Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Volkodav]

As you would know far better than me, controlling costs but also controlling crewing.
If the Hunters were built quicker then large crews with many new technical roles need to be ready sooner just as the RAN is massively expanding its submarine workforce.
Whenever people propose accelerating a build. Where does the trained crew come from to make the asset usable?

The core crew of the hunter class is no larger than the ANZAC actual and less than the Hobart's.

The SEA 3000 frigates will similar or much smaller crews.

Remembering also, the Hobart's will be going through extensive upgrades freeing up some crew.

Maybe use emulators and simulators on the Arafuras and LHDs to get more combat systems operators, and PWOs trained for major fleet units.

Same with maintainers.

 

[iambuzzard]

The core crew of the hunter class is no larger than the ANZAC actual and less than the Hobart's.

The SEA 3000 frigates will similar or much smaller crews.

Remembering also, the Hobart's will be going through extensive upgrades freeing up some crew.

Maybe use emulators and simulators on the Arafuras and LHDs to get more combat systems operators, and PWOs trained for major fleet units.

Same with maintainers.

Thanks Volks, always the voice of common sense.

 

[devo99]

I'm sure DFR would be much happier to be asked to find 28 more people wanting to be fast jet pilots than the crew for another ship or two.

 

[Takao]

I'm sure DFR would be much happier to be asked to find 28 more people wanting to be fast jet pilots than the crew for another ship or two.

Possibly. Although I bet they have to interview similar amounts of people to get the final result. As hard as MTs, ETs and PWOs are to find, fighter pilots are even harder. And their wastage rates are greater.

 

[devo99]

Possibly. Although I bet they have to interview similar amounts of people to get the final result. As hard as MTs, ETs and PWOs are to find, fighter pilots are even harder. And their wastage rates are greater.

As I've heard it the lines for Navy roles are empty relative to anything in Army and Air Force. On the upside for me they seem to have sped up the intake process for priority roles compared to two years ago.

 

[StevoJH]

Possibly. Although I bet they have to interview similar amounts of people to get the final result. As hard as MTs, ETs and PWOs are to find, fighter pilots are even harder. And their wastage rates are greater.

I suppose in the worst case scenario you increase the size of the training pipeline and accept a higher washout rate.

And if they get more people passing then they expect, well I’m sure the airforce would love to have that problem.

Roughly how many pilots would be assigned per squadron? I assume you would have more pilots than airframes.

Saying that, realistically a program to replace the Super Hornets and Growlers probably needs to be started within the next 5 years, they are already 15-ish years old. Is F-35 the correct platform? Possibly not.

Edit: we are in the Wrong Thread

 

[Anthony_B_78]

I suppose in the worst case scenario you increase the size of the training pipeline and accept a higher washout rate.

And if they get more people passing then they expect, well I’m sure the airforce would love to have that problem.

Roughly how many pilots would be assigned per squadron? I assume you would have more pilots than airframes.

From what we've seen in open-source literature, I'd say not many more. Maybe 16 pilots to a squadron with 14 F-35s. There was actually an initiative in one of the reports to increase how many pilots the RAAF has in combat squadrons. For comparison, the USAF has long had a ratio of four pilots to three aircraft, plus the officer commanding. (i.e. A 24-aircraft squadron would have 33 pilots, while an 18-aircraft one would have 25.)

Edit to add: Page 61 of the 2024 Integrated Investment Program says they want to increase the capability of training systems for pilots and so forth to increase the numbers of qualified personnel.

 

[Armchair]

The core crew of the hunter class is no larger than the ANZAC actual and less than the Hobart's.

The SEA 3000 frigates will similar or much smaller crews.

Remembering also, the Hobart's will be going through extensive upgrades freeing up some crew.

Maybe use emulators and simulators on the Arafuras and LHDs to get more combat systems operators, and PWOs trained for major fleet units.

Same with maintainers.

the idea of the emulators is interesting. Presumably though the Hobart upgrades would be completed before extra Hunters could become available. The Hobarts being out of service means they also provide fewer at-sea training opportunities with some of the actual systems to be used on Hunter.

