ADF General discussion thread

[Stampede]

I’m really surprised this type of SHORAD Has taken so long to get traction. The ADF has the same potential problem. Skyranger typer SHORAD on mobile platforms just makes so much sense. A base like Williamstown or FBE appears vulnerable U.S. Air Force Seeks Anti-Aircraft Guns To Protect Its Overseas Bases

There are probably a number of layers needed for defence against a variety of threats.
Part of the challenge will be time to service.
I feel interceptor drones like “the sting” offer a good flexible capability at a good price, build numbers and rapid acquisition.
A capability needed across land and sea.

A concern for airfields particularly those near urban areas is the fallout from munitions.

30 to 40mm high explosive founds flying all directions in high volumes may not do wonders for the neighbours.

It’s a challenging task to find the smart answer.

Cheers S

 

[Bob53]

There are probably a number of layers needed for defence against a variety of threats.
Part of the challenge will be time to service.
I feel interceptor drones like “the sting” offer a good flexible capability at a good price, build numbers and rapid acquisition.
A capability needed across land and sea.

A concern for airfields particularly those near urban areas is the fallout from munitions.

30 to 40mm high explosive founds flying all directions in high volumes may not do wonders for the neighbours.

It’s a challenging task to find the smart answer.

Cheers S

In Australia’s case… I’m thinking we currently don’t have any missile threat but we do have drones flying over bases. AHEAD ammunition fragments and that apparently make it safe to use over Urban areas. Imagine the crap storm in the event a amateur drone hits a radar at FBE or damages a F35. my view is why not set up a fleet on 8x8s and use them at bases in peace time and they can deploy as part of a layered SHORAD team with army navy airforce when needed. Truck mounted provides a bit more of a targeting problem for any perspective enemy. i think putting it on a boxer is a bit of over kill for fleet base protection. Truck mounted is apparently around $15 m USD per unit and about $4000 per engagement if the Rheinmetal PR is to be believed.

 

[Stampede]

In Australia’s case… I’m thinking we currently don’t have any missile threat but we do have drones flying over bases. AHEAD ammunition fragments and that apparently make it safe to use over Urban areas. Imagine the crap storm in the event a amateur drone hits a radar at FBE or damages a F35. my view is why not set up a fleet on 8x8s and use them at bases in peace time and they can deploy as part of a layered SHORAD team with army navy airforce when needed. Truck mounted provides a bit more of a targeting problem for any perspective enemy. i think putting it on a boxer is a bit of over kill for fleet base protection. Truck mounted is apparently around $15 m USD per unit and about $4000 per engagement if the Rheinmetal PR is to be believed.View attachment 55563

Agree we need an answer to the challenge of providing security for our fixed military and civilian assets.

 

[old faithful]

Agree we need an answer to the challenge of providing security for our fixed military and civilian assets.

All of the things we need require one element that the ADF is failing at, and that is manpower.
They really need to comit to growth, and fast.

 

[spoz]

Sorry, having the ADF engage drones with live ammunition in Australia is just not going to happen in the current strategic circumstances - there is absolutely no justification for the potential danger to the civilian population, whatever the ammunition nature used. If nothing else, in the event of a successful kill you have the potential for either the complete air vehicle, uncontrolled - or bits of it -injuring people or damaging property.

Soft kill of those that penetrate airspace over ADF facilities is conceivable, but still not likely - for much the same reason.

 

[Murse]

In Australia’s case… I’m thinking we currently don’t have any missile threat but we do have drones flying over bases. AHEAD ammunition fragments and that apparently make it safe to use over Urban areas. Imagine the crap storm in the event a amateur drone hits a radar at FBE or damages a F35. my view is why not set up a fleet on 8x8s and use them at bases in peace time and they can deploy as part of a layered SHORAD team with army navy airforce when needed. Truck mounted provides a bit more of a targeting problem for any perspective enemy. i think putting it on a boxer is a bit of over kill for fleet base protection. Truck mounted is apparently around $15 m USD per unit and about $4000 per engagement if the Rheinmetal PR is to be believed.View attachment 55563

Guns on trucks are sitting ducks for said drones. Mounted on Boxers or Bushies at the very least.

As Spoz says, not in this environment either...

 

[south]

That “strategic environment” will last until the first OWA drone / Cruise Missile lands. Ask the Ukrainians or the Gulf States.

 

[Bob53]

Guns on trucks are sitting ducks for said drones. Mounted on Boxers or Bushies at the very least.

As Spoz says, not in this environment either...

