The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Fredled

Active Member
Ukrinform reported for Sunday twice less Russian casualties and extremely low material losses. It's clearly a sign that a half truce was briefly observed.

Ukraine celebrated the end of the Pascal Truce with a big firework north-east of Moscow today. LOL. :D

Feanor said:
It looks like both sides are gesturing that they might be open to a conversation. The big question is whether they're sincere or if this is for Trump's benefit so they can blame the other side when it doesn't work out.
I don't think any of them are sincere about immediate ceasefire. I think that Ukrainians want a ceasefire for 30 days to be allowed to receive a few more weapons from European partners, maybe one or two more F16 and regroup. Of course Russia would do this as well but it's more critical for Ukraine.
Long term I think that Ukraine could accept to freeze the border on the current front line, but not much more. This would be a half-victory for Ukraine. Russia too, would accept to keep only territories under their control, as the most recent news suggest, but they still add several conditions regarding Ukrainian security difficult to accept.
Ukrainians won't believe in a ceasefire until they do see that Russian attacks stopped. Russians won't want a ceasefire as long as they they believe that they are progressing.

Both ar trying to convince Trump that they are the good guys. Ukraine to keep getting weapons to continue to fight. Russians to gain things in an agreement without fighting.

Feanor said:
Also, personally I'm of the opinion that the strike on the Sudzha gas transfer station is Ukrainian.
Since Russians use pipelines primarily to transport soldiers across the front line, is it still an "energy facility"? ;)
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ukrinform reported for Sunday twice less Russian casualties and extremely low material losses. It's clearly a sign that a half truce was briefly observed.

Ukraine celebrated the end of the Pascal Truce with a big firework north-east of Moscow today. LOL. :D


I don't think any of them are sincere about immediate ceasefire. I think that Ukrainians want a ceasefire for 30 days to be allowed to receive a few more weapons from European partners, maybe one or two more F16 and regroup. Of course Russia would do this as well but it's more critical for Ukraine.
Long term I think that Ukraine could accept to freeze the border on the current front line, but not much more. This would be a half-victory for Ukraine. Russia too, would accept to keep only territories under their control, as the most recent news suggest, but they still add several conditions regarding Ukrainian security difficult to accept.
Ukrainians won't believe in a ceasefire until they do see that Russian attacks stopped. Russians won't want a ceasefire as long as they they believe that they are progressing.

Both ar trying to convince Trump that they are the good guys. Ukraine to keep getting weapons to continue to fight. Russians to gain things in an agreement without fighting.
I think the important part is not so much about an immediate ceasefire. I think the biggest question is whether they're ready to negotiate.

Since Russians use pipelines primarily to transport soldiers across the front line, is it still an "energy facility"? ;)
Good point. Depends on the terms of the energy ceasefire, I guess.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
20250423_115511.jpg

Pro Russian accounts shown the rail line across sea of azov coastline to Crimea already operational. The cargos and defense supplies now being claim using those lines more and more to Crimea rather then Kerch Bridge. Shown from the begining why Russia aim to keep those four oblast.

All in my opinion back to secure Sea of Azov and Crimea.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
I think the biggest question is whether they're ready to negotiate.
It's still a stalemate. Trump's peace proposal looks more like an ultimatum to give Putin almost everything he wanted from the very beginning while giving nothing to Ukraine in compensation. Ukraine have to :
- Officially recognise Crimea as Russian territory
- Give free control to the Russians over the territory under their military control inside Ukraine. This means not to be allowed to attack Russian forces in an attempt to retake these territories.
- Not join NATO and not take steps to get closer to NATO membership. The spirit of this last point is that Ukraine will not be able to closely cooperate with NATO countries to better integrate their defence with their allies.

There is clearly no incentive for Ukraine to accept because it would put Ukraine in a very weak position, perhaps in the inability to fence off against future Russians special military operations.