I still think it is a useful bar to set for discussions of additional capability. Commenters are happy to propose extra expenditure but the true limit is finding trained personnel for the timely use of the asset (which I accept you are addressing).

 

[StingrayOZ]

Please move the F-35/SH stuff to the RAAF thread.

 

[DDG38]

Meanwhile, in the present day Navy, HMAS Choules sailed from Brisbane to rescue a Lithuanian rower who was attempting to row across the Pacific.
Ocean rower Aurimas Mockus stranded by cyclone off Australia’s east coast safely rescued
"On 01 March 2025, Defence accepted a request from the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) to support a search and rescue operation approximately 740km east of Mackay, QLD, after concerns were raised for the safety of a solo occupied rowboat. The vessel is in close proximity to Severe Tropical Cyclone Alfred. Defence has dispatched a Royal Australian Air Force P-8A Poseidon aircraft from RAAF Base Edinburgh in South Australia, and the Royal Australian Navy ship HMAS Choules from Brisbane to assist in the AMSA –led operation." Image source : ADF Image Library

Video of the seas she had to sail through to conduct the rescue : HMAS Choules in rough seas during a search and rescue mission.

 

[SammyC]

Agree, I’d also like to see Austal move past the Evolved Capes and build something a bit bigger and more capable, an OCV for duel BF/RAN use.
You could get overseas yards to help out.

Eg

Team Vigilance | Next Generation Naval Vessel

Team Vigilance is a collaboration between Vard Marine, Ontario Shipyards, Thales Canada, SH Defence, and Fincantieri. The Vigilance Next Generation Naval Vessel was launched at CANSEC 2023. It is tailored to the future needs of the Royal Canadian Navy and aims to replace the Kingston Class...

www.teamvigilance.com

(My attempt to move back onto a naval theme and away from those pesky flying things).

I think this is an interesting point Reptilia. Despite the issues with the Arafura class, I view there is a need for a hardened OPV type vessel. We just don't know it yet.

We have a massive near ocean to protect, extending all the way out to Norfolk Island, and down to Antarctica and as far west as Herd Island. Like it or not, either we increase our presence in the Pacific Islands or China will. Locally run Guardians will get overwhelmed in the not too distant future.

I think we will find out the hard way over the next 12 months that China has a very capable blue water navy that can be in lots of places at once, and their ocean going fishing fleet can act like a locust swarm wherever it wants.

I suspect as the current constabulary workload (primarily illegal fishing and immigration, plus search and rescue), morphs more into territorial enforcement (para military, maritime militia, military patrols) our frigates will get pulled back into coast guarding duties out of sheer necessity.

So as soon as we get really good warfighting platforms they will get sucked into local protection. Hugely expensive, and stops us doing other things like maintaining international sea lanes or escorting high value assets. Just what China wants. Tie us down in our own area.

An OPV, appropriately hardened, could do this workload, unfortunately a Cape could not.

I get the argument these cannot take on Chinese type 55s, but that is not the mission.

At the moment there is no impetus to change, however with China now electing to cause a problem in our back yard (I expect this to get worse), I can see a changing requirement. It will be interesting to see how this gets reflected in the next National Defence Strategy if/when we see a stronger Chinese presence in our local waters. In gerneral I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see significant and rapid change in each new NDS release as the situation deteriorates.

My personal crystal ball (not always accurate) says that the Arafuras will suddenly become highly valuable and the armchair critics (of which I will be one) will bemoan not having 12, and not having them better equipped.

It might spur a look at something a bit more robust, say an updated RN River Class. Perhaps a third batch with a collapsable hangar for proper helo work. It has the range and speed to intercept and ability to work in rough seas for long patrols. And it is tough enough to cope with passive/agressive behaviour. And small enough crew to not be too burdensome on the fleet.

