Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

MARKMILES77

Well-Known Member
Preview of a new one hour Documentary coming out about AUKUS with a significant part of the programme spent onboard a Collins Class Sub.
Documentary is called "INTO THE DEEP".
Will be released on January 25th.

 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Trump was always going to support AUKUS as soon as he had it explained to him what the US was getting out of it. Not just the money for the US shipyards but also purchases of the combat control system, which are going in both the RN and RAN submarines.
It would an even better deal for all three partners if Trump wasn’t POTUS. He WILL fraud the UK, Australia, and the USN given his track record.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
It would an even better deal for all three partners if Trump wasn’t POTUS. He WILL fraud the UK, Australia, and the USN given his track record.
I feel the same. Trump is more a businessman than anything else. I honestly believe that his motivation for insisting that America’s allies spend more on defence is that it will generate more money for the US defence industry and possibly even allow the US to cut its own spending.

If anything he is likely to pressure Australia to buy even more boats from the US at premium prices possibly willing to stab the Brits in the back in the process.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I feel the same. Trump is more a businessman than anything else. I honestly believe that his motivation for insisting that America’s allies spend more on defence is that it will generate more money for the US defence industry and possibly even allow the US to cut its own spending.

If anything he is likely to pressure Australia to buy even more boats from the US at premium prices possibly willing to stab the Brits in the back in the process.
On a positive note, he will gone before any additional defence investments (excluding SSNs) happen. There is still the risk of MAGA fools running things once he becomes worm food or green house gas.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I suspect AUKUS will be a model Trump pushes with other allies. The American benefit (or more precisely what Trump sees as the benefit) is the investment in American weapon systems and American factories, and the continued global dominance of the American military industry.

The principle (and what every other country will be observing) is "commit to American systems and pay for them, and get on Trump's good books". It wouldn't surprise me if we end up agreeing to five Virginia platforms before Trump's term ends. And other American gear such as satellites, more missiles and aircraft despite what our IIR says.

Korea and Japan will almost certainly do likewise and buy more American missiles, planes and Aegis systems to follow the same play book. Taiwan will buy what ever America lets it (to date America has been very restrained on what it sells Taiwan), and given Trump's willingness to sell anything, I suspect Taiwan will drink from the firehose while they can. Israel will do the same. Expect lots of deals to procure American arms from S E Asian nations in the near future.

I would be careful with the view that when Trump goes, America will return to what it was. I would suggest he is a symptom not a cause, and that cause is a fundamental change for the next 30-40 years.

It might be more moderated, however future America is going to continue to expect allied countries to pay for American protection, and to behave more like vassal states if they want that protection. It will be expecting trade surplusses, deals on its terms and its weapons to be purchased.

It may even become difficult for us to continue to have European weapons supplies in the future. The UN will wither, NATO will disband into a European only force (underpinned by its own military industry renaissance) and America will dominate the aliances it want to be involved with (i.e those countries that have something it wants or can be useful in prosecuting its chosen wars).
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
Trump was always going to support AUKUS as soon as he had it explained to him what the US was getting out of it. Not just the money for the US shipyards but also purchases of the combat control system, which are going in both the RN and RAN submarines.
There maybe something in what you say.

I appreciate this is the RAN thread and talking politics can be problematic, but at times it does have relevance.
Trump is moving very very quickly to change the way of governance in the USA domestically and expectations internationally.
His approach will have ramifications on many levels.
His approach is predictably unpredictable and would be comical if it was not so serious.
Australia like many nations will have to balance very carefully prudence,sovereignty,values and our own definitions of self interest when dealing with the current US administration.
This is is going to be a ride like no other with expectations based on existing and former norms of diplomatic behaviour now completely out the door.
We have a lot of dependence on the US for equipment, technology and training.
It’s an understandable situation given our size and history.
Going forward it will be very interesting what price we will pay economically and politically to keep favour with our most important ally.

Will we say yes to everything to appease this US administration to build the kind of Navy we want.

Like a bush fire alert.
I’d suggest the next four years and those that follow are in a watch and act phase.

Troubling times indeed
Regards S
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
He WILL fraud the UK, Australia, and the USN given his track record.
I don't know how Trump could "fraud" anyone. This is someone who folds faster than Superman on laundry day - see the restrictions on de minimis Chinese imports that lasted less than 24 hours. Or the tariffs against Mexico and Canada. He makes a fuss and then backs down, thinking he's made his point and "won", when in reality he could have achieved the same thing by not being so aggressive.

At most Trump will repaint AUKUS and pretend it's a completely different deal he can take exclusive credit for, and it will be 99% the same thing. Like maybe Australia will front-load the subsidies a little more.

This doesn't mean that he won't eventually impose tariffs on various countries, but with AUKUS I'm as sure as I can be about anything that it will survive in good shape.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
On a positive note, he will gone before any additional defence investments (excluding SSNs) happen. There is still the risk of MAGA fools running things once he becomes worm food or green house gas.
What if their plan to change the presidential terms to no more than 1 consecutive 8 year terms gets up?
 
What if their plan to change the presidential terms to no more than 1 consecutive 8 year terms gets up?
It's bluster. The 22nd Amendment to the United States Constitution sets existing term limits and any change to that will require two-thirds majority in both the Senate and the House of Representatives, and ratification by 34 of the 50 states' legislatures. It's not going to happen.

