Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[old faithful]

I don't care what demographic someone is recruited from, as long as they are the best person for the job.
When recruiters are told to recruit only from one demographic, to even out numbers or for what ever reason, then the recruitment process is flawed.
We have a population of 27 million, and we can't recruit @ 10,000 to fill vacant positions?
I don't believe that we CANT. I do believe that either the will is not there to employ people, or the process is useless and needs to be fixed asap, not some "review", but fixed here and now.

 

[swerve]

While I think the recruiting process is broken, largely because of an incredibly stupid decision some years ago to outsource much of it, Navy at least isn’t recruiting to gender targets as its principal determinant. I’m not sure that it would be Army policy to; but on the other hand policy gets interpreted on the ground; and because of the aforementioned incredibly stupid decision it is not necessarily interpreted by people who actually understand what is wanted.

British army recruitment was outsourced to Capita. I used to work for Capita, & if they'd asked me, I'd have told them that could be considered treason. It's not turned out well. The processing of applications is a mess.
The Army’s ‘Recruitment Crisis’ is Not Just an IT Failure

It's not all Capita's fault, but choosing Capita to implement it was a large part of the mess.

Capita has many good people working for it, but in my experience they're held back by the organisation. I remember our customers acting to protect us from our senior management, for example. Everyone in our office knew that one of our directors tried to blame the people doing a particular job for things going wrong, & the customers told him that was untrue, & it was because they were overworked & under-resourced, & they knew this because they had staff working alongside them. That was typical.

When I resigned, my boss rather anxiously asked me if I had a job to go to, & when I said yes, he was relieved. He was worried that I was so pissed-off that I'd quit without finding anything else. Nobody liked the company. I've never worked anywhere else where the staff were so demoralised.

Oh, & when I amalgamated my collection of old company pensions into one, three were sorted out very quickly - & the Capita one (run by Capita, not an outside provider) took forever. Also typical . . .

 

[Bob53]

Oh please, if you're going to use that BS talking point then at least provide some data to prove why you think "DEI" (not an Australian term) is somehow causing the recruitment crisis in the ADF. I'll wait.

Only comments here that young abled bodied people are being left waiting and waiting and other comments here stating that the quality if recruits being accepted at times to meet certain quotas. Read the comment #11549 I was responding to. Not accepting female recruits quite clearly stated … the original objective of diversity has been heavily compromised. It was to reverse a position that females can’t do this or than and give them a fair go. That then evolved into targets and that evolved into exclusion unless you were that particular target audience…. just to meet a target..which is stupid and highway to the bottom.

and it’s not an Australian term…who told you that? Diversity, Equality and inclusion was being pumped in gov HR departments including Aussie Post from the late 90s.

 

[ADMk2]

I don't care what demographic someone is recruited from, as long as they are the best person for the job.
When recruiters are told to recruit only from one demographic, to even out numbers or for what ever reason, then the recruitment process is flawed.
We have a population of 27 million, and we can't recruit @ 10,000 to fill vacant positions?
I don't believe that we CANT. I do believe that either the will is not there to employ people, or the process is useless and needs to be fixed asap, not some "review", but fixed here and now.

ADF had over 80,000 applicants for the year 2023/2024.

Apparently less than 1 in ten met ADF’s “standards” because only some 6-7k were actually recruited, falling short of our targets.

The demographics aren’t the problem. ADF’s recruiting processes / policies, training pipelines / processes and postings are the entire problem.

On top of which, we have a generation of service people leaving because all the gigs are over. Going back to train against “Kamarians” doesn’t seem to be so appealing to those who have substantial operational experience.

Accordingly we have an attrition problem.

 

[protoplasm]

ADF had over 80,000 applicants for the year 2023/2024.

Apparently less than 1 in ten met ADF’s “standards” because only some 6-7k were actually recruited, falling short of our targets.

The demographics aren’t the problem. ADF’s recruiting processes / policies, training pipelines / processes and postings are the entire problem.

Personal experience, as someone who is guiding young people towards ADF entry. Multiple 18 and 19 year olds over the last 3 years were willing, fit, met the standards and were accepted. BUT, the process took over 12 months for most. The vast majority had already moved on to other things and had accepted other placements.

The ADF is losing higher calibre recruits to other companies or universities because it takes too long to get in. If this isn’t fixed recruitment will never meet the needs of the ADF. What is most frustrating is that this is not hard to fix, just adjust the system so that it’ll work for those exiting schooling/apprenticeships/degrees, rather than actively working against it.

Why it takes over 12 months to bring in an infantry recruit is unfathomable.

