The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

rsemmes

Active Member
how can you know that a man is corrupt and still give him huge amounts of money?
Water companies in the UK.

"Ukraine is corrupt down to the grassroot."
Another one of those Fairy Tale statements that we often see. There is corruption in Ukraine, you point your finger at corruption that you don't like. Ukraine is still working, its not the end of the world.
 
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deyhere

Member
Their motivation for fighting the war is a different point altogether and not related to my statement. My point was simply that diminishing Ukraine’s contribution as “only boots on the ground” is bizarre.
Ukraine has been on life support for ages, let NATO stop, let's see how long Ukraine will last. don't hype Ukraine, they are being breastfeed all the way.
 

personaldesas

Active Member
Ukraine has been on life support for ages, let NATO stop, let's see how long Ukraine will last. don't hype Ukraine, they are being breastfeed all the way.
I know you are trying to bait me into defending a point I did not make, but I am not interested.
My point was very simple: Ukrainians are paying with their lives, so framing them as freeloaders is obscene.
That is all I meant, and I am not going to keep engaging with this.
 

personaldesas

Active Member
I know you are trying to bait me into defending a point I did not make, but I am not interested.
My point was very simple: Ukrainians are paying with their lives, so framing them as freeloaders is obscene.
That is all I meant, and I am not going to keep engaging with this.
And yes, I would make the same point about Russian soldiers too if someone dismissed the human cost and suffering on their side.
 

Redshift

Active Member
Because I expect people reading this thread being familiar with "different countries supporting different projects at different levels". Was SK invited to the planning of the Robotine offensive? Its shells were used there or the US replaced them one by one?
You are just deliberately attempting to pose NATO as in some sort of permanent opposition to Russia (which it never was before this ludicrous war).

You are continually attempting to position the West via your made up catch-all terms as perpetually in the wrong and perpetually hypocritical, it's getting a bit long in the tooth now.
 

deyhere

Member
I know you are trying to bait me into defending a point I did not make, but I am not interested.
My point was very simple: Ukrainians are paying with their lives, so framing them as freeloaders is obscene.
That is all I meant, and I am not going to keep engaging with this.
i get you, Ukraine is paying with their lives, but for what thou? no one asked them to fight, they would have sort for peace with their neighbourly brothers but they chose to fight for NATO and freedom. once in a lifetime opportunity to beat the Russians. go on then.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
i get you, Ukraine is paying with their lives, but for what thou? no one asked them to fight, they would have sort for peace with their neighbourly brothers but they chose to fight for NATO and freedom. once in a lifetime opportunity to beat the Russians. go on then.
No, they chose to fight for their soverengty and freedom as most countries would who were invaded if they had the capability. I think you will find that most ethnic Ukrainians actually don't like Russia and that is why they left when the USSR broke up, so neighbourly brothers is a ridiculous description.
 

deyhere

Member
You are just deliberately attempting to pose NATO as in some sort of permanent opposition to Russia (which it never was before this ludicrous war).

You are continually attempting to position the West via your made up catch-all terms as perpetually in the wrong and perpetually hypocritical, it's getting a bit long in the tooth now.
NATO was originally formed to deter Soviet expansionism and Russia is the sole heir of the Soviet union. NATO has been in permanent opposition to the Soviet Union and now Russia. they wanted Georgia and Ukraine in NATO, they are making attempts to get Armenia into their orbit too.

The West is not innocent in this matter, too much double standards, it's totally hypocritical.
Russia was in a lot of trouble before Gaza and Iran, they were running a risk of total isolation from the West and the rest of the world, but after Gaza and Iran, the rest of the world have had enough. they don't care what the West says anymore, it becoming a joke
 

rsemmes

Active Member
permanent opposition to Russia (which it never was before this ludicrous war)
Actually, for the Robotine offensive (before, probably, when "NATO" decided that Ukraine was not going to be swallowed in a weekend). On the other hand, Russia was never a "partner", more like the competition.

attempting to position the West
The "attempt" is History and not "the West", every single government ever; all of them. I am "permanently" surprised with how some people think (or pretend) that they are living in a Disney film, were the king is noble and true to his word; and the wolf is evil.
 

deyhere

Member
No, they chose to fight for their soverengty and freedom as most countries would who were invaded if they had the capability. I think you will find that most ethnic Ukrainians actually don't like Russia and that is why they left when the USSR broke up, so neighbourly brothers is a ridiculous description.
they chose to fight for freedom by selling their sovereignty to the west? and they don't have the capability to defend them self so they got the west to help, when you look at the sanctions and the financial restrictions placed on Russia by the west, you will think that this is our war, the west is so invested in this war that if Ukraine don't win this, the shame and stigma will linger for a very long time.