Russians would be able to legally anchor their fleet in Sebastopol and sail around Crimea in their new national waters. This would threaten Odesa directly. Ukrainians would not be able to attack or to threaten to attack the Russian fleet there because that would be attacking Russian territory.

The free control of occupied territories would have similar effect, al thought, in case of a restart of hostilities, Ukraine would have more legitimacy to attack Russians there and to attempt to retake these territories. In practice, as long as the truce lasts, Russians would be able to reinforce their defence line, organise troops and logistic better than under constant attacks and and to replace the population.

According to Ukrainian Vice Prime Minister and Minister of Economy of Ukraine Yulia Svyrydenko, Ukraine could accept not to join NATO if security guarantees are provided. But that would not be in the spirit of the condition of "not joining NATO". Not joining NATO would be useless for Putin if in reality, everything is as if they were in NATO. Putin would certainly not agree to let European allies provide sufficient security guarantees to Ukraine. He has already made it clear several times.

Yulia Svyrydenko said:
As Ukraine’s delegation meets with partners in London today, we reaffirm a principled position: Ukraine is ready to negotiate—but not to surrender. There will be no agreement that hands Russia the stronger foundations it needs to regroup and return with greater violence.

She added that a full ceasefire—on land, in the air, and at sea—is the necessary first step. If Russia opts for a limited pause, Ukraine will respond in kind.

Our people will not accept a frozen conflict disguised as peace. We will never recognize the occupation of Crimea. And if NATO membership is not granted, Ukraine will require binding security guarantees—ones strong enough to deter future aggression, and clear enough to ensure lasting peace.
France and Europeans in general support the Ukrainian position in this regard. (link in french)
Ukraine not only has diplomatic support but the non-US military support + Ukrainian domestic production could make up for the loss of US aid within one year. Not 100% of course, because some weapons would not be available. Intelligence would also suffer. But the basic weapons and ammunitions they will have will be enough to keep on fighting against Russian expansion. US shipments already shrank to almost nothing already, as I have heard (to be confirmed). In fact, it's been one year that Ukrainians prepared for the Trump era.

Trump makes a mistake by thinking that Ukraine will collapse immediately if he cuts weapon supplies. He also makes a mistake by over estimating the power of Russia. Because of these misconceptions, he makes crazy demands for a mineral deal and bend to Russian demands. He also underestimate how useful the NATO alliance is for the US. He already expressed frustration at the European planning to produce their own weapons instead of buying american ones. Yet, he doesn't fully understand that this is the direct consequence of being reluctant to protect Europe and leaning toward pro-Russia policies.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's still a stalemate.
It looks like Russia signalled a willingness to talk and Ukraine refused. I suspect this is what Russia wanted.

Trump's peace proposal looks more like an ultimatum to give Putin almost everything he wanted from the very beginning while giving nothing to Ukraine in compensation. Ukraine have to :
- Officially recognise Crimea as Russian territory
- Give free control to the Russians over the territory under their military control inside Ukraine. This means not to be allowed to attack Russian forces in an attempt to retake these territories.
- Not join NATO and not take steps to get closer to NATO membership. The spirit of this last point is that Ukraine will not be able to closely cooperate with NATO countries to better integrate their defence with their allies.
It absolutely doesn't give Putin almost everything he wanted from the beginning. I suspect he wanted regime change for a favorable figure. It's not even everything Russia currently wants. Russia currently wants 5 regions recognized as theirs and any territories not already controlled handed over. Ukraine's military size to be limited, Ukraine to accept a de-Nazification plan, likely of Russian manufacture, and for there to be no NATO presence in Ukraine, with Ukraine effectively Finlandized. Instead this deal would have recognized only Crimea as Russian, frozen the conflict along the current lines, and brought western forces into Ukraine. Nothing about limiting the size of Ukraine's military. I suspect if push came to shove, Russia wouldn't have accepted this deal.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if behind the scenes Russia and the US agreed that Ukraine will have to make some territorial concessions. Russia then indicated they're willing to talk but Ukraine isn't. And this offer was the litmus test. Recognizing the loss of Crimea, the least recoverable province, the one with a Russian majority population, and the one Russia took with the cooperation of both the local government and elements of Ukraine's own force-wielding apparatus. If Ukraine isn't even willing to discuss recognizing that as lost, they're clearly not willing to negotiate. The next step might be either a last ditch effort by the US to twist Zelensky's arm, by blocking all transfer of anything with US components, cutting intel, etc. or alternatively the US might walk away, cut all aid, but be willing to sell whatever Ukraine needs for cash, and let Europe handle this war on their own with the US profiting from the resources deal and arms sales. Granted this is just my speculation but a lot of the noises made seem to indicate something along these lines.

