Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Was brought onto an Infrastructure team to work on East Coast base prior to its disappearance from Projects.

I mention Politicians in this post as historical context and not as a bias for or against.

Port Kembla was preferred for multiple reasons including scaling up area, access to deep ocean and less impact on commercial shipping.
The location pre design allowed maximum use of space for entire Sub community with berths providing usage by surface fleet also. The idea was to allow Subs and possible Auxiliary ships basing. We did some scope for NSW Govt to see what they needed to improve in support. Think roads, hospitals, schools, housing and emergency services for supporting the impact of 5,000 personnel and then their families.

This was all prior to Sea 3000 but with FBE receiving 4 Hunters, AOR, Amphib and Anzac replacement.

FBE is currently in planning for major infrastructure upgrades which is seriously needed for future fleets. Not sure how much is public but i look forward to the whinging of Eastern Suburbs residents :p

Newcastle (Having grown up there so aware of the Port) is high traffic for coal industry as priority. The planned basing would be seperate to Maintenance facilities in Newcastle harbour. While it had advantages, i wasnt a fan due to movements of vessels interrupting commerical and cramped infrastructure within the location.

Brisbane was political suggestion and had as much merit as Kevin Rudd wanting FBE there during his 2013 election pitch for votes. If Brisbane was selected, it was politics and not Strategic. The 3-4hr surface passage before deep diving for Submarines should have disqualified this option at the start, before we discussed commercial shipping operations. Berths were insecure compared with PK.

Gladstone was never a serious option but was raised for votes by ALP or deflect from the other suggestions.

With the election going to ALP, the suggestion of East Coast base was shelved as the politics of it was not worth the fight as AUKUS is still a struggle to justify to ALP base. That and preferred option of Port Kembla is ALP seat whos local member opposes.

I lived in Wollongong last 2 yrs and locals were keen to explore it, knowing the economic benefits it would bring to the area. Apparently 5,000 personnel with min. Salary of $100k would benefit the area greatly was obvious to locals but not discussed.

This argument will restart in 15yrs when they start all over again, with our scoping saying 10yrs would be needed to plan, design, approve and build to certification and commencement of working operations. But hey, why get something ready now and have options.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Was brought onto an Infrastructure team to work on East Coast base prior to its disappearance from Projects.

I mention Politicians in this post as historical context and not as a bias for or against.

Port Kembla was preferred for multiple reasons including scaling up area, access to deep ocean and less impact on commercial shipping.
The location pre design allowed maximum use of space for entire Sub community with berths providing usage by surface fleet also. The idea was to allow Subs and possible Auxiliary ships basing. We did some scope for NSW Govt to see what they needed to improve in support. Think roads, hospitals, schools, housing and emergency services for supporting the impact of 5,000 personnel and then their families.

This was all prior to Sea 3000 but with FBE receiving 4 Hunters, AOR, Amphib and Anzac replacement.

FBE is currently in planning for major infrastructure upgrades which is seriously needed for future fleets. Not sure how much is public but i look forward to the whinging of Eastern Suburbs residents :p

Newcastle (Having grown up there so aware of the Port) is high traffic for coal industry as priority. The planned basing would be seperate to Maintenance facilities in Newcastle harbour. While it had advantages, i wasnt a fan due to movements of vessels interrupting commerical and cramped infrastructure within the location.

Brisbane was political suggestion and had as much merit as Kevin Rudd wanting FBE there during his 2013 election pitch for votes. If Brisbane was selected, it was politics and not Strategic. The 3-4hr surface passage before deep diving for Submarines should have disqualified this option at the start, before we discussed commercial shipping operations. Berths were insecure compared with PK.

Gladstone was never a serious option but was raised for votes by ALP or deflect from the other suggestions.

With the election going to ALP, the suggestion of East Coast base was shelved as the politics of it was not worth the fight as AUKUS is still a struggle to justify to ALP base. That and preferred option of Port Kembla is ALP seat whos local member opposes.

