6th Generation Fighters Projects

[hauritz]

Perhaps China is sucking the US into proceeding with F/A XX thinking this will impede the F-47 as the drunk running the Pentagon claims. Just to be clear, IMHO F/A XX is absolutely necessary assuming CVNs are still deemed desirable.

We are in uncertain times. We have seen drone and AI technology evolve at such a rate that we can no longer make any accurate predictions about what will be relevant in 10 or 20 years time. CVNs would definitely fall into that category.

On the otherhand the Defence Department is apparantly concerned about the industrial bases ability to produce two major next-gen fighter aircraft programs at the same time.

Well then, it is claimed that a third design (6th gen?) has flown in China.

Various claims being made (CCA, naval fighter) but nothing clear for now. Perhaps following the pattern of the other disclosures, more photos might appear soon.

View attachment 53247

Thay China seems to be making so little effort to hide these designs makes me think they are just demonstrators. and possibly not even the ones they want to progress with. When I see these things on the ground they really don't look that stealthy. With this one they don't seem to have made any effort to hide that third air scoop.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

And here we go.

View attachment 53248

Earlier J-50 was speculated to have rotating rudder but it didn't turn out that way.

Now with this new 3rd jet it is speculated to have variable geometry wing. If true then it leaves very less area for control surfaces, only ailerons, no flaps.

Some diagrams are also being made around guesses.




If this is for Navy then such high sweep body may need canards for low speed approach.

On belly there seems to be 6 panels to be part of IWB door, probably for BVRAAMs.
And then 5 shorter panels behind, probably for CCMs.
It is unclear how would they open -
- individually
- 1:1
- 2:1 bi-fold

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Some new graphics render has come out by NG for F/A-XX.
It loos like a delta wing, with 2 rudders, only top flat intakes with middle separator.
Dark & difficult to see under wing & belly. There seems to be SWB & IWB.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

The new family of missiles that MBDA will integrate on GCAP and FCAS now has a name: STRATUS.

 

[John Fedup]

Some information regarding the France-Germany dispute wrt workshare on FCAS. The options for a walkout by either party don’t look good. Agree, Germany joining GCAP isn’t really beneficial for the current GCAP partners and a German Swedish collaborator action would take more time. Given France’s political situation, going alone will be difficult even if Spain and Belgium stay on board. The other obstacle is France’s need for a future naval jet.

Germany Considers Split From France On Next Generation Fighter

Disagreements over Future Combat Air System workshare mean Germany is also looking at teaming up with the UK or Sweden on its future crewed fighter. Disagreements over Future Combat Air System workshare mean Germany is also looking at teaming up with the UK or Sweden on its future crewed fighter.

www.twz.com

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Some information regarding the France-Germany dispute wrt workshare on FCAS. The options for a walkout by either party don’t look good. Agree, Germany joining GCAP isn’t really beneficial for the current GCAP partners and a German Swedish collaborator action would take more time. Given France’s political situation, going alone will be difficult even if Spain and Belgium stay on board. The other obstacle is France’s need for a future naval jet.

Germany Considers Split From France On Next Generation Fighter

Disagreements over Future Combat Air System workshare mean Germany is also looking at teaming up with the UK or Sweden on its future crewed fighter. Disagreements over Future Combat Air System workshare mean Germany is also looking at teaming up with the UK or Sweden on its future crewed fighter.

www.twz.com

I don't think they will actually stop the program and I really don't see France or Germany leaving it.
They simply have no other option, GCAP workshare is basically figured out (and Airbus really need a protagonist role) so Germany joining GCAP is to be excluded. Or at least extremely unlikely.

France, at the same time, has the know how but can't sustain a 6th gen program alone.
Everyone knows it and Airbus of course demanded a higher workshare than Dassault expected.

Dassault, frightened by the prospect of giving up its expertise or at least losing its leading role in fighter jets compared to Airbus, is trying to raise a fuss.
They are probably foreseeing a future where they end up being absorbed in Airbus...as a worst case.