I think this goes with more P8s and Tritons, perhaps with basing or at least refuelling off some of our islands (Norfolk and Christmas)

 

[Reptilia]

(My attempt to move back onto a naval theme and away from those pesky flying things).

I think this is an interesting point Reptilia. Despite the issues with the Arafura class, I view there is a need for a hardened OPV type vessel. We just don't know it yet.

We have a massive near ocean to protect, extending all the way out to Norfolk Island, and down to Antarctica and as far west as Herd Island. Like it or not, either we increase our presence in the Pacific Islands or China will. Locally run Guardians will get overwhelmed in the not too distant future.

I think we will find out the hard way over the next 12 months that China has a very capable blue water navy that can be in lots of places at once, and their ocean going fishing fleet can act like a locust swarm wherever it wants.

I suspect as the current constabulary workload (primarily illegal fishing and immigration, plus search and rescue), morphs more into territorial enforcement (para military, maritime militia, military patrols) our frigates will get pulled back into coast guarding duties out of sheer necessity.

So as soon as we get really good warfighting platforms they will get sucked into local protection. Hugely expensive, and stops us doing other things like maintaining international sea lanes or escorting high value assets. Just what China wants. Tie us down in our own area.

An OPV, appropriately hardened, could do this workload, unfortunately a Cape could not.

I get the argument these cannot take on Chinese type 55s, but that is not the mission.

At the moment there is no impetus to change, however with China now electing to cause a problem in our back yard (I expect this to get worse), I can see a changing requirement. It will be interesting to see how this gets reflected in the next National Defence Strategy if/when we see a stronger Chinese presence in our local waters. In gerneral I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see significant and rapid change in each new NDS release as the situation deteriorates.

My personal crystal ball (not always accurate) says that the Arafuras will suddenly become highly valuable and the armchair critics (of which I will be one) will bemoan not having 12, and not having them better equipped.

It might spur a look at something a bit more robust, say an updated RN River Class. Perhaps a third batch with a collapsable hangar for proper helo work. It has the range and speed to intercept and ability to work in rough seas for long patrols. And it is tough enough to cope with passive/agressive behaviour. And small enough crew to not be too burdensome on the fleet.

I think this goes with more P8s and Tritons, perhaps with basing or at least refuelling off some of our islands (Norfolk and Christmas)

The Japanese have an opv program coming up, looking forward to seeing those. Not much info atm.

 

[SammyC]

The Japanese have an opv program coming up, looking forward to seeing those. Not much info atm.

Yep they could be another option. They align with the OCV concept, bordering on the corvette, but with patrol boat sized crews.

 

[Reptilia]

Yep they could be another option. They align with the OCV concept, bordering on the corvette, but with patrol boat sized crews.

Gives you some idea of what the new design looks like…
Around 95m, highly automated >20-30 crew, 30mm main gun, room for SSM, full hangar and seperate platform for containerised equipment with crane. Range unknown, speed 20+ knts.

 

[SammyC]

I think these cost US80m in the Japanese budget, so also very cheap. About twice the price of a modern cape for a lot more capability.

Could be an interesting auxiliary build in Henderson if the GPF goes to the Mogami, although this OPV is I believe to be built by JMU, a competitor to MHI.

 

[iambuzzard]

Meanwhile, in the present day Navy, HMAS Choules sailed from Brisbane to rescue a Lithuanian rower who was attempting to row across the Pacific.
Ocean rower Aurimas Mockus stranded by cyclone off Australia’s east coast safely rescued
"On 01 March 2025, Defence accepted a request from the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) to support a search and rescue operation approximately 740km east of Mackay, QLD, after concerns were raised for the safety of a solo occupied rowboat. The vessel is in close proximity to Severe Tropical Cyclone Alfred. Defence has dispatched a Royal Australian Air Force P-8A Poseidon aircraft from RAAF Base Edinburgh in South Australia, and the Royal Australian Navy ship HMAS Choules from Brisbane to assist in the AMSA –led operation." Image source : ADF Image Library
View attachment 52388
Video of the seas she had to sail through to conduct the rescue : HMAS Choules in rough seas during a search and rescue mission.

