Venezuela Update

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I know it has nothing to do with crimes, it probably has more to do with distraction.

It is ironic, considering 47s legal issues, and that he has just pardoned a former South American leader who was serving a prison sentence for drug related crimes, that this is the justification being used.

What it does show is the US military and intelligence organisations are still highly professional and capable, irrespective of questions if competence at the executive level.
When was his criminal record used as justification?

Like invading Ukraine?

We agree in one thing: morality, like International Law, never had anything to do with actions.
You were incoherent before. Now it's just senseless babbling.

And the USA has no credibility at all if it calls interference by any country in the affairs of another illegal . . . .
Legal? What's any of this have to do with legality?

And I am asking seriously, just in case this prompts some "because the op was illegal lmao" response.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

It is for oil, the talk on Maduro's ilegal activities, using Venezuella by anti US countries, etc are just another babbling excuses that no one going to buy. Except from those that voted Trump or from those who'se ilegal actions (under international law) need suckling for Trump support.
 

crest

Active Member
Legal? What's any of this have to do with legality?

And I am asking seriously, just in case this prompts some "because the op was illegal lmao" response.
Well as far as international law it opens the door to Tiwan for china. Something I'm sure they will notice, degrades the argument about Ukraine and weakens the rules based upon order the world had operated on to the benefit of the United States btw. So numbers ways it practically and diplomatically can have unwanted repercussions for America.

Domestically it's if not clearly then very arguably a issue of the Constitutional authority to do so. That also has unwanted domestic and Infact international consequences for the u,s as far as trust and creditably is concerned.

Yes things like this are done in the real world but the frequency and way there done in particular are also a part of that overall discussion.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #206
And the USA has no credibility at all if it calls interference by any country in the affairs of another illegal . . . .
To be fair, it already didn't. Personally I find the war crime situation with the boat strikes more concerning. Another basically illegal regime change by the US hardly changes anything.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
There‘s no international law at this point and the era of smaller countries surviving without problems also has come to an end.

There still is. Just one set for the rest of the world and another set of exceptions for the superpowers.

This is not a new development and has always been the case. So surprise is unwarranted.

But to be fair, a new line was crossed, that being an explicit operation to capture a sitting President. One can argue about his legitimacy but in practice he is still the head of state.
 

crest

Active Member
The position of firearms and devices is next level overreach. I mean your charged with possessing items in your own residence, in another country and I can only presume legally owning said devices as I doubt it's illigal for the president to own military hardware tho I have no actual idea to be fair. The arm of the "law" is long indeed. Ridiculously long

Does anyone else feel like we're getting to Soviet Union levels of bullshit here? Or perhaps 1964 doublethink
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
But to be fair, a new line was crossed, that being an explicit operation to capture a sitting President. One can argue about his legitimacy but in practice he is still the head of state.
US already open this with Noriega, then Saddam now Maduro. I don't think in sense it is a new line to be crossed. However it is opening more precedences line to be follow by other big power. Russia off course try with Zelensky but botched it up.

Now I bet some planning guys in Beijing try to figure it out on how to force DPP administration in Taipei to be kick out and replace with more 'reasonable' Koumintang. Perhaps figures it is more economically and militarily better then invade and getting involve with protracted war in Taiwan, like Russia face in Ukraine.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

It is for oil, the talk on Maduro's ilegal activities, using Venezuella by anti US countries, etc are just another babbling excuses that no one going to buy. Except from those that voted Trump or from those who'se ilegal actions (under international law) need suckling for Trump support.
Well, at least he admitted that he want to take over and control the oil industry of Venezuela and replace Madurodam with a puppet regime.
Trump: 'Gaan ons bezighouden met olie-industrie Venezuela en opvolger Maduro'

As we all know this has nothing to do with fighting organized crime or spreading freedom and democracy.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
US already open this with Noriega, then Saddam now Maduro. I don't think in sense it is a new line to be crossed. However it is opening more precedences line to be follow by other big power. Russia off course try with Zelensky but botched it up.
I see it slightly differently. While Noriega and Saddam was a target, their main priority then was not just to remove them from power but also change the entire regime/introduce democracy etc, which includes destroying the entire political structure and military capacity.

What is curious this time the goal was Maduro himself and his wife, no one else. That was the first and key priority. To achieve this, they had to suppress air defense, destroy military elements that can impede that goal. But from what I can tell, it wasn't total destruction and most importantly, they left the political structure intact. The vice president, defense minister etc, everyone was not taken out.

It is being framed entirely as a law enforcement operation. Leaving the existing political structure intact and Trump apparently not interested in helping Machado to get power means... he isn't interested in who runs the country as long as they don't create trouble (Rubio talked with Vice President Delcy Rodriguez, Machado says Edmundo González Urrutia, who technically won the last election) and allow US oil interest to come in.


