But our pollies don't want anything to happen that will cost money, they are in a world of. it won't happen to us ' therefore we don't need to do anything. When put under pressure they start a "white paper" or "DCP" which takes enough time that they hope the fuss will have died down and then ignore it, re the last DCP. I don't see anything much happening under the new review coming up, except all the right noises and little action.
New Zealand Army
- Thread starter Whiskyjack
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recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Supacat are actively promoting solutions for the NZDF's utility medium and utility light vehicle programme.
Some interesting modular/reconfigurable options - any thoughts chaps (Reg too, especially from your lived and learned experiences! Any feedback from the Army's current operators of the vehicle)?
Some interesting modular/reconfigurable options - any thoughts chaps (Reg too, especially from your lived and learned experiences! Any feedback from the Army's current operators of the vehicle)?
Interesting concept but personally I'm not sure it's a right fit for this particular project. Sure its a proven system and by all accounts a great vehicle, it's been described to me as a big beast, but still not exactly an "in service in numbers" make per se rather in service in niche roles ie SF, spec roles etc with 1000 worldwide? Pretty sure the RFI alone called specifically for a larger base example of @3000 at least but I could be wrong. Difference for us being as "common" and "in use" as a ford or as common as a ferrari in relative terms.
I used to think maybe we would follow suit of Australia and go 4x4 and 6x6 G wagons but perhaps the budget cut monster, timing or even Australian experience itself has quashed that? (Any Aussies care to comment?) but now after reading the latest request (which seems to be ever changing especially in terms of overall numbers at least) and some overseas projects I'm actually following the IVECO brand with interest which has just as much of a footprint in NZDF as supacat if not more as well as an established NZ wide presence and support network.
kiwi in exile
Active Member
There would be benefits to the supacat HMT platform as outlined in the video which seems to be unavailable currently 
deployability on a c130 or in a shipping container.
Has had MBDA brimstones and ASRAAMs intergrated in Ukraine
I have read that the RFI mentions sustainable options- there is hybrid battery options in development
In the press releases for the MAN recovery trucks we got a few years back it is mentioned that NZDF were planning (at that stage) to acguire a smaller, more high mobility recovery vehicle. There is a supacat HMT light recovery vehicle (deal breaker would be can it recover a bushmaster)
Recovery version is modelled with an armoured cab.
There was a HIMARS type version tested years ago by the UK- cancelled because??
The light vehicle requirement in the RFI asks for on road/off road flatbed single cab/dual cab and versions to transport 10 troops. Bushmaster makes these- why not just add more bushmasters. Im guessing cost.
The medium vehicle requirement sounds close to the MHOV HX60- why not just more of them?
deployability on a c130 or in a shipping container.
Has had MBDA brimstones and ASRAAMs intergrated in Ukraine
I have read that the RFI mentions sustainable options- there is hybrid battery options in development
In the press releases for the MAN recovery trucks we got a few years back it is mentioned that NZDF were planning (at that stage) to acguire a smaller, more high mobility recovery vehicle. There is a supacat HMT light recovery vehicle (deal breaker would be can it recover a bushmaster)
Recovery version is modelled with an armoured cab.
There was a HIMARS type version tested years ago by the UK- cancelled because??
The light vehicle requirement in the RFI asks for on road/off road flatbed single cab/dual cab and versions to transport 10 troops. Bushmaster makes these- why not just add more bushmasters. Im guessing cost.
The medium vehicle requirement sounds close to the MHOV HX60- why not just more of them?
Pinzgauer & Unimog replacement vehicles announced
The NZDF has chosen the Spanish UROVESA VAMTAC ST5 & CK3 (perhaps the latter should be SK?, manufacturers website doesn't list a CK3 variant) as the replacement for the Unimog light trucks and the unarmoured Pinzgauers. Link to NZDF media release here. The first tranche of 60 vehicles (40 CK3 & 20 ST5) is to replace a quarter of the light operational vehicle fleet.
Links to manufacturers website:
Urovesa VAMTAC ST5 - similar to a HMMWV (6t to 11t gross vehicle weight - depending on wheelbase & armour package I guess). Steyr engine. 1.7t payload. We appear to be getting the short wheelbase variant.