Nice to see Sea Whiz up front.

 

[iambuzzard]

(My attempt to move back onto a naval theme and away from those pesky flying things).

I think this is an interesting point Reptilia. Despite the issues with the Arafura class, I view there is a need for a hardened OPV type vessel. We just don't know it yet.

We have a massive near ocean to protect, extending all the way out to Norfolk Island, and down to Antarctica and as far west as Herd Island. Like it or not, either we increase our presence in the Pacific Islands or China will. Locally run Guardians will get overwhelmed in the not too distant future.

I think we will find out the hard way over the next 12 months that China has a very capable blue water navy that can be in lots of places at once, and their ocean going fishing fleet can act like a locust swarm wherever it wants.

I suspect as the current constabulary workload (primarily illegal fishing and immigration, plus search and rescue), morphs more into territorial enforcement (para military, maritime militia, military patrols) our frigates will get pulled back into coast guarding duties out of sheer necessity.

So as soon as we get really good warfighting platforms they will get sucked into local protection. Hugely expensive, and stops us doing other things like maintaining international sea lanes or escorting high value assets. Just what China wants. Tie us down in our own area.

An OPV, appropriately hardened, could do this workload, unfortunately a Cape could not.

I get the argument these cannot take on Chinese type 55s, but that is not the mission.

At the moment there is no impetus to change, however with China now electing to cause a problem in our back yard (I expect this to get worse), I can see a changing requirement. It will be interesting to see how this gets reflected in the next National Defence Strategy if/when we see a stronger Chinese presence in our local waters. In gerneral I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see significant and rapid change in each new NDS release as the situation deteriorates.

My personal crystal ball (not always accurate) says that the Arafuras will suddenly become highly valuable and the armchair critics (of which I will be one) will bemoan not having 12, and not having them better equipped.

It might spur a look at something a bit more robust, say an updated RN River Class. Perhaps a third batch with a collapsable hangar for proper helo work. It has the range and speed to intercept and ability to work in rough seas for long patrols. And it is tough enough to cope with passive/agressive behaviour. And small enough crew to not be too burdensome on the fleet.

I think this goes with more P8s and Tritons, perhaps with basing or at least refuelling off some of our islands (Norfolk and Christmas)

That's a good call on the River class, Sammy. They're small enough and robust enough, but have the range to be suitable for our region.
We are certainly in uncharted waters with China upping the ante.
If we go down that path they will need a medium calibre gun and at least a decent self defence capability, either fire and forget missiles like RAM or Phalanx. They have to be affordable enough to build in quantity and capable of mixing it with something like a Coast Guard cutter.

 

[iambuzzard]

The Japanese have an opv program coming up, looking forward to seeing those. Not much info atm.

Keep us posted Reptilia.

 

[iambuzzard]

Gives you some idea of what the new design looks like…
Around 95m, highly automated >20-30 crew, 30mm main gun, room for SSM, full hangar and seperate platform for containerised equipment with crane. Range unknown, speed 20+ knts.

Thanks

 

[StevoJH]

That's a good call on the River class, Sammy. They're small enough and robust enough, but have the range to be suitable for our region.
We are certainly in uncharted waters with China upping the ante.
If we go down that path they will need a medium calibre gun and at least a decent self defence capability, either fire and forget missiles like RAM or Phalanx. They have to be affordable enough to build in quantity and capable of mixing it with something like a Coast Guard cutter.

Surely something like the 40mm Bofors Naval mount should be sufficient? Big enough for programable ammunition.

And if they had a hanger, having the space/weight and possibly being prewired for Phalanx or SeaRAM up top should be more th sufficient.

I don’t think an OPV needs to be able to stand on a gun line. And I’m assuming going for a 127mm mount would significantly increase crew requirements.

Even though the Arafura class is possibly overtaken by events, I think reducing the class to 6 ships was probably a mistake purely down to the fact that they *should* theoretically be quite quick to build. I just wish they had a hanger.