn't get Sea Cat until late 60s to early 70s.
The four T47 Tartar of the MN, upgraded around '63-64, along with the two Duquesne destroyers and the AAW cruiser Colbert, all with Masurca, mid-60s.
Italy was also early with the two Impavidos in '63, using Tartar.

Germany got their first AAW destroyer in '69. Greece came particularly late with the Ellis around '80. Japan... hmmm, that single Amatsukaze in '63 with Mk13? The Dutch only had a single DZP cruiser upgraded with Terrier in '64. Spain... the F70 Baleares class in the late 70s?

Canada was smack in the middle.

Agree, however as built the Iroquois were primarily armed with the first generation of Sea Sparrow missiles, not exactly area defense weapons. They also had that wacky looking quad launcher that only the RCN used (I've yet to find a good clear picture of it BTW).
It wasn't until the TRUMP program that they received the SM-2's.

 

[kato]

Technically, Tartar wasn't area air-defence either... so basically, outside the USN, in the 60s we're down to the three French ships with Masurca, the four British ships with Sea Slug and the single Dutch cruiser with Terrier, as far as "real" area AAW goes. And Sea Slug was rather short-ranged in comparison too.

 

[contedicavour]

There will be no replacement for the Iroquois class, effectively reducing the Canadian navy to 12 frigates, and hopefully 3 replenishment/sea lift ships.

I still remember reading in the late 80s about Canadian plans to procure 12 SSNs... my oh my how things can change in 20 years.
The Iroquois are getting obsolete with no phased array radar to guide the SM2s and the platforms are creaking old. There are only 3 left anyway, since the 4th was sunk in an exercise.
My understanding is that Canada is fixing the most urgent problem of being able to deploy to the other side of the world troops, fuel, ammo and all sorts of support material since the Canadian armed forces are peacekeeping very actively. Providing theater area defence is not a priority.
Although personally I would try to add VLS SM2 to 3 or 4 of the Halifax, eventually.

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

I still remember reading in the late 80s about Canadian plans to procure 12 SSNs... my oh my how things can change in 20 years.
The Iroquois are getting obsolete with no phased array radar to guide the SM2s and the platforms are creaking old. There are only 3 left anyway, since the 4th was sunk in an exercise.
My understanding is that Canada is fixing the most urgent problem of being able to deploy to the other side of the world troops, fuel, ammo and all sorts of support material since the Canadian armed forces are peacekeeping very actively. Providing theater area defence is not a priority.
Although personally I would try to add VLS SM2 to 3 or 4 of the Halifax, eventually.

cheers

they do seem to be a little on borrowed time. but rember how long they hanged onto Terra Nova from 6th June 1959-11 July 1997 a very long lifespan for a ship of that class

 

[Sea Toby]

The last I read is that the Canadians are interested in buying up to 5 OPVs ice strengthened. If there are replacements for the Iroquois destroyers, it will be the OPVs, not destroyers or frigates. There is a concern there will be more illegal fishing up north with the present global warming.

 

[battlensign]

The last I read is that the Canadians are interested in buying up to 5 OPVs ice strengthened. If there are replacements for the Iroquois destroyers, it will be the OPVs, not destroyers or frigates. There is a concern there will be more illegal fishing up north with the present global warming.

I fully understand where they are coming from. It really makes sense to beef up the policing level presence there. However, should anything actually happen that the OPVs cannot take care of (like someone sending an 'escort' with their fishing fleet) than some Destroyer level backup as a show of force would be a good idea - or the falklands lesson (Destroyers capable of being deployed in the RCN inventory may prevent another nation from 'escorting' their fishing fleet in the first place).

Brett.