 

[Sandson41]

How many induction courses does the ADF hold each year? What's the max number per course? What do they do with the excess applicants?

I can't find the answers with a quick Google.

I imagine the year long wait is for a slot to become available, but I'm speculating...

 

[Volkodav]

Personal experience, as someone who is guiding young people towards ADF entry. Multiple 18 and 19 year olds over the last 3 years were willing, fit, met the standards and were accepted. BUT, the process took over 12 months for most. The vast majority had already moved on to other things and had accepted other placements.

The ADF is losing higher calibre recruits to other companies or universities because it takes too long to get in. If this isn’t fixed recruitment will never meet the needs of the ADF. What is most frustrating is that this is not hard to fix, just adjust the system so that it’ll work for those exiting schooling/apprenticeships/degrees, rather than actively working against it.

Why it takes over 12 months to bring in an infantry recruit is unfathomable.

This is what it was like in the early 90s.

I was selected then had intakes delayed or cancelled and eventually had to commit to other things just to keep my life ticking along.

I (and many others) investigated multiple pathways delayed and even turned down very good, non ADF options aiming for the career we wanted.

I made decisions in my career and education aimed at a military career that I'm still paying the price for today.

The thing is, it was the ADF running recruiting back then.

These days I've seen people fast tracked in because they are coached and mentored by people in the know. It's not what you know, or how good you are, it's who you know.

 

[ADMk2]

Personal experience, as someone who is guiding young people towards ADF entry. Multiple 18 and 19 year olds over the last 3 years were willing, fit, met the standards and were accepted. BUT, the process took over 12 months for most. The vast majority had already moved on to other things and had accepted other placements.

The ADF is losing higher calibre recruits to other companies or universities because it takes too long to get in. If this isn’t fixed recruitment will never meet the needs of the ADF. What is most frustrating is that this is not hard to fix, just adjust the system so that it’ll work for those exiting schooling/apprenticeships/degrees, rather than actively working against it.

Why it takes over 12 months to bring in an infantry recruit is unfathomable.

100%. 16 weeks to train them as an infantry soldier but 12 months to recruit? It’s an absolute joke. The fact that the brass or the Minister won’t quickly address this, shows how seriously they are really taking this issue, whatever their words might be.

 

[Bob53]

ADF had over 80,000 applicants for the year 2023/2024.

Apparently less than 1 in ten met ADF’s “standards” because only some 6-7k were actually recruited, falling short of our targets.

The demographics aren’t the problem. ADF’s recruiting processes / policies, training pipelines / processes and postings are the entire problem.

On top of which, we have a generation of service people leaving because all the gigs are over. Going back to train against “Kamarians” doesn’t seem to be so appealing to those who have substantial operational experience.

Accordingly we have an attrition problem.

Wasn’t the post above saying they were only taking females for certain roles? 80 thousand applicants? that’s a lot. 1 in ten meeting the standards seems low ( you would think they might know the required standards before applying) but that would be 8000 recruits a year?

 

[protoplasm]

Wasn’t the post above saying they were only taking females for certain roles? 80 thousand applicants? that’s a lot. 1 in ten meeting the standards seems low ( you would think they might know the required standards before applying) but that would be 8000 recruits a year?

Many more than that meet the standards, but don't go in that year because they have been screwed around by the recruiting process, wait waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long and then accept something else and move forward with life. They then get an email advising that they have been successful, but have already commenced something else, and are lost to the ADF.

In any given year the ADF doesn't take all the applicants who meet the standards, they only get those who meet the standards and who are willing to wait around whilst ADF recruiting moves at a snail's pace. The best ones won't wait around for an organisation that is demonstrating that it doesn't care about them or their future.

 

[old faithful]

This is what it was like in the early 90s.

I was selected then had intakes delayed or cancelled and eventually had to commit to other things just to keep my life ticking along.

I (and many others) investigated multiple pathways delayed and even turned down very good, non ADF options aiming for the career we wanted.

I made decisions in my career and education aimed at a military career that I'm still paying the price for today.

The thing is, it was the ADF running recruiting back then.

These days I've seen people fast tracked in because they are coached and mentored by people in the know. It's not what you know, or how good you are, it's who you know.

