6th Generation Fighters Projects

Sixth generation fighters are going to be more expensive that past jet exports, even accounting for inflation. There's only going to be so many countries that can afford GCAP or FCAS.
That's what was said in era of every previous gen that future gen is going to be more expensive than past ones.;)
2nd gen costlier than 1st, 3rd than 2nd, 4th than 3rd, 5th than 4th.
But every country's economy is supposed to get better with time. We all have read Economics in school & college, right? :)

I think it's unlikely that China or Russia would export sixth generation aircraft. As for the Americans, there will probably be a larger market for future upgraded versions of the F-35.
Business cannot die :cool: Why is it so hard for you to see future? What if back in 1980s & 90s before JSF project was revealed, if someone said that it is unlikely USA will make a 5gen export jet? OR what if in era of 2nd/3rd gen someone said that USA is unlikely to export F-15/16/18 :Do_O
But still if any maker country doesn't wan't to compete in market, what can we do? It'll be a straight loss for them.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Breaking Defence has a story stating the recent review of NGAD favours a go ahead and it should be manned. This, along with recent comments that the F-35 buy might be scaled back if emerging technologies show promise, could be bad news for LM, especially if they were to lose the bid to build NGAD. Fortunately for LM, I doubt the USAF has much enthusiasm for the Boeing gong-show. Questions remain about the AETP as well.

Needless to say, Trump and his new jet fighter expert Elon, could trash everything. Then there is the USN program and will NG rethink their level of involvement in both programs, interesting times.

 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Gonna put it up here for the time being although I am unclear if this is considered 6th generation. But yeah, the design carries all the 6th gen characteristics (tailless design, diamond shaped).

There is also a J-20 chase plane which gives a perspective / relative comparison in terms of size.

Video: x.com








 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Apparently, there is a second, competing design from SAC (the previous ones were from CAC) that similarly broke around the same time.

The SAC design appears to be a cranked wing instead of the delta/diamond shape of CAC.



 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
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The very large size (much larger than the F-15 and Su-27 and probably closer to the F-111 and Mirage IV) and the three engines make this design also very special, besides being 6th generation. This can indicate a potential of a very large range and payload capacity.

 

Terran

Well-Known Member
The very large size (much larger than the F-15 and Su-27 and probably closer to the F-111 and Mirage IV) and the three engines make this design also very special, besides being 6th generation. This can indicate a potential of a very large range and payload capacity.

There has long been talk of a JH-xx a stealth strike fighter that would sit between J20 and H20 as a strategic bomber. Alternatively the PLAAF might be taking the Idea of a very very long range fighter to range into the pacific. That would demand alot of fuel. One concept shown at the Chinese Air show a while back displayed a transparent model of a delta wing aircraft with three engines 2 being afterburner engines 1 being a high efficiency. In US thinking this is where veriable cycle engines would have been used. Able to transform from combat power monsters to fuel sipping engines.
Of course these need not be mutually exclusive.
The downside of that Beg Chungus of an aircraft is it’s going to be heavy and it’s going to be a flying dump truck of a fighter. With three engines the maintenance is going to be expensive as will the machine itself. Because you have theoretically 2 different engine types that’s an additional engine maintenance parts base.
So that may also explain the second demonstration aircraft. A more conventional fighter aircraft for air superiority across the land borders of China and closer to home.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Other image.

Tbh, beyond what is visible (caret intakes, split ailerons, IWB) and the apparent size, nothing else in clear. Even the engine exhaust (speculated to be 2D vectoring) is speculative at this point.

 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
If China can put in production something that lacks vertical elements, i.e. a stealth pancake, then that wouldn't be a very good development. But the few caveats:
  1. NGAD prototypes have been reportedly flying for years now.
  2. Engines are a critical enabler and China is still very much in a position of engine tech inferiority.
  3. More engines and larger body are usually a symptom of engine inferiority.
  4. Flying in broad daylight has more of a psychological effect than practical one.
  5. We don't know what defines 6th gen.
  6. China's 5th gen is still relatively in its youth.
Although I wouldn't classify it as vaporware, I think it is currently overhyped.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
  1. We don't know what defines 6th gen.
There is broad consensus on what defines 6th generation and hence we are seeing convergence among the various programs in terms of design. The key is the concept of operations, which drives the design / technology.

Platforms are expected to sustain operations deep and far, well beyond national / regional terrorities and without/limited traditional support infrastructure. (e.g tankers, AWAC assets, EW).

This affects the physical dimension (large size to cater for fuel, payload), powerful but efficient engines across the flight profiles sub/trans/super sonic (e.g adaptive cycle engines). You see this in the GCAP/FCAS/Tempest design which is a significantly larger that the legacy platforms and notional US NGAD illustrations.

