NATO

[Beltrami2005]

USA has become an enemy with its recent behavior and its time to take the gloves off.

Greenland is part of a European nation and is not for sale. I hope the EU responds finally in a language trump understands. There are many levers we can use.

This goes from counter tariffs, to militarisation of Greenland. Sale of US bonds and then there is also the nuclear option...

USA imports 91% of its insulin from the EU. I think most are not even aware that we hold a nuclear option.

 

[crest]

USA has become an enemy with its recent behavior and its time to take the gloves off.

Greenland is part of a European nation and is not for sale. I hope the EU responds finally in a language trump understands. There are many levers we can use.

This goes from counter tariffs, to militarisation of Greenland. Sale of US bonds and then there is also the nuclear option...

USA imports 91% of its insulin from the EU. I think most are not even aware that we hold a nuclear option.

What do you mean nuclear option? You not thinking of nuking Washington over Greenland are you? Hard pass on that option
Don't get me wrong I believe NATO should defend even against a fellow member. But I also accept that military to military it's a no win option even. There is however the bluff simply deploying troops there to see how far the u.s will go. Block there ships and I guess the same with troops. Or ignore them? Is that a feasible thing just ignore u.s troops and Cary on as usual? Wouldn't that be something.

A more appropriate response would be things like stopping support of u.s policys like sanctions, dump u.s Treasuries, refuse to acknowledge the seizure so it can be reclaimed later.

Threaten to seize u.s bases and equipment in Europe (don't actually steal there equipment they will retaliate)
Cancel f-35 purchase and other u.s weapons if possible.

There is plenty of way to retaliate that are possible and would give the u.s pause. The more problematic issue is it is a issue at all. This is a major problem for n.a.t.o and frankly for relations with the u.s overall.

 

[Beltrami2005]

What do you mean nuclear option? You not thinking of nuking Washington over Greenland are you? Hard pass on that option
Don't get me wrong I believe NATO should defend even against a fellow member. But I also accept that military to military it's a no win option even. There is however the bluff simply deploying troops there to see how far the u.s will go. Block there ships and I guess the same with troops. Or ignore them? Is that a feasible thing just ignore u.s troops and Cary on as usual? Wouldn't that be something.

A more appropriate response would be things like stopping support of u.s policys like sanctions, dump u.s Treasuries, refuse to acknowledge the seizure so it can be reclaimed later.

Threaten to seize u.s bases and equipment in Europe (don't actually steal there equipment they will retaliate)
Cancel f-35 purchase and other u.s weapons if possible.

There is plenty of way to retaliate that are possible and would give the u.s pause. The more problematic issue is it is a issue at all. This is a major problem for n.a.t.o and frankly for relations with the u.s overall.

nuclear option is slang for a hard method used as last resort. In that case insulin exports to USA. USA gets 91% of its Insulin from Europe. If the EU stops that export the USA would fall into a massive crisis with no way out.

Spain already cancelled its F-35 order, because USA is a hostile force. NATO in that regard is in its final days anyways. Defense must be thought european.

 

[crest]

nuclear option is slang for a hard method used as last resort. In that case insulin exports to USA. USA gets 91% of its Insulin from Europe. If the EU stops that export the USA would fall into a massive crisis with no way out.

Spain already cancelled its F-35 order, because USA is a hostile force. NATO in that regard is in its final days anyways. Defense must be thought european.

Im a big believer in m.a.d and that it works. If one nuk goes flying whoever used it dies there pets there religion does there internet search history there countries. Thats the deal thats how we keep them from being used.

Fight a different way, if you have to lose a war better it to be a non nuclear war or the world.

 

[John Fedup]

nuclear option is slang for a hard method used as last resort. In that case insulin exports to USA. USA gets 91% of its Insulin from Europe. If the EU stops that export the USA would fall into a massive crisis with no way out.

Spain already cancelled its F-35 order, because USA is a hostile force. NATO in that regard is in its final days anyways. Defense must be thought european.

Sadly Europe can’t get its shit together on a united effort to manufacture 5/6 Gen fighters, two programs, GCAP and FCAS. Looks like FCAS is imploding. Thus ditching the F-35 isn’t without a decent alternative isn’t viable albeit LM’s upgrades are late and overpriced.

 

[hauritz]

Sadly Europe can’t get its shit together on a united effort to manufacture 5/6 Gen fighters, two programs, GCAP and FCAS. Looks like FCAS is imploding. Thus ditching the F-35 isn’t without a decent alternative isn’t viable albeit LM’s upgrades are late and overpriced.

I have a feeling this might all change. Regardless of how this pans out it is clear that the US can no longer be completely trusted. Even after the Trump era ends there is always the possibility of another Trump-like leader gaining power. Europe should now start to wean itself off American produced military gear. Other American allies may also follow suit. The US arms industry will not be happy about this.

 

[Ananda]

Looks like FCAS is imploding. Thus ditching the F-35 isn’t without a decent alternative isn’t viable albeit LM’s upgrades are late and overpriced.

Offcourse Euro land can do it. If Turkiye can do their own program with KAAN, off course in paper Euro land can do that. Most likely with GCAP as French seems will go alone with FCAS if they can not sort it out the difference with German. Rafale recent export success just bolden French to go alone if they have too.

However I got your meaning, to compete in number with F-35 or other US projects in future, all program including Turkiye KAAN should be in one unified program. For that, I also not see thar ever happen.

 

[Ananda]

Collective punishment to Euro land on Greenland begin.

 

[John Fedup]

I have a feeling this might all change. Regardless of how this pans out it is clear that the US can no longer be completely trusted. Even after the Trump era ends there is always the possibility of another Trump-like leader gaining power. Europe should now start to wean itself off American produced military gear. Other American allies may also follow suit. The US arms industry will not be happy about this.