The "swedish option" is honestly not really serious.

So... interesting to see what'll happen...

 

[John Fedup]

France may need two programs, FCAS with Germany with a lessened role for Dassault and another with Dassault and another foreign partner in a CATOBAR program. Only one likely partner I can think of and that country is a Rafale customer. Sadly, both can be a real pita.

 

[Terran]

France doesn’t want to make that kind of investment. The goal with FCAS is to have one airframe that they can use from carriers and from land bases. That’s why Dassault wants to keep a strong presence in the program. So France has its independence as a CATOBAR fighter maker.
Breaking up the program into two would significantly increase the cost factor in France whom is already chafing about budget.

Farther who could partner with France for a naval fighter? There are all of Three Navies that have catapult-assisted take-off but arrested recovery type carriers. The United States, France and now China. Longer term India’s Vishal project hopes for one but Indian procurement and development… The program doesn’t have a proper timetable. India is probably the only country who might be interested but it’s so nebulous.

 

[seaspear]

Would Canada be an option as a partner in this?

 

[John Fedup]

Would Canada be an option as a partner in this?

No! Might be a potential GCAP export customer though.

 

[John Fedup]

France doesn’t want to make that kind of investment. The goal with FCAS is to have one airframe that they can use from carriers and from land bases. That’s why Dassault wants to keep a strong presence in the program. So France has its independence as a CATOBAR fighter maker.
Breaking up the program into two would significantly increase the cost factor in France whom is already chafing about budget.

Farther who could partner with France for a naval fighter? There are all of Three Navies that have catapult-assisted take-off but arrested recovery type carriers. The United States, France and now China. Longer term India’s Vishal project hopes for one but Indian procurement and development… The program doesn’t have a proper timetable. India is probably the only country who might be interested but it’s so nebulous.

I think France’s need for a naval fighter is a big issue and a prime reason for Germany’s disenchantment with FCAS. There are extra costs for a naval fighter design as well as performance differences. WRT other navies, I think India will eventually go CATOBAR in the future (perhaps distant future).

 

[Ananda]

Want to put this Yesterday, but forgot. Seems this is become hot topic in Chinese Enthusiast forum yesterday. The photographer being detained because he take the picture on restricted area, but not before he manage to put this online. Seems China do still have problem controling their online communities too.

 

[Ananda]

The FCAS crisis deepens: Dassault considers developing the sixth-generation fighter for the French Air Force on its own

The Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program, intended to develop a sixth-generation fighter to replace the French Rafale and the European Eurofighter

www.zona-militar.com

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/berlin-weighs-developing-fighter-jet-without-dassault-says-source-2025-09-26/

Seems the divorce between Dasault and Airbus on FCAS getting more serious. However seems Airbus also did not want to join British and Sweden on the competing project. So could it be 3 project for Euro ? 4 if you put Turkiye KAAN in the equation.

 

[Terran]

There would be a huge question point on cost for a third independent project only in Airbus’s hands and Germany.
Airbus as a partner for Tempest would face the fact that much of the development roadmap is in progress. The project roadmap objective IOC is 2035. So Airbus would have a hell of a time strong arming its way in and would likely be left with the crumbs of the program.
FCAS is more lenient on that end which is why they hoped for a stronger position, but with France being France.
Unless Airbus could find someone else to partner with its hard to start over.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Airbus isn't likely to get whole significant program workshare. It's been allocated.
However there are other ways stuff could be made in germany for the program. Either through german located subsidiaries of the main contractors. It could be second source etc, and bits and pieces that have fallen through the gaps. They could also do final assembly for german planes. The key would be germany committing to buying planes, and the value of those planes and work to be a positive for all partners involved. If Germany committed to a 100+ plane buy, then there would be incentives to get that to happen. This is what Dassault was basically offering Germany anyway.

Seems the divorce between Dasault and Airbus on FCAS getting more serious. However seems Airbus also did not want to join British and Sweden on the competing project. So could it be 3 project for Euro ? 4 if you put Turkiye KAAN in the equation.

