Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
There’s no justification for the direction Hunter has taken in the context of the overall fleet plan.

The whole “specialist” combatant argument re Hunter to justify this simply doesn’t make sense.

Hunter by public spec is more capable than Hobart in all domains. Since when did we have the luxury of wasting that on being able to carry shipping containers rather than missiles?
I have been wondering about this myself. If the RAN gets Mogami as the GPF, it will have an MCM capability. Does the Hunter then still need the space hungry mission bay? If it were removed, space and weight would be saved. Then could Hunter carry 32 more VLS (64 total)? This would be a better match with the CEFAR radar and AEGIS. Having spent all that money on a silenced hull, I would still favor retaining the Type 2087 sonar. A second SH60 might also be more useful than the mission bay.

I note some argue that accompanying autonomous vessels will solve the problem. That assumes they are funded, built, work reliably and are deployed together. I think those are heroic assumptions given recent political history.
 
Last edited:

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I have been wondering about this myself. If the RAN gets Mogami as the GPF, it will have an MCM capability. Does the Hunter then still need the space hungry mission bay? If it were removed, space and weight would be saved. Then could Hunter carry 32 more VLS (64 total)? This would be a better match with the CEFAR radar and AEGIS. Having spent all that money on a silenced hull, I would still favor retaining the Type 2087 sonar. A second SH60 might also be more useful than the mission bay.
It might depend on just how flexible the mission bay is, and/or what options are available to put into the mission space. For instance, can the mission bay be able to support a second naval helicopter, or perhaps a UAS/UAV which can drop a sonobuoy array? Or as an alternate is there a mission bay which can support/operate/launch a UUV or perhaps even a couple of them to add the parent vessel in clearing/sanitizing an area of hostile subs? Yes, from an air defence and/or land attack perspective, more VLS cells would be nice to have and possibly even quite important depending on the circumstances and scenario. However one does need to remember that these mission bays have the potential to provide the Hunter-class frigates with additional capabilities or even perhaps expand and augment existing core capabilities. In the specific potential examples I raised about, it might very well be possible for the ASW focus and capabilities of a Hunter-class to go beyond what they already are.

As a side note, from what I recall about surface vessels conducting modern ASW ops, things are now done with multiple assets working together as a group or team to 'hunt' for hostile subs, with multiple sensing platforms involved to collectively either drive off a hostile sub contact, or develop a shooting solution. Having a mission bay which might be able to expand the number of sensing platforms involved in such a hunt could become very valuable, particularly if there are just a limited number of platforms the RAN can have operational in a given area.
 
I agree with Todjaeger about the mission bay for two reasons.

So much chatter has been about VLS count, as if surface warfare is all about overwhelming your opponents layered air defense. Is ship to ship combat now just a war of attrition between Surface to Air and Surface to Surface missiles? Have we been lead to believe it's all just a Sim like game lobbying crap at each other and the only way to win is to have more interceptors?

I'm not saying it's irrelevant but the objective is to hit someone where/ when they don't expect it. The Mockba on paper looked impressive with a significant SS/SA capability, yet two Neptune's slammed into it and yet none of those 128 or so missiles on board were actually launched in its defense.

A modern vessel will not operate exclusively, and the hit can come from the air, the surface or subsurface. Whilst I do wish we had more cells (as insurance), to lose the mission bay (for now) would be a kneejerk reaction to a problem we can potentially solve elsewhere.

Let's not forget those vessels will be tasked to a range of missions, not just peer to peer conflict. That mission bay can broaden the scope of missions available to that vessel, and again the war shot if needed may not always come from the VLS magazine.

That said, a 96 cells AAW Hunter makes sense in due course to replace the Hobart AWD's. The mission bay is less needed if we already have 6 Hunters in the fleet with an available mission bay.

All in due course though.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The mission bay is designed as an area in which a second helicopter could be stored, as well as more RIBs, USVs, or containerised systems. It would not, however seem to be high enough for the installation of Mark 41 cells; and there are of course a number of things on the decks immediately below it which would prevent a Mk41 penetrating the deck. Installing more cells there would therefore almost certainly require a serious redesign of the ship’s internals; not of course impossible but also not a short term activity.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
It might depend on just how flexible the mission bay is, and/or what options are available to put into the mission space. For instance, can the mission bay be able to support a second naval helicopter, or perhaps a UAS/UAV which can drop a sonobuoy array? Or as an alternate is there a mission bay which can support/operate/launch a UUV or perhaps even a couple of them to add the parent vessel in clearing/sanitizing an area of hostile subs? Yes, from an air defence and/or land attack perspective, more VLS cells would be nice to have and possibly even quite important depending on the circumstances and scenario. However one does need to remember that these mission bays have the potential to provide the Hunter-class frigates with additional capabilities or even perhaps expand and augment existing core capabilities. In the specific potential examples I raised about, it might very well be possible for the ASW focus and capabilities of a Hunter-class to go beyond what they already are.