Agree, the US has damaged itself. Big opportunities for Euro, Japanese, and SK defence vendors.

 

[John Fedup]

Collective punishment to Euro land on Greenland begin.View attachment 54190

Just another wake up call that it is time for the G20 sans US, Russia, and China to come together as a coalition to counter the three problem nations, especially the first two.

 

[Beltrami2005]

Sadly Europe can’t get its shit together on a united effort to manufacture 5/6 Gen fighters, two programs, GCAP and FCAS. Looks like FCAS is imploding. Thus ditching the F-35 isn’t without a decent alternative isn’t viable albeit LM’s upgrades are late and overpriced.

Well and here we are. Spain ditched the F-35.

USA is as hostile as Russia. What value has the F-35 for Spain when USA comes to take the Canary Islands as they come for Greenland and Iceland now? For Spain to use the F-35 we would need to throw the entire avionics and all computer systems out. Which makes the plane pretty much useless.

 

[Ananda]

Just another wake up call that it is time for the G20 sans US, Russia, and China to come together as a coalition to counter the three problem nations, especially the first two.

Joke asside, due remember this World work through trade and that need robust financial market. US still control more then half of Global financial market, while China control close to 30% manufacturing output plus industrial value chain for many Global South and Euro industries. While for Global South big players, Russia represent alternative cheaper source of energy for their industries.

Not something that the rest of G20 can shake it off and neglected for foreseable future. Heck even their MIC still have something that need to be sources from China, US and even some materials from Russia (eventough much less) to produce the 'indigenous' defense items.

 

[Beltrami2005]

View attachment 54193


Joke asside, due remember this World work through trade and that need robust financial market. US still control more then half of Global financial market, while China control close to 30% manufacturing output plus industrial value chain for many Global South and Euro industries. While for Global South big players, Russia represent alternative cheaper source of energy for their industries.

Not something that the rest of G20 can shake it off and neglected for foreseable future. Heck even their MIC still have something that need to be sources from China, US and even some materials from Russia (eventough much less) to produce the 'indigenous' defense items.

It is laughable to believe Europe would ever surrender under Russia. Europe produces 91% of worlds Insulin supply. Basicly 15% of americas population life depends on us to keep them alive. And thats just one factor.

 

[John Fedup]

It is laughable to believe Europe would ever surrender under Russia. Europe produces 91% of worlds Insulin supply. Basicly 15% of americas population life depends on us to keep them alive. And thats just one factor.

You might want to investigate who the 15% are. Doubt the MAGA crowd care about insulin deliveries to them.

 

[John Fedup]

View attachment 54193


Joke asside, due remember this World work through trade and that need robust financial market. US still control more then half of Global financial market, while China control close to 30% manufacturing output plus industrial value chain for many Global South and Euro industries. While for Global South big players, Russia represent alternative cheaper source of energy for their industries.

Not something that the rest of G20 can shake it off and neglected for foreseable future. Heck even their MIC still have something that need to be sources from China, US and even some materials from Russia (eventough much less) to produce the 'indigenous' defense items.

I think US instability and Trump’s screwing with the FED will lessen US market share wrt finance eventually albeit China will be the primary beneficiary. As for the MIC supply chain issue, it will indeed take time but it is underway. Question is, will there be sufficient time?

 

[Redshift]

You might want to investigate who the 15% are. Doubt the MAGA crowd care about insulin deliveries to them.

Without being controversial, type 2 diabetes is prevelant amongst older obese people ........ Many many MAGA supporters fall firmly into this category.

 

[Todjaeger]

It is laughable to believe Europe would ever surrender under Russia. Europe produces 91% of worlds Insulin supply. Basicly 15% of americas population life depends on us to keep them alive. And thats just one factor.

I would strongly suggest that one double check numbers prior to throwing claims around.

Three manufacturers are together responsible for over 90% of global insulin production. These are the US company Eli Lily which has multiple manufacturing sites in the US, France, Italy, China and IIRC had facilities in Russia. Next is the Danish company Novo Nordisk which has facilities in Denmark, the US, China, and again might still have facilities in Russia. The third major world producer of insulin is the French pharmaceutical Sanofi, which has a major facility near Frankfurt in Germany. Now I am not certain what the specific percentages of world insulin production are associated with which company, or how much insulin is produced at different manufacturing facilities operated by these companies, but I would consider it unlikely that the US manufacturing facilities would produce little to no insulin for either Eli Lily or Novo Nordisk, especially since Eli Lily does produce insulin in facilities in the US. In short, whilst the 'Big Three' do indeed supply about 90% of the global insulin supply, these companies are not all based in Europe, and they all have manufacturing facilities outside of Europe as well, meaning that claims of Europe producing 91% of the global insulin supply are likely false.

Secondly, the claim that 15% of the US population is dependent on Europe to remain alive is likewise incorrect, assuming one is referring to insulin dependency. The current US population is ~348 mil., of these some ~37 mil. are diabetic, or a little over 10% of the US population. However, most diabetics in the US do not use insulin, only about 8.4 mil. people in the US are insulin dependent, which works out to only ~2.4% of the US population. That is still a significant number of people, but no where near the percentages claimed, never mind the claimed dependence on Europe as a source for insulin.

I mention all this because there is little point in putting forth an argument that is heavily reliant upon 'facts' which are actually rather divergent from reality.

Without being controversial, type 2 diabetes is prevelant amongst older obese people ........ Many many MAGA supporters fall firmly into this category.

Nothing controversial about such a statement, albeit not entirely accurate either. More accurately, Type 2 diabetes (the non-insulin dependent kind, usually...) often occurs in obese people, and sometimes in older people who are not obese. The major thing with Type 2 though is that it can usually be managed without insulin, though sometimes Type 2 diabetics become insulin dependent later on in life.