There is clearly no incentive for Ukraine to accept because it would put Ukraine in a very weak position, perhaps in the inability to fence off against future Russians special military operations.
There are several clear incentives, the biggest of which is that the fighting stops and Russia doesn't gain any more ground. It's also not clear this in any way prevents fencing themselves off.

Russians would be able to legally anchor their fleet in Sebastopol and sail around Crimea in their new national waters. This would threaten Odesa directly. Ukrainians would not be able to attack or to threaten to attack the Russian fleet there because that would be attacking Russian territory.
If the war ends, then the reason Ukraine can't attack the Russian fleet is because the war ended. If the war continues, it doesn't matter where the border is, Ukraine is attacking targets inside Russia all the time. Or do you somehow envision an end to the war where Ukraine retains the ability to continue a low-intensity campaign against Russian-occupied areas while Russia's hands are somehow tied?

The free control of occupied territories would have similar effect, al thought, in case of a restart of hostilities, Ukraine would have more legitimacy to attack Russians there and to attempt to retake these territories. In practice, as long as the truce lasts, Russians would be able to reinforce their defence line, organise troops and logistic better than under constant attacks and and to replace the population.
Both sides would be able to do this, putting the side that wants to advance in a new conflict at a disadvantage. So if Ukraine doesn't want a resumption of hostilities, this should work in Ukraine's favor. If Ukraine is looking for a break, after which they can resume the fight, then obviously this is potentially problematic for them. But of course the whole point is to end the war. So the deal naturally wouldn't be geared towards that objective. Trump is already talking about removing sanctions from Russia. And it's pretty clear Russia isn't looking for a pause, they want a peace treaty.

According to Ukrainian Vice Prime Minister and Minister of Economy of Ukraine Yulia Svyrydenko, Ukraine could accept not to join NATO if security guarantees are provided. But that would not be in the spirit of the condition of "not joining NATO". Not joining NATO would be useless for Putin if in reality, everything is as if they were in NATO. Putin would certainly not agree to let European allies provide sufficient security guarantees to Ukraine. He has already made it clear several times.
You seem to have a willful disregard for the obvious alternative, a non-NATO security framework that's nonetheless binding. The disregard is your own. There is no reason a number of European nations couldn't provide binding security guarantees, especially in a climate where the US is distinctly not willing to.

France and Europeans in general support the Ukrainian position in this regard. (link in french)
Ukraine not only has diplomatic support but the non-US military support + Ukrainian domestic production could make up for the loss of US aid within one year. Not 100% of course, because some weapons would not be available. Intelligence would also suffer. But the basic weapons and ammunitions they will have will be enough to keep on fighting against Russian expansion. US shipments already shrank to almost nothing already, as I have heard (to be confirmed). In fact, it's been one year that Ukrainians prepared for the Trump era.
This won't age well. Assuming the war isn't about to end, let's revisit this claim in a year and see how well Ukraine's domestic military production is faring. Personally I don't buy it. Ukraine's air defenses are drying up, and Russia's strikes are intensifying with drone production expanding. The most recent Shahed strikes indicate not only a change in quantity but in quality. I'll discuss it more in the next update. Ukraine's still bleeding population, and slowly losing territory. And as it loses territory, Russia rebuilds some of the back areas, drawing off population from Ukrainian held areas to Russian-occupied areas. These people aren't necessarily pro-Russian, many are just going home, but the effect is still problematic.