I think we all need to take a lot of Trump's statements with a grain of salt. The more spectacular, the more unlikely, as its consistently just a tactic to get the weak to concede or force people to move or act on an issue.

In some ways, he's predictable. Expect a lot of bluster but work out where he will settle, and in resolution give him the limelight and press as the masterful "deal maker" he is. His attention will quickly move onto the next media opportunity.

Mind you, countries who have bathed and prospered under the US security fabric, yet have abused that by lowering their defense expenditure in favour for social programs should be fearing his wrath, fairly. Collective security only works when shared collectively, and fairly. Why should the US taxpayer subsidise NATO or seemingly allied countries when they the don't take their collective burden seriously? Who needs friends like that, as the weak in conviction end up jumping ship when the going gets tough?

This is a RAN forum, so I am pleased to see us debate increased maritime expenditure and capability as we meet our commitments, linked to our values. I like that we are a team player and will contribute to the collective burden of establishing a strong deterrent to prevent future conflict. That's our burden and responsibility, and if we have to cut spending in other areas to fund it, then so be it. We again live by our values, and where we spend our $ should be linked to values.
 

OldNavy63

Active Member
Not quite the Large Optimally Crewed Surface Combatants (LOCSC) envisioned in the Enhanced Lethality Surface Combatant Fleet plan for the RAN - the Netherlands is introducing their own Loyal Wingman type project, the Rapidly Increased Firepower Capability (Dutch acronym “TRIFIC”, maybe not so TERRIFIC ?).

They have a useful armament for direction by the accompanying FFG’s sensors. However, although I’m no naval architect, the aft mounted containers do nothing to assist the vessels passage in rough seas.

The 325 ton, 53.3 metre vessels are similar in size to the RAN’s Armidale class patrol boats, but have a compliment of between 8 to 14 depending on the weapons and equipment fit.

I’d be taking one step astern when they call for volunteers to crew the vessels.

It would be a bumpy ride, keeping station with a 6,000 ton De Zeven Provincien class FFG, maybe run along in their wake?

(Posted in the RAN thread given the current Government’s plans for LOCSVs)

 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Not quite the Large Optimally Crewed Surface Combatants (LOCSC) envisioned in the Enhanced Lethality Surface Combatant Fleet plan for the RAN - the Netherlands is introducing their own Loyal Wingman type project, the Rapidly Increased Firepower Capability (Dutch acronym “TRIFIC”, maybe not so TERRIFIC ?).

They have a useful armament for direction by the accompanying FFG’s sensors. However, although I’m no naval architect, the aft mounted containers do nothing to assist the vessels passage in rough seas.

The 325 ton, 53.3 metre vessels are similar in size to the RAN’s Armidale class patrol boats, but have a compliment of between 8 to 14 depending on the weapons and equipment fit.

I’d be taking one step astern when they call for volunteers to crew the vessels.

It would be a bumpy ride, keeping station with a 6,000 ton De Zeven Provincien class FFG, maybe run along in their wake?

(Posted in the RAN thread given the current Government’s plans for LOCSVs)

Another approach for a solution to the issue of increasing magazine depth for naval vessels in the modern age. Whether this is better or worse than the USN LUSV/MUSV approach will only be known in time (preferrably before they are used in anger). Whether this approach could work as the RAN's LOCSV would be more influenced by the weapon systems fitted. The Dutch are going to use, according to the article, IAI BARAK-ER and the HARAP loitering munitions for the AA and ASu/Land Attack. Neither of these are even in the picture for RAN. The BARAK is being used as it can be integrated with the CMS on the mother frigate which will use the existing stock of SM-2 BlockIIIA (SM-2 BlockIIICU cannot be used without major modification to the CMS according to the article). The canister for the BARAK is supposed to be raised verticle before launch which would likely affect the stability of the vessel in rough seas and heavy weather. Hopefully the 2 containers for the electronics etc shown at the stern will be relocated to a more suitable position in the real implementation of the vessel.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Axe bows are fine heading in to a moderate sea. They are of little benefit in cross seas, and from my experience very uncomfortable in quartering seas - but then most things are. In a sea from astern, and apart from the possibility of pooping with consequent damage to the low freeboard stern, they seem to lack longitudinal stability, probably due to the shallow rise aft.

Probably OK in most conditions in the North Sea, but they would be pushed to keep up with mush larger ships in the sea conditions frequently found elsewhere - unless you are comfortable with them becoming semi submersibles! Interesting way to go - although the range is much too short for our part of the world, particularly if they have no RAS(L) capability. I would expect any RAN LOCSV would need to be in excess of 80 metres in length and 1000 tons for our sea conditions.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I just wanted to wake you all up!!! It's been very quiet on here for a few days.
Any more scuttlebutt on the GPF?
Cheers,
Buzzard (Daryl)
I was wondering the same thing.
I think we will have to wait for the next budget, which is soon. (25th of March)
I actually thought that the Govt might call an election before the budget is due, so they could avoid delivering a budget with a deficit, however, it is looking like they might do the responsible thing and own it however it goes.
I would think that the GPF would be included in this budget,, but it might not be, which would make the deficit that little bit smaller!
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Apparently final submissions for the fine details aren't in yet.


I seem to recall reading recently that Mogami was coming down for a visit and exercises.
Kym obviously didn't have his morning coffee before writing that article.
 
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