I’m not suggesting an attack as such…I’m talking about a dumbass civilian doing it to F around. In the eventof a proper drone it Would ot matter what they unit was transported on. With a truck it is the opposite of a static defence And the cost heads to the $45m mark over unit if on a boxer.

 

[ADMk2]

Sorry, having the ADF engage drones with live ammunition in Australia is just not going to happen in the current strategic circumstances - there is absolutely no justification for the potential danger to the civilian population, whatever the ammunition nature used. If nothing else, in the event of a successful kill you have the potential for either the complete air vehicle, uncontrolled - or bits of it -injuring people or damaging property.

Soft kill of those that penetrate airspace over ADF facilities is conceivable, but still not likely - for much the same reason.

Amazing how things change when you’re actually being shot at.

https://youtube.com/shorts/uVLVIbE7psw?si=sMnDPgh05O8iFSl8

 

[spoz]

Yes, but we are not being and there is currently no credible threat that would suggest we will be anytime soon. By all means acquire the capability. However, from my reading of his post the OP was proposing it be used to shoot down drones approaching defence facilities in today’s environment. That is, quite frankly, not on. If the circumstances change to those facing Ukraine (how that could happen is an another question given geography) then the response would change too.

 

[SammyC]

Yes, but we are not being and there is currently no credible threat that would suggest we will be anytime soon. By all means acquire the capability. However, from my reading of his post the OP was proposing it be used to shoot down drones approaching defence facilities in today’s environment. That is, quite frankly, not on. If the circumstances change to those facing Ukraine (how that could happen is an another question given geography) then the response would change too.

I think the question is just how rapidly the threat emerges. Ukraine didn't get time to preposition drone defences.

All good to have a peace time non utilisation, but in a suprise attack where there is a sudden need to roll out mass defences across every facility, then having the equipment prepared would be valuable.

The truck mounted systems seem to be a good fit with capability v cost for onshore needs, even if some get destroyed. I'm sure the Rheinmetal MAN truck factory in QLD could mass produce these.

Produce the skyranger on the boxer frame for expeditionary purposes.

 

[old faithful]

I think the question is just how rapidly the threat emerges. Ukraine didn't get time to preposition drone defences.

All good to have a peace time non utilisation, but in a suprise attack where there is a sudden need to roll out mass defences across every facility, then having the equipment prepared would be valuable.

The truck mounted systems seem to be a good fit with capability v cost for onshore needs, even if some get destroyed. I'm sure the Rheinmetal MAN truck factory in QLD could mass produce these.

Produce the skyranger on the boxer frame for expeditionary purposes.

These are the sort of capabilities that the ARES should be considered for. There are numerous roles that A RES would very well suited for and easy to maintain some sort of contingency capability. SHORAD, and other anti drone, and or use of drones.

 

[Stampede]

These are the sort of capabilities that the ARES should be considered for. There are numerous roles that A RES would very well suited for and easy to maintain some sort of contingency capability. SHORAD, and other anti drone, and or use of drones.

I think the RBS 70 is all but retired from ADF service.
While I can understand wanting something with more reach than what NASAMs provides currently: I also feel there is also merit in the man portable light weight short range stuff.
Look at how many defence forces use Mistral and Stinger class weapons.
These are very flexible assets that can be employed on land or at sea.
Very surprised the ADF don’t have this capability in significant numbers.


Cheers S

 

[ADMk2]

Yes, but we are not being and there is currently no credible threat that would suggest we will be anytime soon. By all means acquire the capability. However, from my reading of his post the OP was proposing it be used to shoot down drones approaching defence facilities in today’s environment. That is, quite frankly, not on. If the circumstances change to those facing Ukraine (how that could happen is an another question given geography) then the response would change too.

And how quickly does the ADF adapt to changed circumstances when peacetime plans are forced by circumstance to change?

I’m reminded of the time when Army considered 40mm auto-grenade launchers (AGL).

Well they don’t have the range of the M2 12.7mm gun. They don’t have the boom of the Carl Gustav, so why would we ever consider them?

Next operations commences? We urgently NEED 40mm AGL’s… Get that UOR project funded, ASAP!

Does anyone else observe any irony here? But for some reason, the ADF still runs “lessons learned“ sessions…

 

[ADMk2]

These are the sort of capabilities that the ARES should be considered for. There are numerous roles that A RES would very well suited for and easy to maintain some sort of contingency capability. SHORAD, and other anti drone, and or use of drones.

You mean besides the security roles they are meant to undertake, base security is now a 2DIV role too?

How many bases and for how long, can 2DIV legitimately sustain such operations?

in addition to which, some of those systems have a training requirement beyond that which 2DIV can cover.

RBS-70 being one of them.