Trump makes a mistake by thinking that Ukraine will collapse immediately if he cuts weapon supplies. He also makes a mistake by over estimating the power of Russia. Because of these misconceptions, he makes crazy demands for a mineral deal and bend to Russian demands. He also underestimate how useful the NATO alliance is for the US. He already expressed frustration at the European planning to produce their own weapons instead of buying american ones. Yet, he doesn't fully understand that this is the direct consequence of being reluctant to protect Europe and leaning toward pro-Russia policies.
Does he really think Ukraine will collapse immediately? I suspect if not Trump, people in his administration don't assume Ukraine will collapse. But they have quite a bit of leverage, and will use it to try and get a resource deal, and a favorable peace deal. If they can't, they will probably settle for just the resources.
 
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rsemmes

Active Member
After 3 years of Putins 3 day SMO, it's pretty difficult to say that Russia has been winning this war.
Who said anything about Russia winning?
On the other hand... How would you describe owning 20% of your enemy's country?

UK could scrap plans to send thousands of troops to Ukraine
British sources said that it was deemed ‘too risky’ to send ground forces because of the risk of a wider conflict if a ceasefire deal with Russia broke down
UK could scrap plans to send thousands of troops to Ukraine (Paywall)

Maybe, we are keeping our distance to give Ukraine room to "prepare".
 

Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
It looks like Russia signalled a willingness to talk and Ukraine refused.
Ukraine accepted a total ceasefire 40 days ago. Russia has persistantly rejected it.
Feanor said:
It absolutely doesn't give Putin almost everything he wanted from the beginning.
You are right. Putin wanted much more at the beginning of the Special Military Operation. However it's not thanks to Trump's peace initiative or some willingless to give something away. But only because his initial goals don't match the "reality on the ground" anymore.

Let's say that Russia doesn't have to give up anything that they already have.

Feanor said:
Recognizing the loss of Crimea, the least recoverable province, the one with a Russian majority population, and the one Russia took with the cooperation of both the local government and elements of Ukraine's own force-wielding apparatus. If Ukraine isn't even willing to discuss recognizing that as lost, they're clearly not willing to negotiate.
....
If the war ends, then the reason Ukraine can't attack the Russian fleet is because the war ended. If the war continues, it doesn't matter where the border is, Ukraine is attacking targets inside Russia all the time.
Ukraine is not willing to negotiate a deal that doesn't make sens for them. If they recognise Crimea as Russia, then the waters around Crimea becomes automaticaly Russian waters. It will mean that any activity of the Ukrainian navy (especialy the unmanned navy) would be illegal and could be denounced as provocation in peace time. If the water are still Ukrainians, then the opposite is true: The presence of the Russian fleet would be seen as a provocation.

Crimea is not the least recoverable province. If Ukrainians take Berdiansk and destroy the Kerch Bridge, Crimea will fall. Of course, it's not possible now as they are not able to do any of the two.
Strategically, Crimea is much more important for the defense of Ukraine, of Odessa in particular, than the Donbass. That's why Ukrainians talk so much about Crimea.
The composition of the population and how pro Russian they might be has little importance. It was much more important ten years ago. A civil resistance to Ukrainian occupation is very unlikely, IMO.

Feanor said:
You seem to have a willful disregard for the obvious alternative, a non-NATO security framework that's nonetheless binding.
I, personally, don't disregard it. The Russians do. Russians will never agree to an alternative which could replace NATO effectively (or be even more effective than NATO). It wouldn't make sens for them. The goal of refusing that Ukraine joins NATO is to prevent Ukraine to be defended by allies the next time Russia will attack.
And if you think that Russians won't attack one more time, think about the reason why they don't want Ukraine inside NATO...

Ukraine will only agree to a peace deal which won't jeopardise their defense against a renewed Russian attack in the future. It won't make sens for them to sign a deal which will make another attempt to invade their land easier. That's why they don't want the Russian Fleet along the west coast of Crimea, that they want free hand to strike "inside Ukraine" if necessary, and want either NATO membership or a an equivalent alternative.

