Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
NZ needs a higher tax take, capital gains, wealth tax, inheritance tax, higher personal tax, and the retirement age needs to be increased to 67 at a minimum with gradual increase to 70 over a 10 year period, new roads need to be tolled.

We need to secure our future, get back to a world class health and education systems, have secure and affordable housing for everyone, and we need secure energy which needs to be a combination of renewables, geo thermal and more hydro and we need a defence force that is small yet modern but able to respond to humanitarian and natural disasters and patrol our part of the world.
For reference we had the lowest persnal tax rates in the OECD before the recent tax cuts. We must also look to our very economic system which was introducded in the mid 1980's at which point we were in the top ten GDP per person and ar now 24th and heading down. ( 40th on a GDP ppp Basis)
However fixing everthing would be in vain if we lose our sovereignty by not having a defence force that can defend us from outside aggression and we lose our freedom because we fail to protect it.
 

Xthenaki

Active Member
I dont think that we will see the Mogamis in the short term - The GOD allocated in this years budget 650 Million dollars to enhance the capability and extend the life of the existing anzac frigates. We may have to wait for the Magamis "with a long sigh" or at least until the Aust/Japanese contract gathers momentum.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I dont think that we will see the Mogamis in the short term - The GOD allocated in this years budget 650 Million dollars to enhance the capability and extend the life of the existing anzac frigates. We may have to wait for the Magamis "with a long sigh" or at least until the Aust/Japanese contract gathers momentum.
Not to mention that the NZGov't plans have called for the Kiwi ANZAC-class frigates to get replaced in the mid-2030's... I would hope that the RNZN and gov't have at least started the planning stages of the procurement programme, because it can easily take a decade or more to go from the ideas first getting written down, to an actual, in service replacement platform.
 

Hawkeye69

Member
Brilliant decision to buy the MR-60R, buying the Romeo means we will be operating the world’s premier naval helicopter, brilliant decision.
The other brilliant decision was going with Airbus A321 XLR and that was really a no brainer.

Frigate wise I have heard the only one been considered is the Japanese one the Mogami class as per what Australia have just signed up to, a lot on here think the Babcock AH140 would be in the running but it was not, communality with Australia is the priority with the frigates, the replacements will be like for like so only 2.

I would not expect the OPV’s to be replaced, not with manned ships anyway, the SOPV yes and that will likely be two fold offering both SOPV and hydrographic work, but the current 2x OPV’s will likely be unmanned platforms, similar to the USN Sea Hunter.

Next announcement could likely be for the V-Bat UAV’s, were demonstrated here in November last year, proven platform and proven in Ukraine to not be prone to Russian jamming devices, it’s VTOL ability is very well regarded.
 

Hawkeye69

Member
Australia to receive 3 Upgraded Mogamis 1st - 2029(service 2030), 2nd - 2031?(2032?), 3rd - 2033(service 2034).

Perfect timing for NZ deliveries of the same ship from Japan in 2034, 2035 or 2036.
100% perfect timing and I would be confident both our PM and Australia’s meet up in Queenstown did discuss us tagging onto this purchase.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Brilliant decision to buy the MR-60R, buying the Romeo means we will be operating the world’s premier naval helicopter, brilliant decision.
The other brilliant decision was going with Airbus A321 XLR and that was really a no brainer.

Frigate wise I have heard the only one been considered is the Japanese one the Mogami class as per what Australia have just signed up to, a lot on here think the Babcock AH140 would be in the running but it was not, communality with Australia is the priority with the frigates, the replacements will be like for like so only 2.

I would not expect the OPV’s to be replaced, not with manned ships anyway, the SOPV yes and that will likely be two fold offering both SOPV and hydrographic work, but the current 2x OPV’s will likely be unmanned platforms, similar to the USN Sea Hunter.

Next announcement could likely be for the V-Bat UAV’s, were demonstrated here in November last year, proven platform and proven in Ukraine to not be prone to Russian jamming devices, it’s VTOL ability is very well regarded.
The issue with replacing OPV’s with unscrewed option is that they then cannot carry out the primary jobs of an OPV.