not most, some Ukrainians don't like Russia, that's perfectly fine. because they don't like Russia, don't mean we should go and arm them to go get the Russians, in fact this is what we do very well, we always try to arm a faction to fight against countries we don't like, it almost happened to the Iranian Kurds, Trump tried to get the Kurds to fight Iran with him but the Kurds were smart, they dodged it clean.. Ukraine kind of stupid
 

rsemmes

Active Member
they chose to fight for freedom by selling their sovereignty to the west?
"so they got the west to help" + "Ukraine kind of stupid"

I'm afraid you're you are living in a Disney film too, just a different one.
By "selling their sovereignty" you mean that each side wanted Ukraine in its own sphere of influence, I guess; something logical for both sides.
Like Iran during the Iraq-Iran war or now, or like Spain during the SCW, you get weapons where you can; something logical for both sides.
 

deyhere

Member
Another TWZ article on Ukrainian UAV efforts against Russia. Betting a lot of defence planners around the world are having ugly internal arguments as to which future defence investments should have priority.

Inside Ukraine's AI-Enabled Drone Campaign Targeting Russian Logistics Deep Behind The Lines
been following this development for close to two weeks now, Russian logistics is crumbling all the way to Crimea. am seeing rumours that the 337th regiment is redrawing from Kinburn spit because of lack of supplies. it's not coming from a very trusted source so am still watching to see if it's confirmed.
 

deyhere

Member
"so they got the west to help" + "Ukraine kind of stupid"

I'm afraid you're you are living in a Disney film too, just a different one.
By "selling their sovereignty" you mean that each side wanted Ukraine in its own sphere of influence, I guess; something logical for both sides.
Like Iran during the Iraq-Iran war or now, or like Spain during the SCW, you get weapons where you can; something logical for both sides.
too many Disney films these days, am getting confused which one is which. Ukraine is fighting for freedom only to become a slave of Nato and EU, there is no sovereignty there.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
they chose to fight for freedom by selling their sovereignty to the west? and they don't have the capability to defend them self so they got the west to help, when you look at the sanctions and the financial restrictions placed on Russia by the west, you will think that this is our war, the west is so invested in this war that if Ukraine don't win this, the shame and stigma will linger for a very long time.

not most, some Ukrainians don't like Russia, that's perfectly fine. because they don't like Russia, don't mean we should go and arm them to go get the Russians, in fact this is what we do very well, we always try to arm a faction to fight against countries we don't like, it almost happened to the Iranian Kurds, Trump tried to get the Kurds to fight Iran with him but the Kurds were smart, they dodged it clean.. Ukraine kind of stupid
The reality is that Russia is one of the last empires left covering most of the territory of its zenith. The invasion was just an attempt by Putin to restore that empires glory.
Ethnic Ukrainians have been poorly treated by the Russian government in the past and they don't forget. For example in the famine of the 1930's Ukraine was striped of their crops to feed the Russians and because of this millions of Ukrainians died and many more suffered, I would suggest you talk to some and ask them if they have forgotten or forgiven.
Just because you except aid when you are invaded it does not mean you sold out, it means you are serious about your sovereignty and brotherly neighbours do not invade their their next door neighbours. The simple reality is that Putin though he could Bully Ukraine into submission easily as the USSR had done to Hungary and Czechoslovakia when they were not doing what it wanted.
In my opinion no country has the right to attack another unless that country is a direct threat to your freedom, and that includes both Russia and the USA.
 
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KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Er . . . since when has being able to get commercial data mean that they're having to wait for US official permission for each strike?
The post says that “Ukraine is no longer reliant on the US and can strike Russia as it chooses” and “without permission”. Clearly, neither is true. 100% dependence on the US providing this service is obvious, so it is fully reliant on the US, be it commercial services or those provided by the government. In reality, nothing had probably changed on the western side, but on Ukrainian. This article outlines vague details (@personaldesas):


The intel previously having to go through the vetting above, goes straight to the field. Note the article also says that coordinates provided are accurate within 5 meters and are good enough for a strike with a 50kg of explosives. Again, nothing has changed and it is not unlikely that strike coordinates are provided as they previously were since the very beginning. This leads to striking the provided targets, not as it chooses.

Finally, the service is most certainly provided with the blessing from the US government. So there is permission. Which has been getting looser ever since early 2022. We are simply observing the final stages of this development. And I had talked about it since… 2022.

Just like the leniency towards the strikes deep inside Russia, energy infrastructure, etc. All done with the American blessing and provision strike coordinates and desired hit placement (which, I would guess, rarely works out (the desired placement) because the operating capacity is usually restored within days or weeks at the longest (months worth of repairs is a rarity).

Funny enough, most of these medium-range strikes are also done with the American drones (not made in Ukraine), the Hornets. So no longer reliant is quite an exaggeration disconnected from reality.


Side note, I highly doubt these cost €5,000 each.