Not sure if KAAN is really a 6th gen program. Doubtful of Germany running their own program.

The 6th gen programs are all quite different. They aren't interchangeable.

FCAS is a large, long range platform. That isn't going to appeal to everyone. Germany may find it doesn't want or need a fighter like that. The european partners in FCAS are looking at extending projection beyond their immediate borders and meeting the threat in an air/sea gap.

 

[koxinga]

The only other European option on the table could possibly be with the Swedes, on the F-Series FCAS program. As it stands, it is a significant financial risk for Sweden, even in these days of heighten defence spending.

Also large long range might not be a major factor for Sweden, given their traditional preference for defensive operations, prioritizing austere runway operations etc.

 

[John Fedup]

Airbus isn't likely to get whole significant program workshare. It's been allocated.
However there are other ways stuff could be made in germany for the program. Either through german located subsidiaries of the main contractors. It could be second source etc, and bits and pieces that have fallen through the gaps. They could also do final assembly for german planes. The key would be germany committing to buying planes, and the value of those planes and work to be a positive for all partners involved. If Germany committed to a 100+ plane buy, then there would be incentives to get that to happen. This is what Dassault was basically offering Germany anyway.


Not sure if KAAN is really a 6th gen program. Doubtful of Germany running their own program.

The 6th gen programs are all quite different. They aren't interchangeable.

FCAS is a large, long range platform. That isn't going to appeal to everyone. Germany may find it doesn't want or need a fighter like that. The european partners in FCAS are looking at extending projection beyond their immediate borders and meeting the threat in an air/sea gap.

Not sure if FCAS is really a long range platform compared to the F-47 or GCAP since AFAIK it is the basis for a naval fighter as well and thus is likely to be smaller. Perhaps Dassault has something else in mind for the naval application. In any event, Germany and France (and Spain) military aviation will suffer if no agreement is reached.

 

[John Fedup]

The only other European option on the table could possibly be with the Swedes, on the F-Series FCAS program. As it stands, it is a significant financial risk for Sweden, even in these days of heighten defence spending.

Also large long range might not be a major factor for Sweden, given their traditional preference for defensive operations, prioritizing austere runway operations etc.

I guess it is a significant risk for Sweden if Saab exits the fighter business as well.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Not sure if FCAS is really a long range platform compared to the F-47 or GCAP since AFAIK it is the basis for a naval fighter as well and thus is likely to be smaller. Perhaps Dassault has something else in mind for the naval application. In any event, Germany and France (and Spain) military aviation will suffer if no agreement is reached.

I meant GCAP. Man these acronyms are a janky. The currently shown specs seem to indicate something more approaching F-111 sized. It is described as having twice the wing area of a F-15 and over a third longer than a Typhoon.

GCAP: a big fighter designed for Pacific (and Australian) distances | The Strategist

BAE Systems and its Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) partners pulled off a coup of technology theatre at the Farnborough air show in July, unveiling a new design for their GCAP figher, in full-scale model ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Naval planes don't have to be small. F-111 and P8 aren't small. Large aircraft have operated from carriers, including a C130. Approach speeds are probably more important than size. Drones seem to be eating the smaller aircraft space pretty quickly. With everyone having long range precision stealth weapons I'm not sure short range fighters make much sense.

Dassault hasn't really told us anything other than they want to build 80% of it. I presume it will be very much like a stealthy Rafale. As if they are building it, that would seem to be the most cost effective route and fit in with their current platforms and support systems.

We don't even really know what makes up the magical 6th gen other than being designed by countries that already operate 5th gen fighters. Supercruise seems to be out, long range weapons and sensors in.

 

[John Fedup]

I will put this article in this thread as the likely aircraft needed for a arsenal air to air missile jet is a B-21 or a cheaper derivative if it is to arrive anytime soon. The other questions are missile production to feed it and the money to pay for this.

Flying Wing Arsenal Plane Packed With Air-To-Air Missiles Eyed By USAF: Report