Further development of system-of-systems (SoS) with powerful but distributed sensors, where each platform functions as a sensor node to wider network, effectively a swarm. This will be augmented with AI based decision making, with manned, unmanned teaming (MUM-T). This negates one weakness of 4G / 5G where the battlespace is often anchored around a strong C&C node (e.g AWACS). The development of low cost, proliferated low earth orbit (pLEO) networks like Starlink and their national counterparts also supports this.

Re the chinese machines, I agree, it is too early to say. But the design suggest 6th gen ambitions. Whether the internals like the engines/sensors etc are 6th gen, we don't know.

However, flying hardware is always good and digital engineering does not seem to provide the level of fidelity that warfighters are looking for.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
There is broad consensus on what defines 6th generation and hence we are seeing convergence among the various programs in terms of design. The key is the concept of operations, which drives the design / technology.

Platforms are expected to sustain operations deep and far, well beyond national / regional terrorities and without/limited traditional support infrastructure. (e.g tankers, AWAC assets, EW).
I witnessed no such consensus. Is that conjecture? The only definition I'd consider credible is from those who are at the forefront of aviation tech and deployment of the previous gen (5th). In this case the US basically.

Even within 3rd, 4th, and 5th gens we see flying today, there are different niches. Some smaller and capable of short range operations. Others larger with more payload and range.
The F-15 for example is on the higher end of range and payload. For that it uses 2 engines. But the twin engine F-18 is small and light. The Hornet is closer in size to the F-16 than to the F-15.
The twin engine F-22 has lower practical payload than the single engine F-35.
And the F-35 has abnormally long combat range.

What is to prevent a 5th gen with more bomber-like mission set?

What usually set generations apart isn't a different mission set but a qualitative difference.

This affects the physical dimension (large size to cater for fuel, payload), powerful but efficient engines across the flight profiles sub/trans/super sonic (e.g adaptive cycle engines). You see this in the GCAP/FCAS/Tempest design which is a significantly larger that the legacy platforms and notional US NGAD illustrations.
What makes you think the Chinese plane has ACE?

Further development of system-of-systems (SoS) with powerful but distributed sensors, where each platform functions as a sensor node to wider network, effectively a swarm. This will be augmented with AI based decision making, with manned, unmanned teaming (MUM-T). This negates one weakness of 4G / 5G where the battlespace is often anchored around a strong C&C node (e.g AWACS). The development of low cost, proliferated low earth orbit (pLEO) networks like Starlink and their national counterparts also supports this.
This capability is expected to be delivered to 5th gen as well. It's more an independent capability attached to existing manned aircraft than something requiring a brand new aircraft design.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I witnessed no such consensus. Is that conjecture? The only definition I'd consider credible is from those who are at the forefront of aviation tech and deployment of the previous gen (5th). In this case the US basically.
As the US is the only operator with sustained 5th gen deployment track record, I consider their definitions or at least their stated goals behind the NGAD program as relevant. These are found the USAF's Air Superiority 2030 Flight Plan. When it came out in 2016, it seems too futuristic to imagine. However, as the years progressed, we see more insights into the development (e.g CRS report link), many of these capabilities have been elaborated further.

I admit not to follow the FCAS, now GCAP program much but various attributes are similar. TBH, where I am not sure and it is indeed a grey area (5.5gen?) is whether something like GCAP is considered a 6th generation but some attributes, notably the size is larger than existing platforms like EF.

If we accept the 1980s designed F-22 to be an abitrary line for 5 gen, GCAP will be significantly better. 6th gen better, I don't know.

Even within 3rd, 4th, and 5th gens we see flying today, there are different niches. Some smaller and capable of short range operations. Others larger with more payload and range.
The F-15 for example is on the higher end of range and payload. For that it uses 2 engines. But the twin engine F-18 is small and light. The Hornet is closer in size to the F-16 than to the F-15.
The twin engine F-22 has lower practical payload than the single engine F-35.
And the F-35 has abnormally long combat range.

What is to prevent a 5th gen with more bomber-like mission set?


What usually set generations apart isn't a different mission set but a qualitative difference.
If we look back, 4th generation technology have been used upgrade 3rd generation (e.g Romanian MiG-21 Lancer upgrades by Elbit), while elements of 5th generation have been used to upgrade 4th generations to 4.5 gen (late model F-16s / Blk 70s) and the same will apply to 5th generation. However... there will be a finite limit (see my response to your last point)

What makes you think the Chinese plane has ACE?
I am unsure where you got the impression that I said the Chinese have ACE. I described the characteristics and attributes of 6th gen, not THEIR purported 6th generation. If it matters to you, I don't think they have ACE and they would be lucky to get something close to a F119 in the next few years (e.g WS-15+).