I lived in Wollongong last 2 yrs and locals were keen to explore it, knowing the economic benefits it would bring to the area. Apparently 5,000 personnel with min. Salary of $100k would benefit the area greatly was obvious to locals but not discussed.

This argument will restart in 15yrs when they start all over again, with our scoping saying 10yrs would be needed to plan, design, approve and build to certification and commencement of working operations. But hey, why get something ready now and have options.
FBE, anything like the pic on the left?
 

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iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
I question the value of the Phalanx these days with directed energy stations with unlimited 'ammo' now in production. Larger calibre cannons with dual feeds (air burst, AP, etc) also provide more options at a far greater range as well as their own built in surveillance capabilities.
RAN should be looking at other options to the Typhoon mount too, as there's plenty of better systems out there including home grown ones.
SeaRAM provides a similar number of engagements to the Millennium but they would obviously work better together in the layered approach.
Don't forget, directed energy weapons need favourable atmospheric conditions. A foggy day won't be good. We need multiple layers. SeaRAM or RAM, Phalanx, Lasers, and medium calibre guns with smart rounds will give you that. Redundancy will keep you alive.
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
It has to be - Abel Tasman was a shit of a human being who murdered at least one crew member, he triggered a violent confrontation with our NZ allies and he was a Dutch land owner in the Dutch East Indies - with all the slavery issues that brings with it (from a colonising power that wasn't the nicest to it's native residents...)

There is no way we could name a modern combatant after that individual, surely?

And before I hear anything about woke modern views - the murder verdict is from a 1649 Dutch court...
And we worry about James Cook!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
My bad on the Phalanx calibre. Got confused.
You might have been thinking of Goalkeeper, which is a similar type of weapon (rotary cannon) that is 30 mm. Aside from the round used, AFAIK the other major differences between the two are the overall displacement and deck penetration. The Mk 15 Block 1B displaces ~6 tonnes and is non-deck penetrating just requiring a reinforced mounting and connections, whilst a Goalkeeper is just under 10 tonnes and is deck penetrating.

I question the value of the Phalanx these days with directed energy stations with unlimited 'ammo' now in production. Larger calibre cannons with dual feeds (air burst, AP, etc) also provide more options at a far greater range as well as their own built in surveillance capabilities.
RAN should be looking at other options to the Typhoon mount too, as there's plenty of better systems out there including home grown ones.
SeaRAM provides a similar number of engagements to the Millennium but they would obviously work better together in the layered approach.
The 'new' mod, the Block 1B, provides the Phalanx with an anti-surface/FAC capability. My personal belief is that the USN having adopted the Mk 15 Phalanx decades ago, is attempting to keep the weapon at least somewhat relevant because there are so many in US inventory and either already fitted to vessels in service, or the mounting locations are in place. AFAIK though, newer classes of US warships are being designed for RAM and not Phalanx and I suspect again, that this is due to the Mk 15 with it's effective range of ~1km is no longer really regarded as effective, even for a 'hail Mary' type of defensive action.

Me being me, I think the RAN could do with a mix of CIWS types aboard the majors. A few small/medium calibre rapid fire guns in the 30 mm to 40 mm range for use vs. drones, FAC and leakers with some options for programmable/bursting munitions in a decent mounting. Or to put it another way, not a Bushmaster gun or Typhoon mounting.

I also think there might be some worth in the RAN having some options in terms of missile-based CIWS for longer engagement ranges particularly vs. fast inbounds. Not sure that the RIM-116 RAM is the right way to go TBH though. The per missile cost for RAM is something like USD$900k/missile, which seems quite expensive given that a RIM-162 ESSM is roughly twice the price, but roughly 5x greater range, larger warhead, etc. I would be interested to see what the per missile cost of similar or alternate systems are with Iron Dome and Sea Ceptor coming to mind as possibilities. One requirement for me though would be that Australia would need to be able to engage in domestic production of the ordnance.
 

Mechguy

New Member
This is an interesting article. Japan shifts software centric approach form hardware centric. It also mentioned about OYX-1 CMS that's open architecture and flexibility focus which suppose to be on Australian Mogami as well.