Interceptor drones (not made in Ukraine):


More on the Hornet manufacturer:


The deal stipulates an expansion of the American company's production capacities and supplying Ukraine with interceptor drones "on a priority basis, under special terms and at cost price."[…]

The Presidential Office states that "hundreds of thousands of drones" will be delivered this year already, with further output increase in 2026. As also mentioned, the U.S. company already has a significant presence in Ukraine and specializes in UAVs with artificial intelligence.[…]

As for the products supplied to Ukraine under the agreement, the Presidential Office lists interceptor drones, quadcopters for reconnaissance, surveillance, fire control and logistics, as well as medium-class strike drones. All of them can use artificial intelligence for guidance, navigation and adjusting the pilot's command.

In the future, the parties plan to develop interceptors of cruise and ballistic missiles, automatic turrets, and reconnaissance platforms. Defense Express assumes that production facilities will be deployed in Denmark, where the memorandum was signed, or in Estonia, where Volya Robotics OÜ is registered.


Again, not produced in Ukraine. And so on.

Would anyone be surprised that down the line we find out that absolute majority of the “Ukrainian ingenuity” was supplies by the Western countries and Ukraine is simply the ideal testing ground for these weapons? Of course not or no one should be. All this Ukrainian AI developments, targeting, etc? In my opinion, the probability is close to zero that Ukrainians develop the stuff themselves (they certainly do, but the proportion of home-developed stuff is most likely minuscule in comparison, if not negligible, proportionally speaking). But they are paying for it, like someone said, the highest price, in blood and (my addition) the future of the country.

Ukrainians and Russians have a saying “don’t make my sleepers laugh”. This applies to Ukrainians selling their tech to the US and Europe. You can’t sell what the potential buyer provided to you (at no monetary cost) back to the buyer. All you can do is sell back the field reports so that the “buyer” can make improvements and provide you back with (in other words sell you) a better product (it’s a barter, field testing for equipment). Once the product reaches sufficient “perfection”, the “buyer” will stop supplying the product to you for free, but at some nominal reduced cost (best-case scenario) because your returning field reports have lower value than they did initially, but you will still be sending the feedback because product improvement is in your core interests.

I guess to conclude, if you can build millions of FPV drones from Chinese stock available on Alibaba or Aliexpress (or whatever the platform is called), it has no translation whatsoever into manufacturing fairly advanced and advanced technology that you had zero grasp on few short years ago.

I should also add that you can often say by looking at the product whether it is a Ukrainian development/assembly or west-provided piece of equipment.

Here is another example of complete disconnect from reality:

IMG_5416.jpeg

I didn’t click the link, but my guess is (not a “I would bet my last” type of a guess, haha) it leads to the second article I cited above, in lemming interpretation, of course. We should also ask ourselves here, what is a “Ukrainian” drone? For example, dear Canadian media has their own interpretation of that too (another example of disconnect from reality):

IMG_5418.jpeg

Globe and Mail (via the archive):


To note, it is not a yellow press or a tabloid type of an outlet.

So an interpretation appears to be a form of convenience and is dictated by “Ukrainian ingenuity and success” (favourable) and “unprovoked and brutal Russian aggression” (unfavourable).


Since I have space to attach a couple more images, I am going to use it. This is a sentinel image (“stolen” from Clement Molin’s twitter post) showing some extremely precise Russian strikes (with gliding bombs) on tree lines in Hulyaipole area:

IMG_5414.jpeg

Janis Kluge’s analysis of the Russian recruitment numbers:

IMG_5412.jpeg

His article on Substack:


I can envision lemming interpretation of the headline as “Zomg, Russia recruits just over twenty thousand bags per month while Ukrainians are killing more than 30,000 of orcs every month”, “Victory is behind the corner”, etc.

To use the post as dump (ie, an opportunity to close some more tabs on my part), an excellent article by Jompy on stocks of Russian armour:


On Russia’s collapse:

 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
You are just deliberately attempting to pose NATO as in some sort of permanent opposition to Russia (which it never was before this ludicrous war).
Wait a minute, NATO was never in opposition to Russia before this war? Creation of NATO had the sole purpose of opposing the expansion of the then country with the capital in Moscow. Should I look for and cite relevant literature to prove this point? While the goals have much expanded since the creation of the Alliance, NATO is the opposition to Russia by definition, first and foremost. I do not think this is even debatable. It always was the opposition to Russia, it is today, and it will be after this ludicrous war is over.

Weird argument, mate.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
i get you, Ukraine is paying with their lives, but for what thou? no one asked them to fight, they would have sort for peace with their neighbourly brothers but they chose to fight for NATO and freedom. once in a lifetime opportunity to beat the Russians. go on then.
Laughing. They most certainly did not choose to fight for NATO. They chose to fight against the Russian invasion. Hundreds of thousands were willing to stand up for the cause.