What part of the 90s Volk?
I enlisted in 85, 1 St time. Pretty easy and straight forward.
I got out in 88 and rejoined in 1990.
In 1990, it was very difficult.
There were over 100 of us that tested.
5 of us were accepted, and all of us were re enlisted. 1 was ex Navy, he went to RAE.
I was already para qualified, and only given 1 choice as a para rigger (I only gave them 12 months before returning to 3 RAR).
Point is, the recruitment cycle, particularly during the recession, was terrible, there was absolutely no money in the system for a lot of the early 90s.
Now we are being told that the G.O.D. wants to boost numbers but can't find them.
The numbers are there to be recruited, but recruiting is a total cluster at the moment.
It's the same with my current job, out sourced now, and we can't get people because they are targeting the wrong demographic (age in our case). They trying to recruit the wrong age group, too young.

 

[spoz]

How many induction courses does the ADF hold each year? What's the max number per course? What do they do with the excess applicants?

I can't find the answers with a quick Google.

I imagine the year long wait is for a slot to become available, but I'm speculating...

The “ADF” does not hold “induction” courses; and please DO NOT suggest it should, as all that would do is add to ineffective time. Each of the Services, Navy, Army and Air Force runs their own recruit training. To take the RAN example, the initial recruit course lasts 10 weeks and there are four or five of them a year. Recruit School (easily found on Google) graduates about 1000 Seamen per year.

After that, they go to category courses - some short, some long (up to a year). The other two services do similar things, but tailored to their requirements. And, each of the Services has individual needs of the recruiting process. Which, as many others have noted, on hearsay evidence at least is not performing particularly well.

 

[Sandson41]

The “ADF” does not hold “induction” courses; and please DO NOT suggest it should, as all that would do is add to ineffective time. Each of the Services, Navy, Army and Air Force runs their own recruit training. To take the RAN example, the initial recruit course lasts 10 weeks and there are four or five of them a year. Recruit School (easily found on Google) graduates about 1000 Seamen per year.

After that, they go to category courses - some short, some long (up to a year). The other two services do similar things, but tailored to their requirements. And, each of the Services has individual needs of the recruiting process. Which, as many others have noted, on hearsay evidence at least is not performing particularly well.

Yes, yes, I meant the army. Oops.
No one is suggesting ADF-level recruitment.

If the army isn't training at capacity (still can't find any hard numbers, just recruitment blurb, so a link would be nice) then delays are inexcusible indeed.

EDIT: Article on The Strategist today...

Too slow and too picky: Defence recruiting isn’t fit for purpose | The Strategist

 

[Armchair]

Yes, yes, I meant the army. Oops.
No one is suggesting ADF-level recruitment.

If the army isn't training at capacity (still can't find any hard numbers, just recruitment blurb, so a link would be nice) then delays are inexcusible indeed.

EDIT: Article on The Strategist today...

Too slow and too picky: Defence recruiting isn’t fit for purpose | The Strategist

Quite a good overview in the article but I was not convinced by the author’s argument that ADF salaries are already generous (on the basis that many approach / exceed median Oz salary). In the case of the army, the mass of it is to be concentrated in far northern regional locations (plus Brisbane) where there are limited partner employment opportunities, the work (including training) is arduous and dangerous, and all the roles require years of training and include many skills that are in demand in the private sector. All of that adds a premium. Added to that the earning capacity of Australian soldiers from overseas deployments for the last 25 years is (hopefully) going to decline.

 

[jeffb]

Only comments here that young abled bodied people are being left waiting and waiting and other comments here stating that the quality if recruits being accepted at times to meet certain quotas. Read the comment #11549 I was responding to. Not accepting female recruits quite clearly stated … the original objective of diversity has been heavily compromised. It was to reverse a position that females can’t do this or than and give them a fair go. That then evolved into targets and that evolved into exclusion unless you were that particular target audience…. just to meet a target..which is stupid and highway to the bottom.

and it’s not an Australian term…who told you that? Diversity, Equality and inclusion was being pumped in gov HR departments including Aussie Post from the late 90s.

Has anyone seen evidence of positions reserved for females or diversity in Defence? Any evidence of the ADF passing over "young able-bodied" people due to quotas?

I've seen aspirational goals and targets but never anything like suggested. There is no exclusion based on a "target audience" that I have seen.

I think an answer that might be closer to the truth is the ADF is very risk-averse due to duty of care to soldiers once they have enlisted. Potentially the 12 month average wait is an old tactic to make sure the recruit actually wants to be there and it's not just a spur of the moment decision.

The ADF also has limited capacity to train new soldiers, you could do some quick math but I'm not too sure that 8-10k would be that far off the mark for all services at max capacity. Then the problem of getting them into units, getting them settled, giving job satisfaction and retaining them. How many "new hires" can an organisation take on a year without damaging it significantly? 10%? 20%?

