NZDF General discussion thread

[jbc388]

If NZ is facing a taskforce including a carrier and the preverbal has hit the fan sufficiently that we are launching P8s fully armed and with permissions to engage then it seems almost impossible that our ANZAC neighbour will not also have skin in the game and so a supporting F35 force or SSN could be assumed to be involved to address the risk posed by a carrier. We would not be acting alone so why would we structure our defence spend to have a little of everything rather than doubling down on what we know we can do and do well that supports a coalition approach.

Except Kiwi P-8s are not fully armed we don't have any anti ship missles at all!! (well only the penguin, but that is too stort ranged!!) that should be one of the first items procured ASAP!! to give the RNZAF some offensive capability!!

 

[Rob c]

f NZ is facing a taskforce including a carrier and the preverbal has hit the fan sufficiently that we are launching P8s fully armed and with permissions to engage then it seems almost impossible that our ANZAC neighbour will not also have skin in the game and so a supporting F35 force or SSN could be assumed to be involved to address the risk posed by a carrier.

An attack on NZ would likely be in conjunction with an attack on Australia either concurrently or previously so they would be very busy protecting themselves, as they have a huge area to defend with only a modest force to do it and any help from elsewhere could be some time away so an initial defence ability to protect ourselves is required until help does arrive. This because help could be some time away, depending on the overall strategic situation. The US at this point in time cannot be relied on, Japan and Korea could have the aggressor between them and us, and European help would take significant time. So we need to be able to look after ourselves at least initially.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Understanding naval warfare requires understanding modern naval weapons

LRASM have a 200nm range.
The HHQ-9Bs on the Communist Type 055 cruiser have a 100nm range.
The HQ-16s on the Communist Type 054A frigates a 25nm range.

Check out those ranges...Our Poseidon's launch LRASM at 200nm well outside the 100nm range of the Communist warships to engage our aircraft.

Modern technology has turned MPA's into excellent maritime strike aircraft.
One can argue that there has never been a more capable MPA than the Poseidon.
We don't need to waste resources/personnel/money purchasing an unnecessary imaginary strike force.
We simply need to arm our P-8s (and increase their number.)

Not an expert but I have long agreed with the line of thought you have clearly outlined above. I acknowledge other have made good arguments for fast strike. People are cought up with platform vs platform without considering standoff range, low observability etc of ranged munitions.

We have to weigh up the costs and feasibility of more p8s with LRASMs vs a new fleet of fast air with LRASMs and all the cost time and political capital needed to achieve it.


Ideally with >2% GDP we could work towards both. I still think a handful of sea guardians (forward deployed to Fiji etc) would be a useful affordable way of stretching out our maritime surveillance. And of course... More frigates.

 

[Hawkeye69]

Not an expert but I have long agreed with the line of thought you have clearly outlined above. I acknowledge other have made good arguments for fast strike. People are cought up with platform vs platform without considering standoff range, low observability etc of ranged munitions.

We have to weigh up the costs and feasibility of more p8s with LRASMs vs a new fleet of fast air with LRASMs and all the cost time and political capital needed to achieve it.


Ideally with >2% GDP we could work towards both. I still think a handful of sea guardians (forward deployed to Fiji etc) would be a useful affordable way of stretching out our maritime surveillance. And of course... More frigates.

Agreed with Sea Guardian, they just successfully dropped sonabouys from one, very handy piece of kit.

Chinas ambassador to Australia stated Australia needs to get use to Chinese warships of their coast as plenty more will be regular visitors down this way.

 

[jbc388]

Agreed with Sea Guardian, they just successfully dropped sonabouys from one, very handy piece of kit.

Chinas ambassador to Australia stated Australia needs to get use to Chinese warships of their coast as plenty more will be regular visitors down this way.

New Zealand needs to purchase 2x P-8s ASAP to bring the fleet up to 6, then alongside 6 x Sea Guardians, also LRASMs ,12 x MH-60Rs, 2 x OPVs that are fitted out with a decent weapons/sensor systems eg VLS, MH-60R etc then 4 x Frigates again with VLS including antiship missiles, anti air eg SM series etc etc.
Which gives the navy some offensive punch and more Mass/force when needed!!!
The RNZAF needs 3 x C-130J, 16 x T6's some for training x 4, most used for light strike, COIN Sqn which at least gives an option we don't have!! also replace the plastic NH-90s with 18-20 of the latest MH-60s able to then do more tasks than currently!! 9 x AW109x as training/light rotary transport for a total of 14 airframes.
The army needs a 3rd RF batt, replace light 105 arty with the Archer system far more mobile, longer ranged, then Anti Air/drone systems ASAP, More anti armour kit, then look at replacing the LAV III's with what Oz has bought!!
Update comms gear, increase Support units size add 2000 pers to the army give it some actual mass!! to be able fight well!!
Sort out thehousing/wages ASAP
This would be a very good start in the next 2-5 years.
If new equipment such as the above was purchased they may find recruitment might be a bit easier due to modern gear/not looking like run down broken force(with an actual lack of force!!)

 

[Xthenaki]

What do you reckon the cost would be ?

 

[jbc388]

What do you reckon the cost would be ?

The cost would be north of $25 Billion but the purchases will be spread out over 10 years, but the longer the government that is in power leaves this the more expensive it will cost and then we will go back to what has happened over the last 25-30 years, nothing gets done!!