How do you perform SAR without crew? How do you perform boarding operations without a crew?

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Hawkeye, I wouldn’t rule Type 31 out yet, the RNZN has just bought a stockpile of the primary SAM used by Type 31 rather then upgrading ANZAC to fire ESSM which would have more sense if considering a ship using US derived systems and equipment.
 

Hawkeye69

Member
The issue with replacing OPV’s with unscrewed option is that they then cannot carry out the primary jobs of an OPV.

How do you perform SAR without crew? How do you perform boarding operations without a crew?

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Hawkeye, I wouldn’t rule Type 31 out yet, the RNZN has just bought a stockpile of the primary SAM used by Type 31 rather then upgrading ANZAC to fire ESSM which would have more sense if considering a ship using US derived systems and equipment.
I am only telling what I have heard and pointless having manned OPV’s if we cannot crew them and the navy still have a huge recruitment issue.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I am only telling what I have heard and pointless having manned OPV’s if we cannot crew them and the navy still have a huge recruitment issue.
The problem is simply that the terms and conditions of service were cut back under the Key government to be the same as any normal civilian job. This did not take into account that a the time service men were committed 24/7 not 8 to 5 monday to friday, don't get overtime, can be sent to places they may not want to go and be sent to combat zones plus have to adhere to military's laws and regulations. I was talking to a recently retired RNZAF WO and he said that the service man no longer existed and the personal now days just viewed it as a normal job, nothing else due to the government changing the terms and conditions to mirror civilian jobs. It was a case of complete ignorance by the government at the time and of of following governments.
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
Glad we went with the Romeos for our Navy.
Hope these leads on to the Mogamis...
The acquisition of five MH-60Rs represents a quantum leap forward, introducing modern, capable, and highly interoperable platforms to the fleet. However, the limited number constrains operational flexibility and surge capacity, careful planning will be required to manage overlapping tasks and consistent availability. Hopefully, additional airframes or a supporting fleet of MH-60S will be considered in the future. This will strengthen resilience, enable more effective concurrent tasking, and broaden operational reach. Importantly though, this initial order establishes and sustains a robust training pipeline for both aircrew and maintenance personnel.
 
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Catalina

Active Member
the RNZN has just bought a stockpile of the primary SAM used by Type 31
Yes I believe the open source information is that we purchased 200 CAMM Sea Ceptors, and each of our frigates holds only 20. That means we have 4 full missile reloads for each warship.

Regarding Sea Ceptors and Improved Mogami-class frigates, can Sea Ceptors be quad packed in the 32-cell Mark 41 VLS on the new Mogami-class? If so each Improved Mogami could carry 128 Sea Ceptors giving them over 5 times the defensive punch of our current ANZACs.

Perhaps though the term defensive punch doesn't give justice to the capability of Sea Ceptors. Again its open source knowledge that small as their payload is, Sea Ceptors can also be used in the offensive naval strike role as surface to surface missiles, albeitly of up to the horizon range.. This dual use capability has been confirmed in discussions I had aboard Te Kaha and is also open source knowledge.

Our Navy has 240 Sea Ceptors, 20 in each frigate and 200 in storage. This is almost the perfect number for two Mogami's which would need 256 Sea Ceptors between them.

Four Mogami's would give the RNZN over five hundred missiles. Each Sea Ceptor has a Pk exceeding .9. Any hostile maritime or aerial forces would have to bring many hundreds of missiles into the South Pacific to have even a hope of overcoming a pair or more of Mogami's supporting each other.

Our future 4 frigate Mogami Combat Force, with 2 or 3 operational at any one time, can well defend the Realm of New Zealand.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yes I believe the open source information is that we purchased 200 CAMM Sea Ceptors, and each of our frigates holds only 20. That means we have 4 full missile reloads for each warship.