I understand your argument: Russia is still gaining ground. But it's better for Ukraine to lose ground at a very slow pace now than lose one more large region - or the whole country - suddenly in a few years. They have been through this twice. They won;t allow it to happen a thrid time. They would rather continue to fight than paving the way for a future invasion.

Feanor said:
Assuming the war isn't about to end, let's revisit this claim in a year and see how well Ukraine's domestic military production is faring.
Nobody said that it will be as easy as with US aid. If the loss of US military aid can be compensated with other sources, but at the same time Russia increases their fire power, then of course, it will be more difficult for Ukraine.
The point is that the more time passed by, the less Ukraine is reliant on US aid.

Feanor said:
Does he really think Ukraine will collapse immediately? I suspect if not Trump, people in his administration don't assume Ukraine will collapse. But they have quite a bit of leverage, and will use it to try and get a resource deal, and a favorable peace deal. If they can't, they will probably settle for just the resources.
They certainly over estimated and maybe still overestimate this leverage. They think that they can share the pie with Putin and that Ukrainians have no way to oppose the partition and the plunder. It's a grave miscalculation.
 

Vanquish

Member
Who said anything about Russia winning?
On the other hand... How would you describe owning 20% of your enemy's country?

UK could scrap plans to send thousands of troops to Ukraine
British sources said that it was deemed ‘too risky’ to send ground forces because of the risk of a wider conflict if a ceasefire deal with Russia broke down
UK could scrap plans to send thousands of troops to Ukraine (Paywall)

Maybe, we are keeping our distance to give Ukraine room to "prepare".
Well when you once had roughly 27% of Ukrainian land (March 2022) and are now into year 4 and have roughly 20% of Ukrainian land and no end in sight, I would certainly suggest both involved countries are the biggest losers.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Who said anything about Russia winning?
On the other hand... How would you describe owning 20% of your enemy's country?
The Soviet Union "owned" all of the territory of Afghanistan yet didn't win. In this case Russia has ~20% and is advancing, very very slowly. I think the only sense we can say Russia is winning in is in grinding down the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Russia chose to make this an attrition war when they failed in a maneuver war, and are now winning on attrition. But to be clear, this war could easily last years longer depending on any number of factors. And there are larger players outside this war that could massively impact the outcome. Right now neither side has a clear and reasonably short path to victory. This is why it actually makes sense to negotiate now. Russia has a shadowy and nebulous path to an eventual victory through a long war. Ukraine can really only hope that eventually something will change to alter the trajectory of the war, which to be fair isn't an entirely unreasonable view of things.

Well when you once had roughly 27% of Ukrainian land (March 2022) and are now into year 4 and have roughly 20% of Ukrainian land and no end in sight, I would certainly suggest both involved countries are the biggest losers.
I agree with the last part, but I would be very careful about taking Russian areas of "control" in the first half of '22 seriously. In many cases they moved through an area, set up some checkpoints along their MSR, and that was about it. I think the peak of Russian area of control was probably September '22. By then they had consolidated, installed provisional authorities in areas they controlled, and the front lines were relatively solid. I also think it's a bit disingenuous to point to Ukraine's only successful offensive campaigns in Crimea and Kherson, both ~2.5 years ago, in a rather different military environment, as in any way indicative of where this war is going. As above, I think it makes sense to try and negotiate now, assuming the sides are willing.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ukraine accepted a total ceasefire 40 days ago. Russia has persistantly rejected it.
Well of course they did. This has been discussed to death I think.

You are right. Putin wanted much more at the beginning of the Special Military Operation. However it's not thanks to Trump's peace initiative or some willingless to give something away. But only because his initial goals don't match the "reality on the ground" anymore.
I suspect they never matched the reality on the ground. Russia missed the changes within Ukraine that occurred from '14 to '22. In '14 Russia really could roll in and expect entire units to surrender and many local governments to shrug and simply accept the change in management. In '22 that was no longer the case.