This capability is expected to be delivered to 5th gen as well. It's more an independent capability attached to existing manned aircraft than something requiring a brand new aircraft design.
I don't think we differ much. Much of these capabilities can be retrofitted to 5th generation platforms, whether F-35 or F-22. Re If the CONOPS of penerating counter air is to be fufilled and new ACE engine, that is the point where a clean sheet design is needed.

What most conversations have not touch on is affordability of these or even the necessity. Given the cost challenges with NGAD, could clean sheet designs be even put into service in large numbers (both manned and unmanned?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

20241229_171129.jpg

Deino in his X put picture of more clearer image of the three nozels of the engines. All so far shown similar nozels indicating those 3 are similar Turbofan engines. Whether those are WS-15 is the question.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Bill Sweetman has written a fairly balanced article that breaks down the design elements and attempts to analyse the possible missions. Interesting that he landed on counter-air, which aligns to the original intention laid out by the USAF Air Superiority 2030 Flight Plan's penetrating counter air (PCA) mission that was to drive the NGAD design.

On the design, he covered on the tri-engine configuration, which he speculated as a way to achieve optimal flight profiles, in lieu of a ACE engines. Finally, he highlighted that path which the J-20 took to reach LRIP and speculates that we might be seeing the start of a rapid flight testing regime, leading to LRIP in the later part of the decade. This is hard to tell as we don't know the level of maturity. But if they start building/flying more prototypes, chances of that happening increases.


There are also other datapoints online reportedly from Chinese sources that described one key target was power generation. I don't know what is the purpose or relevance as it is beyond my knowledge.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
20250103_071332.jpg
20250103_072209.jpg

Off course those are just unofficial rendering in Chinese Social Media. However those speculation from Chinese social media that also become first hand sources on Chinese Military development so far.

It is become increasingly skewed to fighter bombers speculation then fighter. The configuration whether Tandem and Side By Side shown reminiscing of F-15E vs SU-34 concept. Personally looking to the photo picture (which so far has not shown clearly Cockpit configuration), I'm tend to see the Tandem configuration (first rendering) as the actual configuration.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Video on the SAC fighter prototype, as clearly it is has different purpose to what's seems CAC Fighter Bomber prototype. Tailess configuration doesn't mean those two are aim for same type. Thus this is not YF-22 vs YG-23 situation. Also better not take much care on the video maker assesment, just watch the 3D rendering and video of the flight.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Bill Sweetman has written a fairly balanced article that breaks down the design elements and attempts to analyse the possible missions. Interesting that he landed on counter-air, which aligns to the original intention laid out by the USAF Air Superiority 2030 Flight Plan's penetrating counter air (PCA) mission that was to drive the NGAD design.

On the design, he covered on the tri-engine configuration, which he speculated as a way to achieve optimal flight profiles, in lieu of a ACE engines. Finally, he highlighted that path which the J-20 took to reach LRIP and speculates that we might be seeing the start of a rapid flight testing regime, leading to LRIP in the later part of the decade. This is hard to tell as we don't know the level of maturity. But if they start building/flying more prototypes, chances of that happening increases.

Bill Sweetman provided a second article, which focuses more on the possible CONOPS/purpose of this JH-XX/J-36 (the first article focuses more on the technical characteristics)

Key points: The design (LO, large payload, large fuel budget) seems to suggest a range and purpose to penetrate deep and fast into the second island chain, thereby pushing back US's ability to directly engaged in the first island chain / Taiwan. Secondary ability to function / augment as sensor nodes. There is also speculation (wild IMO) of potential energy weapon integration.

Word of caution, it is his opinion, based on limited visual information of a non-production aircraft. At lot can change between now and 2030 - 35. YMMV.


He has also written article on GCAP in December 2024, relevant for reading as Pacific requirements is also driving the design towards something with long range and payloads.


Janes estimations of the size.

 
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76mmGuns

Active Member
Only the F-22 and F35's are true 5th generation planes. Everything else is not.

5th Generation is not the angled slopes in the design. It is:
- outline of plane
- stealth coating
- seamless build- no rivits (see pics of Russian and Chinese planes with rivits)
- networking
- high end electronic warfare including radar

Only the US designed planes have all these.

So Chinese "6th" generation planes are just different outlines. They probably decrease radar detection distance, but they don't have anything else, afaik.

Everything else is Gen 4.5
 
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