 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Gonna be wild if he goes after Colombia next. War on Drugs takes on a literally meaning with Trump.

Trump warns Colombian President Petro: "He does have to watch his ass”
From CNN's Alejandra Jaramillo

President Donald Trump issued a sharp warning to Colombian President Gustavo Petro on Saturday, citing concerns about drug trafficking in the wake of the US capture of Venezuela’s leader Nicolás Maduro in a large-scale military operation.

When asked about Petro’s recent comments that he was unconcerned about any fallout from the operation, Trump responded directly during a press conference at Mar-a-Lago.

“He has factories where he makes cocaine,” Trump said. “He’s making cocaine and they’re sending it into the United States,” adding, “So he does have to watch his ass.”

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
But from what I can tell, it wasn't total destruction and most importantly, they left the political structure intact. The vice president, defense minister etc, everyone was not taken out.
Yes, practically the regime still operational and so far in control of Venezuella. This raise suspicions that some in regime practically sacrifice Maduro to keep the regime in power.

There're lot off celebration from Overseas Venezuellan, but mostly are anti Maduro's-Chavez regime to begin with. So far no increase on anti regime movement inside Venezuella, in fact the governors call support to incumbent regime.

Thus interesting how Trump going to get deals for US oil interest if the regime still the same. Noriega and Saddam follow regime change, will this only President change ? Something that Russia rumours also try to do in their botched operation in Kyiv. Take out Zelensky and hope someone more 'reasonable' can come to take over on bargaining table. I'm currently sense this is what Trump also try to force bargain with.


Despite the mainstream media put, and her tough talk, she shown the door for negotiation open.

Add:


Maduro in NY DEA office, this increasingly shown not regime change operation. More get rid off President that Trump does not like. Yes the Colombia President should take note on this.
 
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KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
I see it slightly differently. While Noriega and Saddam was a target, their main priority then was not just to remove them from power but also change the entire regime/introduce democracy etc, which includes destroying the entire political structure and military capacity.

What is curious this time the goal was Maduro himself and his wife, no one else. That was the first and key priority. To achieve this, they had to suppress air defense, destroy military elements that can impede that goal. But from what I can tell, it wasn't total destruction and most importantly, they left the political structure intact. The vice president, defense minister etc, everyone was not taken out.

It is being framed entirely as a law enforcement operation. Leaving the existing political structure intact and Trump apparently not interested in helping Machado to get power means... he isn't interested in who runs the country as long as they don't create trouble (Rubio talked with Vice President Delcy Rodriguez, Machado says Edmundo González Urrutia, who technically won the last election) and allow US oil interest to come in.


I’d say that it all depends on where things go from here. It’s not yet clear at all what follows next. The regime (that many have already pronounced changed or, at the very least, changing) is basically intact and in charge. It also looks like the very regime sold Maduro to the US (perhaps as an impediment in coming to some sort of a deal with the Americans). As I see it, shit can break loose rather quickly here and stay loose for a long while destabilizing the entire region and the US “security” requiring their involvement and so on. Or just a failed state that is more than a splinter, again, requiring further attention (and no certain outcome in sight, to be frank). I mean we all know how this can work from history (many of us saw some of it unfolding in “real life” rather than the text books and essays).

Euros reaction is pretty funny here too, but completely expected. I will add some of the “main characters” later on.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Well as far as international law it opens the door to Tiwan for china.
Oh man you're right! China definitely didn't plan to invade Taiwan but now that this thing happened it's basically obligated to!

People who honestly claim Russia invaded Ukraine because someone else did something remotely comparable and they felt a higher calling to balance and cancel any hypocrisy really needs to get themselves checked.


The fact alone that you can twist good and evil, means that either you don't care about international law, or you'd really just rather Maduro stay in power.
Because any sane take would necessarily involve a key element of dictators = bad.
 
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KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Also, today is marking “the day of bad takes” on social media, a first in a long time. All kinds of experts had contributed to the mess. It’s incredible. The “axis”, swapping Venezuela for Ukraine, Russian air defense does not work, etc. So much nonsense.

IMG_3376.jpeg

Perhaps, the “axis” doesn’t exist? It’s also funny how the members of the axis get added and subtracted depending on the happenings of the day.

That post by the open intel is rather funny though. Imagine Iranian “defensive systems” guaranteeing something in the backyard of the USA that they could not guarantee in Iran itself.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The US seems to have learned one lesson after their Iraq debacle, don’t shitcan an entire government/military infrastructure. Disbanding the Iraqi army gave rise to civil war followed by ISIS. An expensive military occupation in Venezuela lasting a decade or more won’t be an election winner for the GOP.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
^ I think it depends on the developments yet to take place and how the basically intact, but with the vacuum to fill, remaining structure proceeds. So far, it appears to be the very early (and premature, though could it be more premature?) version of this:

 
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