Let's say that Russia doesn't have to give up anything that they already have.
They have to give up the only real leverage they have over Ukraine, continuation of hostilities. Without that, what chance is there of Ukraine ever recognizing occupied areas as actually Russian?

Ukraine is not willing to negotiate a deal that doesn't make sens for them. If they recognise Crimea as Russia, then the waters around Crimea becomes automaticaly Russian waters. It will mean that any activity of the Ukrainian navy (especialy the unmanned navy) would be illegal and could be denounced as provocation in peace time. If the water are still Ukrainians, then the opposite is true: The presence of the Russian fleet would be seen as a provocation.
Under the terms of this deal, as we know them, this simply isn't true. If Ukraine took this peace deal, then Ukrainian naval operations off the coast of Crimea would be a provocation, but so would Ukrainian military operations in or against any occupied areas that aren't recognized as Russian. Again, is the point to end the war or to dial it down to a level where Ukraine doesn't have a real chance of state-level collapse? If the point is to end the war, and the ending involves accepting Russian control of occupied areas, even only de-facto, then you presumably don't intend to operate there.

Crimea is not the least recoverable province. If Ukrainians take Berdiansk and destroy the Kerch Bridge, Crimea will fall. Of course, it's not possible now as they are not able to do any of the two.
Strategically, Crimea is much more important for the defense of Ukraine, of Odessa in particular, than the Donbass. That's why Ukrainians talk so much about Crimea.
Of course. And L'vov isn't the least conquerable province for Russia. If they force the Dnepr, and take Kiev, L'vov will fall... complete nonsense.

Ok, out of the 5 provinces Russia controls most or all of, which do you consider the least recoverable? Don't forget to factor in which areas Russia will be willing to go the farthest to defend.

The composition of the population and how pro Russian they might be has little importance. It was much more important ten years ago. A civil resistance to Ukrainian occupation is very unlikely, IMO.
I guess if you don't care about the desires of the population it doesn't matter. Which of the two is the democracy again? Oh right, neither. Sorry, I'm forgetting.

I, personally, don't disregard it. The Russians do. Russians will never agree to an alternative which could replace NATO effectively (or be even more effective than NATO). It wouldn't make sens for them. The goal of refusing that Ukraine joins NATO is to prevent Ukraine to be defended by allies the next time Russia will attack.
And if you think that Russians won't attack one more time, think about the reason why they don't want Ukraine inside NATO...
This isn't true. NATO membership means the potential for NATO offensive facilities stationed there. And if the deal is signed, and the war is done, what exactly would prevent Ukraine from signing these agreements with France, Germany, and the UK? Even now nothing strictly speaking stops any of these countries from declaring that they will go to war with Russia over Ukraine. They obviously aren't willing to do it, but that's not a question of agreements or of Russian desires. The main question of security guarantees for Ukraine isn't Russia. It's the willingness of EU member states and other non-US NATO countries to shoulder that burden knowing that there's a good chance the US won't back them up if things get unpleasant. If Europe is willing, Russia won't be able to do much about it. Russia is banking on the idea that Europe won't be willing, and they may be right. But again, a peace deal that says Ukraine won't join NATO in no way substantively or formally prevents other security arrangements. You'll notice that Russia takes issue with the presence of western troops in Ukraine, but hasn't made a peep about security guarantees.

Ukraine will only agree to a peace deal which won't jeopardise their defense against a renewed Russian attack in the future. It won't make sens for them to sign a deal which will make another attempt to invade their land easier. That's why they don't want the Russian Fleet along the west coast of Crimea, that they want free hand to strike "inside Ukraine" if necessary, and want either NATO membership or a an equivalent alternative.
How does the deal we recently saw do that? The only reason the Russian navy isn't currently on the west coast of Crimea is that this is impractical. They're vulnerable to Ukrainian unmanned boats, and don't have much of a mission to do there. If hostilities resume, this will all still be the case, provided Ukraine continues to maintain a robust unmanned boat capability, and Russia doesn't come up with an effective counter. But here's the kicker, these considerations all still apply even if the war continues. If Ukraine right now somehow fails to produce unmanned boats or Russia produces an effective counter, the VMF will once again be off the west of coast of Crimea.