 

I hv I on U

New Member
End of year MFU, Best case…

2025> 3 HOBARTS, 7 ANZACS (10)
2026> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2027> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2028> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2029> 3 HOBARTS, 6 ANZACS (9)
2030> 3 HOBARTS, 5 ANZACS, 1 GPF (9)
2031> 3 HOBARTS, 5 ANZACS, 1 GPF (9)
2032> 3 HOBARTS, 4 ANZACS, 2 GPF (9)
2033> 3 HOBARTS, 4 ANZACS, 2 GPF (9)
2034> 3 HOBARTS, 3 ANZACS, 3 GPF, 1 HUNTER (10)
2035> 3 HOBARTS, 3 ANZACS, 3 GPF, 1 HUNTER (10)
2036> 3 HOBARTS, 2 ANZACS, 4 GPF, 2 HUNTERS (11)
2037> 3 HOBARTS, 2 ANZACS, 4 GPF, 2 HUNTERS (11)
2038> 3 HOBARTS, 5 GPF, 3 HUNTERS (11)
2039> 3 HOBARTS, 5 GPF, 3 HUNTERS (11)
2040> 3 HOBARTS, 6 GPF, 4 HUNTERS (13)
2041> 3 HOBARTS, 6 GPF, 4 HUNTERS (13)
2042> 3 HOBARTS, 7 GPF, 5 HUNTERS (15)
2043> 3 HOBARTS, 7 GPF, 6 HUNTERS (16)
2044> 3 HOBARTS, 8 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 1 AWD (18)
2045> 3 HOBARTS, 8 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 1 AWD (18)
2046> 3 HOBARTS, 9 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 2 AWD (20)
2047> 3 HOBARTS, 9 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 2 AWD (20)
2048> 2 HOBARTS, 10 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 3 AWD (21)
2049> 2 HOBARTS, 10 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 3 AWD (21)
2050> 1 HOBART, 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 4 AWD (22*)
2051> 1 HOBART, 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 4 AWD* (22*)
2052> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 5 AWD* (22*)
2053> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 5 AWD* (22*)
2054> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 6 AWD* (23*)
2055> 11 GPF, 6 HUNTERS, 6 AWD (23*)


-Anzacs and Hobarts may be given 30 years or more -parts taken from decommissioned ships to keep the fleet dropping below 9 and before destroyer replacement.
-Ships decommissioned at 28 years would result in only a 6 ship fleet at the end of 2033(3 Hobart, 1 Anzac, 2 GPF).
-Marles has stated the Upgraded Mogamis will be built on a 2 year drumbeat at Henderson.
-Henderson precinct consolidation/upgrade - 5 years from design(2026) = Around 2031(hopefully earlier) before cut steel on Australian built GPF.
-List does not include LOSVs.
-*likely more than 3 Destroyers but not planned as yet.
More importantly is the number of VLS available in the fleet and the cost to fill them with missiles
Assuming
Hobart 48
ANZAC 8
GPF 32
Hunter 32
AWD (maybe wishfulthinking) 96
Mid 2030's and it accelerates quickly.
YearVLS
2025200
2026192
2027192
2028192
2029184
2030216
2031216
2032240
2033240
2034296
2035296
2036352
2037352
2038400
2039400
2040464
2041464
2042528
2043560
2044688
2045688
2046720
2047720
2048896
2049896
2050976
2051912
20521024
20531024
20541120
20551120
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
. . . Not sure that the RIM-116 RAM is the right way to go TBH though. The per missile cost for RAM is something like USD$900k/missile, which seems quite expensive given that a RIM-162 ESSM is roughly twice the price, but roughly 5x greater range, larger warhead, etc. I would be interested to see what the per missile cost of similar or alternate systems are with Iron Dome and Sea Ceptor coming to mind as possibilities. . . .
Minimum range is also a factor. I've seen figures of 500 metres for RAM & 1500 for ESSM, & I suspect that ESSM KP drops off before targets get that close..
 
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