I personally know Ukrainians who were willing to volunteer (men and women) in the early months of 2022, but were rejected (due to age, sex, or whatever other reasons). Funny enough though, they are in Canada today with no desire to go back whatsoever (absolute majority), and many of them would be scooped right off the street in Ukraine today and sent to the frontline if they were there (talking about males, obviously). Weird how things work. Ironically though, fanaticism of some leaves little space for having any reasonable conversation on the subject - delusion is set way too deep inside. I, personally, find it hard to reconcile these opinions with a complete and absolute refusal to even consider a possibility of coming back to the country. They, at the same time, also consider Ukraine to be the best country in the world; they don’t say it outright, but most discussions include a form of “but in Ukraine!”, be it about nature, politics, work/business, etc. Some, however, are extremely reasonable people. Some, naturally, oppose the war and support peace, some oppose the government, and so on. Regular people, most looking for their and their children’s livelihood first snd foremost. One guy I met is clearly here for the children; he goes back and forth, visits the country every so often (probably a couple of times a year), probably ex-military, saw some (hard, I would think) battle (I never talk to him about it), he doesn’t complain but simply states that here is not the same, etc - his home is clearly there, but rational thought prevails, as it should. He looks way too serious even with the kids at the playground (where we first met), which is unfortunate, always in some thought deep within. Such is life, I guess…

Anyway, thinking that they are dumb and freeloaders is ludicrous. Some are delusional, others are not - basically an average population of the planet Earth that happened to be going through some rather rough times at the moment. Brotherhood/sisterhood stuff is not up to you or me to determine. Most of the people I know from Ukraine do not see it the way you do.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wait a minute, NATO was never in opposition to Russia before this war? Creation of NATO had the sole purpose of opposing the expansion of the then country with the capital in Moscow. Should I look for and cite relevant literature to prove this point? While the goals have much expanded since the creation of the Alliance, NATO is the opposition to Russia by definition, first and foremost. I do not think this is even debatable. It always was the opposition to Russia, it is today, and it will be after this ludicrous war is over.

Weird argument, mate.
The Soviet Union was not Russia, regardless of where the capital was. NATO was a direct response to the Soviet Union, a very different country from modern-day Russia. This doesn't mean Russia doesn't have valid concerns with NATO expansion but the relationship between Russia and NATO are considerably different then they were between the USSR (and the WarPac) and NATO. Relations between Russia and NATO have deteriorated and Russia has a historic fear of NATO, that wasn't helped by NATO actions in Yugoslavia or Libya. Russia on the other hand has made it's own aggressive foreign policy moves against it's neighbors, some with substantial provocation (like the 888 war) and others without (like the current invasion). I don't think we can equate current tensions with the Cold War. While they're certainly not unrelated, the differences are vast, and there was at one time a possibility space where Russia would have amicable relations with both NATO as an organization and it's member states.

No, they chose to fight for their soverengty and freedom as most countries would who were invaded if they had the capability. I think you will find that most ethnic Ukrainians actually don't like Russia and that is why they left when the USSR broke up, so neighbourly brothers is a ridiculous description.
This part specifically I would contest. I think pre-'14 Ukrainians had a fairly mixed opinion of Russia, one that varied over time, and was not singularly negative. The events of '14 split the opinion along harder lines, and the current invasion, pushed the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians across to the side that don't like Russia. But even so, the problem with Russian sympathizers in Ukraine persists. Today they are fewer than ever before, but they're the trace of earlier attitudes. I would also be careful with taking the attitudes of Ukrainians who emigrate to the west as a representative sample. A big part of what led to the current conflict is that Ukraine was a country divided for quite a long time. The current war has united Ukraine against Russia (yet another reason why this war was a mistake for Russia).

i get you, Ukraine is paying with their lives, but for what thou? no one asked them to fight, they would have sort for peace with their neighbourly brothers but they chose to fight for NATO and freedom. once in a lifetime opportunity to beat the Russians. go on then.
This is flat out not true. Their government asked them to fight, to defend against an invasion by a neighboring country. Some chose to fight, some didn't, but overall Ukrainians showed a willingness to serve their country and fight against Russia. This attitude began to shift as the war dragged on and turned into a meatgrinder, but let's be clear - this shift is not because of any brotherly feelings towards Russia or Russians. It's because they're tired of the war, upset by the corruption in both the government in general and the TCC in particular, and because of increasing feelings that the AFU are mismanaging the war effort. Let's be clear, if a vote was to be had on the issues in this war, with no threat of hostilities, there's no doubt about which way Ukrainians would vote. It's only with the threat of a never-ending war, the fatigue setting in, death and destruction being a regular reality, and the uncertainty about the future, that's leading public opinion to slowly shift towards an accommodation with Russia. Even now public opinion isn't fully there, that's just the trajectory it's on.
 
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