 

[old faithful]

Has anyone seen evidence of positions reserved for females or diversity in Defence? Any evidence of the ADF passing over "young able-bodied" people due to quotas?

I've seen aspirational goals and targets but never anything like suggested. There is no exclusion based on a "target audience" that I have seen.

I think an answer that might be closer to the truth is the ADF is very risk-averse due to duty of care to soldiers once they have enlisted. Potentially the 12 month average wait is an old tactic to make sure the recruit actually wants to be there and it's not just a spur of the moment decision.

The ADF also has limited capacity to train new soldiers, you could do some quick math but I'm not too sure that 8-10k would be that far off the mark for all services at max capacity. Then the problem of getting them into units, getting them settled, giving job satisfaction and retaining them. How many "new hires" can an organisation take on a year without damaging it significantly? 10%? 20%?

While this report does not directly back up my claims, it represent the time period that 2 able badied young men were rejected due to RAINF recruiting females at the time.
It also corresponds with a gender diversity award that the ADF won at the time.

Transparency Portal

Transparency portal

www.transparency.gov.au

 

[jeffb]

Let's not confuse Defence offering more flexible entry pathways to females with Defence excluding men. Especially considering some of those successful pathways have since been opened up to everyone.

I'm not saying there's nothing broken with recruiting but pointing to a report that's saying Defence is doing a good job in specific areas and using that to conclude something negative seems a little strange. There is something broken at DFR/ADF Careers, the passage of information to applicants being a big one. Did ADF Careers tell these two young men "Nope, wrong gender mate" or were they sitting in the lobby talking to a young lady applying for an open combat ECN rather than 343 when they got knocked back?

 

[old faithful]

Let's not confuse Defence offering more flexible entry pathways to females with Defence excluding men. Especially considering some of those successful pathways have since been opened up to everyone.

I'm not saying there's nothing broken with recruiting but pointing to a report that's saying Defence is doing a good job in specific areas and using that to conclude something negative seems a little strange. There is something broken at DFR/ADF Careers, the passage of information to applicants being a big one. Did ADF Careers tell these two young men "Nope, wrong gender mate" or were they sitting in the lobby talking to a young lady applying for an open combat ECN rather than 343 when they got knocked back?

Look, I really don't want to keep harping on about this.
2 men applied to join RAINF.
Both were told no, RAINF is only recruiting females AT THE MOMENT. It was at the time that the ADF announced that 1RAR had its first female sub unit, and they were filling it as well as giving it media attention.
Had they re applied at a later date, they would have most likely been accepted, however, 1 joined the Police and the other Joined corrections, both in WA.
Never the less, the best candidates need to be accepted, regardless of gender, race etc etc, the best applicants.

 

[jeffb]

Alright I guess we'll just take your word for it. There was some noise back in 2017ish about ADF discriminating against men that was squashed by then minster of defence & some Russian psyops-level stuff from some guy by the name of Bernie Gaynor. There are extra pathways open to females that let them try for a combat role and then if they choose move into something else but we're just going around in circles.

Not trying to wind you up but are two men that got told no, potentially got told to try again in 12 months, and then weren't committed enough to cop that on the chin and try again really the best candidates? I think not...

 

[Volkodav]

Look, I really don't want to keep harping on about this.
2 men applied to join RAINF.
Both were told no, RAINF is only recruiting females AT THE MOMENT. It was at the time that the ADF announced that 1RAR had its first female sub unit, and they were filling it as well as giving it media attention.
Had they re applied at a later date, they would have most likely been accepted, however, 1 joined the Police and the other Joined corrections, both in WA.
Never the less, the best candidates need to be accepted, regardless of gender, race etc etc, the best applicants.

Were they best?

Tall, white and male doesn't mean best, just look at Zachary Rolfe. The army regretted recruiting him, Queensland Police rejected him and NT police wished they'd never heard of him.

On paper, perfect, just what they were looking for, scratch the surface and you find a complete, self centred f'up. He's not the only one, not by a long shot.

There's a few legends in their own lunch time I've worked with over the years. Tall, white, male and convinced of their own perfection, every one of them a self entitled f'up who hurt their colleagues, comrades and those they were meant to protect. Every one of them ended up screwing the pooch because the free ride they had most of their lives left them completely unable cope when real talent, skill and intellect was required.

What people fear with DEI is the reality we need to live with when sub par people get a free ride because they look the part. I went from working in teams of really smart people dealing with high profile, complex problems to teams filled with self entitled dumb F's, screwing up basic stuff. I can tell you for fact, the smart teams dealing with complex, was much more diverse than the DF team, most of them could have been cousins.