As a side note, from what I recall about surface vessels conducting modern ASW ops, things are now done with multiple assets working together as a group or team to 'hunt' for hostile subs, with multiple sensing platforms involved to collectively either drive off a hostile sub contact, or develop a shooting solution. Having a mission bay which might be able to expand the number of sensing platforms involved in such a hunt could become very valuable, particularly if there are just a limited number of platforms the RAN can have operational in a given area.
To add to Todd's comment above.

I would caution against the view that a tier 1 platform (or a tier 2 for that matter) must have every surface covered in missiles. I would also not hold the view that the dominant maritime threat is air based. Or the view that a Hunter is going to take on a Chinese carrier fleet single handedly.

I would suggest that the more complex and difficult threat is undersea, and if we are to maintain merchant and military sea lanes, we need equipment that can secure them from undersea threats. Before we can do anything else. WW11 merchant losses were caused predominantly by submarine attacks, rather than surface or air threats. I don't think this has changed that much.

Hunters form a critical part of this protection, in conjunction with our own submarines and P8 aircraft. I will note there are functions, in particular persistance, that a ship can do more effectively than either of the other two systems. Our own submarines will be great, but there will be a limited number and they will be likely on other taskings of more importance. GPFs could also do some of this work, but not as effectively, and again they will be needed elsewhere.

I would suggest that the Brits make the best anti sub platform in the world by a significant margin, and the T26 is the best they have built. It might have had a troublesome birth, that is what it will be. It's variable depth sonar capability is a significant threat to any submarine.

We stuck an enormus radar on top of it to provide some more all rounded capability, and it has sufficient missile storage for robust point defence, but none of this was at the expense of the base ASW core.

If the threat is multi dimensional, then it would be expected we would have multiple assets to control. Air defence would likely be led by another asset. It would be asking for trouble to do all this in one platform.

For instance if operating in a hostile location, the Hunter would most likely be incorporated into a surface task group. It would be one of several ships, with its function ASW. It could operate at a distance to the STG, perhaps several hundred miles, to form a cordon, and it would have sufficient self defence if something air launched popped up unexpectedly. Air defence would be led by another asset, such as a Burke, or a Hobart. The Hunter might share its radar picture, particularly if it is already out on the perimeter, and combine its missile activation for sector defence.

In this kind of scenario, its best contribution remains ASW. The more it has and can use for this function, the better it can protect the other ships. Additional missiles don't add an enhanced capability in this context, especially if it comes at the expense of ASW. It's job is to keep hostile submarines and UUVs away, allowing other ships do their job.

The Hobarts will be up for replacement in the coming years, and these can be built for air defence, with large missile silos. There is an argument that we would need more than three, which I would agree with. But I wouldn't sacrifice or swap the existing ASW Hunters for this capability.
 
Last edited:

Armchair

Well-Known Member

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The mission bay is designed as an area in which a second helicopter could be stored, as well as more RIBs, USVs, or containerised systems. It would not, however seem to be high enough for the installation of Mark 41 cells; and there are of course a number of things on the decks immediately below it which would prevent a Mk41 penetrating the deck. Installing more cells there would therefore almost certainly require a serious redesign of the ship’s internals; not of course impossible but also not a short term activity.
The mission bay is a very flexible space.
Let’s keep it as and embrace the range of options it gives to the fleet.

The RAN is a mid sized navy
Specialist ships have a place ,
but so does flexibility for our fleet size.

Let’s get the Hunters in the water ASAP.

Cheers S
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The mission bay is designed as an area in which a second helicopter could be stored, as well as more RIBs, USVs, or containerised systems. It would not, however seem to be high enough for the installation of Mark 41 cells; and there are of course a number of things on the decks immediately below it which would prevent a Mk41 penetrating the deck. Installing more cells there would therefore almost certainly require a serious redesign of the ship’s internals; not of course impossible but also not a short term activity.
Xavier talked to the Rep from BAE about increasing the Number of VLS at Indo Pacific 2023. IIRC, though not mentioned in this video, BAE at that time said they could build a FFG version of the Hunter from ship 4 onwards but it was too late for Batch 1.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
But does that also specifically confirm it is the upgraded Mogami that is in the running? The statement says

“The Reiwa 6 (year 2024) type escort ship (4,800 ton type), which is the capacity improvement type of the escort ship, was selected.”
Yes I believe so. The references 4800t and the later reference to the 06FFM (as opposed to the 30FFM, which are the legacy Mogamis) appears to strongly indicate that it’s the evolved Mogami.
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
The mission bay is a very flexible space.
Let’s keep it as and embrace the range of options it gives to the fleet.