I understand your argument: Russia is still gaining ground. But it's better for Ukraine to lose ground at a very slow pace now than lose one more large region - or the whole country - suddenly in a few years. They have been through this twice. They won;t allow it to happen a thrid time. They would rather continue to fight than paving the way for a future invasion.
They're not only losing ground, that's the least significant part currently. They're losing population, and the longer the war goes on the fewer people will return to Ukraine. They're also losing economic development, and their infrastructure is under constant attack. Ukraine can keep fighting this defensive war, until they can't. And when they can't, Russia will have a negotiating position that will make the current one look downright mild. Unless Ukraine has a path to victory, they need to negotiate before things get worse for them.

Nobody said that it will be as easy as with US aid. If the loss of US military aid can be compensated with other sources, but at the same time Russia increases their fire power, then of course, it will be more difficult for Ukraine.
The point is that the more time passed by, the less Ukraine is reliant on US aid.
I'm not sure this is true. Ukraine got a large boost in US deliveries in Q4 2024. Very little since then. I think the second half of this year, if no new large US aid packages come, will show us how reliant Ukraine is or isn't on US aid. For context the most common IFV in Ukrainian service is the BMP-1, the second most common is the BMP-2. But the third most common is the Bradley. Marder deliveries haven't reached those numbers yet, and while they could eventually, they're coming slowly and in small batches. How about the M113? It's become a real workhorse of the Ukrainian military. How many of them were sourced from the US directly? How many more could be sourced from the US but won't be? Ukrainian domestic production can make up for munitions but for platforms, they're producing a howitzer, and some mediocre armored cars. I don't think Ukraine can domestically mass-produce APCs, IFVs, MBTs, or complex AA. I think in those areas Europe will have to step up.

They certainly over estimated and maybe still overestimate this leverage. They think that they can share the pie with Putin and that Ukrainians have no way to oppose the partition and the plunder. It's a grave miscalculation.
Let's see if the resource deal goes through. That will tell us a lot about Trump's leverage of lack thereof.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
The Soviet Union "owned"...
You yourself, used "...", like Vietnam, like the Peninsular War, they "owned" the ground where they stood. It is not exactly the same thing in occupied Ukraine; I read something about "partisan activity" in some area, but we don't (I, at least) get anything about it.
Slowly, costly, but what else can we call it now, not in one of many possible futures? Anyway, what I said is that Ukraine has been losing.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
The easy use of attritional war term should be considered with daily material losses are very unlikely to be matched by production levels to match
That Russian attacks have included massed attacks by motor bikes hardly different to a cavalry charge, fine two hundred years ago but now problematic would show a lack of modern protection for its forces
A question might be how sustainable this attritional warfare is
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The easy use of attritional war term should be considered with daily material losses are very unlikely to be matched by production levels to match
That Russian attacks have included massed attacks by motor bikes hardly different to a cavalry charge, fine two hundred years ago but now problematic would show a lack of modern protection for its forces
A question might be how sustainable this attritional warfare is
Is it real though? 96 destroyed motorcycles is piles and piles. The video they link doesn't show anything near that. And the channel in question isn't exactly impartial... With a title like Euromaidan press, this isn't a credible report. To be clear, this isn't impossible, but the lack of noise from other sources raises questions.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
guess if you don't care about the desires of the population it doesn't matter. Which of the two is the democracy again? Oh right, neither. Sorry, I'm forgetting.
While the Western Mainstream Media and EU still call Zelensky champion of democracy. Zelensky is just another Oligarchs back regime and basically Putin wannabe. I wrote that few years back and still stand on it. The funny thing is before the War, Western Mainstream media use to critize Ukraine democracy track record.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Does this mean that any source of reporting that is not Russian is unreliable?
Certainly the Pandora files exposure pointed at President Zelensky but also other claims have been shown to be fake likely a smear attempt from Russia known for this type of actions either organised troll farms with paid workers getting on to web sites to create a narrative that stretches or alters the truth ,I had an interesting discussion a few years ago with a person who admitted working for such with some interesting techniques on engaging people to the point they wanted to promote, I would like to hope with any post we can provide some authenticity not happening though to often those attacking western sources cant provide an alternative authentic source
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Does this mean that any source of reporting that is not Russian is unreliable?
Certainly the Pandora files exposure pointed at President Zelensky but also other claims have been shown to be fake likely a smear attempt from Russia known for this type of actions either organised troll farms with paid workers getting on to web sites to create a narrative that stretches or alters the truth ,I had an interesting discussion a few years ago with a person who admitted working for such with some interesting techniques on engaging people to the point they wanted to promote, I would like to hope with any post we can provide some authenticity not happening though to often those attacking western sources cant provide an alternative authentic source
Nope. The attack on Ugledar using bikes was reported on by multiple sources and discussed. It's also a much more realistic number, given the scale of typical attacks in this conflict. And we have primary sources that at least appear to support the claim. The issue with the source above is not that it's not Russian. It's that the youtube channel in question is known to be very biased. A cursory glance at the titles of videos alone is a dead giveaway. It's a "Ukraine stronk" channel. You don't see me quoting Tsargrad, or similar nonsense here.