Regarding Sea Ceptors and Improved Mogami-class frigates, can Sea Ceptors be quad packed in the 32-cell Mark 41 VLS on the new Mogami-class? If so each Improved Mogami could carry 128 Sea Ceptors giving them over 5 times the defensive punch of our current ANZACs.

Perhaps though the term defensive punch doesn't give justice to the capability of Sea Ceptors. Again its open source knowledge that small as their payload is, Sea Ceptors can also be used in the offensive naval strike role as surface to surface missiles, albeitly of up to the horizon range.. This dual use capability has been confirmed in discussions I had aboard Te Kaha and is also open source knowledge.

Our Navy has 240 Sea Ceptors, 20 in each frigate and 200 in storage. This is almost the perfect number for two Mogami's which would need 256 Sea Ceptors between them.

Four Mogami's would give the RNZN over five hundred missiles. Each Sea Ceptor has a Pk exceeding .9. Any hostile maritime or aerial forces would have to bring many hundreds of missiles into the South Pacific to have even a hope of overcoming a pair or more of Mogami's supporting each other.

Our future 4 frigate Mogami Combat Force, with 2 or 3 operational at any one time, can well defend the Realm of New Zealand.
IIRC Sea Ceptor has been tested in a quad-pack configuration for the Mk 41 VLS. Whether or not that also would apply to any of the newer CAMM versions with longer range I am uncertain of. Depending on which version of the Mk 41 VLS which gets fitted aboard a Mogami-class FFG though, I would imagine that a multi-pack version could be developed. It would likely be more a matter of interest and funding.

Having said that though, one also needs to keep in mind some of the limitations of the Sea Ceptor as well, namely the limited range of ~25 km IIRC. That would likely enable a vessel to provide robust self-defence vs. most aerial threats as well as a defensive air bubble relatively close to a frigate, it would still be well short of providing a real area air defence capability, since it really is a short-range air defence missile. Looking at what the RAN has in inventory, namely the RIM-162 ESSM and the SM-2 (not sure which specific versions in inventory) the RAN page lists these air defence missiles with ranges in excess of 50 km and 166 km respectively.

It might be possible to still overwhelm a theoretical RNZN Mogami-class FFG loaded with 128 Sea Ceptor missiles by just having more inbounds cross within 25 km of the ship at once than the CMS and missiles can respond to. That is part of the reason why air defence umbrellas usually try have things arranged in layers, to enable time to respond to inbounds. Unfort having to wait until an inbound is within 25 km does not leave much time for response, a little less than 1.5 min if responding to something like inbound YJ-83 AShM.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Having said that though, one also needs to keep in mind some of the limitations of the Sea Ceptor as well, namely the limited range of ~25 km IIRC
The range of the sea ceptor is usually quoted as +25KM minimum and some reports have noted interceptions in testing in excess of 50km and I did see one report that had a successful intercept at over 70km. One must remember that a missiles range is dictated by altitude with low level range can be down to only a third of high level range due to air density.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The range of the sea ceptor is usually quoted as +25KM minimum and some reports have noted interceptions in testing in excess of 50km and I did see one report that had a successful intercept at over 70km. One must remember that a missiles range is dictated by altitude with low level range can be down to only a third of high level range due to air density.
Yes, but that also applies to the ranges for other air defence missiles like ESSM and SM-2. IIRC there was work on a -ER version of CAMM, of which Sea Ceptor is the essentially the naval variant of (the CAMM family) but there had been some question on how close in size the -ER version was to Sea Ceptor and whether or not the regular Sea Ceptor mushroom farm could accommodate newer/larger and long-legged versions of CAMM.

One of the key points from a planning perspective would likely be how large of an area at sea or underway could a Sea Ceptor-armed frigate realistically protect from hostile aerial threats and/or how far away or spread out could vessels be, whilst still under a Kiwi frigate's defensive air umbrella. In such instances I would expect that, unless the NZDF and/or RNZN knew for certain that the missiles in service had longer ranges, the planning would then reflect the shorter confirmed ranges rather than what might be intercepts under ideal conditions.
 
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