The RAN is a mid sized navy
Specialist ships have a place ,
but so does flexibility for our fleet size.

Let’s get the Hunters in the water ASAP.

Cheers S
Like doubling the drumbeat
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Deleted source

 
Last edited:

Bevan

New Member
Yes I believe so. The references 4800t and the later reference to the 06FFM (as opposed to the 30FFM, which are the legacy Mogamis) appears to strongly indicate that it’s the evolved Mogami.
The 4800t reference and this statement "which is the capacity improvement type of the escort ship" does suggest Evolved Mogami, but 06FFM without context could refer to JS Agano which was commissioned earlier in the year.

The exact statement from the APDR article referencing 06FFM is:

“06FFM is engaged in continuous and multi-layered information collection and surveillance activities in the surrounding sea areas from time to time and conducts international peace cooperation activities overseas”

If it referenced an Evolved Mogami, the statement wouldnt be phrased in a current context (i.e.: is engaged). There is no Evolved Mogami in the water, so it would not currently be engaged in anything right now. Unless Im reading that wrong, or its a lost in translation thing.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
The 4800t reference and this statement "which is the capacity improvement type of the escort ship" does suggest Evolved Mogami, but 06FFM without context could refer to JS Agano which was commissioned earlier in the year.

The exact statement from the APDR article referencing 06FFM is:

“06FFM is engaged in continuous and multi-layered information collection and surveillance activities in the surrounding sea areas from time to time and conducts international peace cooperation activities overseas”

If it referenced an Evolved Mogami, the statement wouldnt be phrased in a current context (i.e.: is engaged). There is no Evolved Mogami in the water, so it would not currently be engaged in anything right now. Unless Im reading that wrong, or its a lost in translation thing.
Official statement of the Japanese MOD https://www.mod.go.jp/j/press/news/2024/11/28d.html

‘Regarding Australia's next-generation general-purpose frigate program, in February 2024, the Australian government announced that it would select the next-generation general-purpose frigate from several candidate vessels, including the Mogami-class frigate, and published a procurement plan that included construction in Australia. Since this announcement, Japan has provided the necessary information at the request of the Australian government, and in November 2024, the Australian government evaluated the information provided and narrowed down the candidates to two countries, selecting the Reiwa 06(FY2024) type frigate(4,800 ton type), an improved version of the Mogami-class frigate, as one of them.’

[Reference] Overview of the Reiwa 06 type frigate (06FFM)

‘The 06FFM will be engaged in continuous and multi-layered information gathering and surveillance activities in the surrounding sea areas on a regular basis, as well as international peace cooperation activities overseas. In times of emergency, it can also be used for various activities such as anti-submarine warfare, anti-aircraft warfare, and anti-surface warfare. It is a multipurpose frigate that has been equipped with long-range missiles and enhanced anti-submarine warfare functions, in addition to the anti-mine warfare functions previously only performed by minesweeping vessels, from the Mogami-class frigate.’

APDR with the poor translation.

>
30FFM is the current Mogami. JS Agano’s pennant number is FFM6.
06FFM (Reiwa) program refers to the Upgraded Mogami or New FFM, the design was completed this year. 4,800 tons is its standard displacement.
 
Last edited:

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I

It looks quite an effective platform. A decent sized flight deck, plenty of space forward of the bridge for containerized loads (with the crane), and Roll On/Roll Off below the main deck. My concern is what will be the self defense fit out? A 25mm or 30mm Typhoon mount up forward makes sense with an excellent arc of fire, but I'm wondering what else apart from 50 calibre mounts could be fitted. It needs a decent CIWS. Phalanx and SeaRam would be problematic, but perhaps there is something smaller and self contained that could be located on the deck. Any thoughts?
It will be a 12.7mm machine gun, “maybe” mounted an an RWS.

The ADF is literally allergic to firepower.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
The illustration in the article, that Severely linked, shows that the Bridge and mast structure in the New FFM are mounted quite a bit higher than in the original Mogami.

IMG_6732.jpeg
 
Top