Let's be clear here, Russia has been using motorbikes, ATVs, scooters, and other improvised mobility options for front line movements and attacks (note when we say attack we're talking about movement to the dismount point before attacking, they're not literally running bikes over Ukrainian positions). I don't think anyone is disputing the general pattern, and if they are they're wrong. But 150 bikes in one place, with Ukraine taking out 96 of them, but the evidence shows literally several bikes on the ground, and that's it? It doesn't look right. A failed attack on that scale also typically draws attention. When Russia lost an entire mech coy near Novomikhailovka (and let's be clear, they weren't all dead, there were survivors, but the unit was shredded), it became a major discussion point in Russian and Ukrainian sources. Here we have something larger then that. 21 vehicles, and 96 motorbikes. That's practically a btln taken out, more then a btln committed. That's on par with the Russian push to the rail-berm at Avdeevka. And the source is just... this? It doesn't look credible. By the way, look at the date on the video. If there was reality to this, we'd be seeing other sources discuss it, and likely more primary source materials coming out.

Now you mention western sources. Is there a western source that independently corroborates this? Because Euromaidan press is not a "western source".
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Trump's peace proposal looks more like an ultimatum to give Putin almost everything he wanted from the very beginning while giving nothing to Ukraine in compensation.
Peace treaties are never fair.

Unfortunately, Ukraine's ability to decide on it's future and what it deems are "fair" are limited by what it's allies are prepared to support. Re Russia's goal from the start as never about taking over (physically) the entire Ukraine; but to overthrow the government and place someone more pliant to Moscow and takeover the more pro-Russian areas.

The options on the table are getting a less worse deal (e.g security backstop) versus continuing the war. Of course, in an alternative timeline, maybe we have a Democrat in power and they throw more money (with Europe) into Ukraine to get them into a better position to negotiate.
 

Redshift

Active Member
Who said anything about Russia winning?
On the other hand... How would you describe owning 20% of your enemy's country?

UK could scrap plans to send thousands of troops to Ukraine
British sources said that it was deemed ‘too risky’ to send ground forces because of the risk of a wider conflict if a ceasefire deal with Russia broke down
UK could scrap plans to send thousands of troops to Ukraine (Paywall)

Maybe, we are keeping our distance to give Ukraine room to "prepare".
Enemy? Ukraine were never Russia's enemy they just weren't a slave state like Belarus and that was the problem Russia was attempting to solve with force.
 
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