Urovesa VAMTAC SK - 11t gross vehicle weight. I assume the same chassis & engine as the ST5 (long wheelbase), but in light truck configuration. Close to 4t payload.
Guess the budget wouldn't stretch to G-Wagens or HMMWVs. So much for interoperability then. VAMTAC vehicles are however used by Singapore (not sure how many though), Malaysia & Indonesia in our region, but the vast majority of the worldwide fleet are in Spain. Hopefully these won't be a logistical nightmare. Numbers seem low; didn't we order over 300 Pinzgauers (never mind Unimogs) twenty years ago?
The NZDF has chosen the Spanish UROVESA VAMTAC ST5 & CK3 (perhaps the latter should be SK?, manufacturers website doesn't list a CK3 variant) as the replacement for the Unimog light trucks and the unarmoured Pinzgauers. Link to NZDF media release here. The first tranche of 60 vehicles (40 CK3 & 20 ST5) is to replace a quarter of the light operational vehicle fleet.
Links to manufacturers website:
Urovesa VAMTAC ST5 - similar to a HMMWV (6t to 11t gross vehicle weight - depending on wheelbase & armour package I guess). Steyr engine. 1.7t payload. We appear to be getting the short wheelbase variant.
Urovesa VAMTAC SK - 11t gross vehicle weight. I assume the same chassis & engine as the ST5 (long wheelbase), but in light truck configuration. Close to 4t payload.
Guess the budget wouldn't stretch to G-Wagens or HMMWVs. So much for interoperability then. VAMTAC vehicles are however used by Singapore (not sure how many though), Malaysia & Indonesia in our region, but the vast majority of the worldwide fleet are in Spain. Hopefully these won't be a logistical nightmare. Numbers seem low; didn't we order over 300 Pinzgauers (never mind Unimogs) twenty years ago?
Interesting and left feild acquisition indeed, and this is exactly why I don't believe the whole interoperability jargon as they apply to the most random capabilities ie there is alot more chance of us sharing/operating/maintaining something like this vs say a hercules or a frigate. Hopefully not another orphan pinzgauer 2.0 debacle but time will tell, just like pinz...
Like to see the armoured versions and how they stack up?
The fleets (of everything) have been slowly shrinking over the years, but then I guess so has the military in general, just hope we are not waiting another 10 years to replace the remaining pinzgauer like we have done with the old/current unimogs that apparently were already in a state a decade ago.
In saying that new replacements are new replacements and by all accounts badly needed as the old fleet is literally becoming too difficult to maintain and keep operational as is, here's hoping for the best!
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
More/other types to come in due course? Note the wording used in the media release - "the first tranche/tranche one/the delivery of the first 60 utility vehicles..." etc.
According to recent reporting by Gordon Arthur the tender states 230 Utility Vehicles - Medium (UV-M) and Utility Vehicles - Light (UV-L) to replace 321 Pinzgauer 6×6 vehicles. (Which has also been touched upon here previously by various commentators).
According to recent reporting by Gordon Arthur the tender states 230 Utility Vehicles - Medium (UV-M) and Utility Vehicles - Light (UV-L) to replace 321 Pinzgauer 6×6 vehicles. (Which has also been touched upon here previously by various commentators).
So much for “Plan ANZAC”…
We will start to receive them in 2027 just as the other users will be getting rid of there ones!! and will end up being a crap purchase yet again!! the spare parts have to come from Spain so if there are issues with sea lanes being closed etc....no spares!!! really bright thinking here!! Should have bought from Ozzie!
Plan "ANZAC" is only lip service to Aust not worth the words stated by our PM and defence minister this government is just simpily not going to stump up with the required funding!!
I don't think that it was ever intended that we should have everything the same as Australia. What is needed is the ability to operate together and use the same day today consumer items and products, Fuel oils filters tyres ammo etc and have common communication and standards of operating so that when operating together it can be done seamlessly. This can be achieved, with out everything being identical as is the case in NATO.
Bought what from Aussie??
Bought what from Ozzie? They operate MAN trucks and Mercedes G wagons, both of which are European origin as well so would have any/all of those same issues as us.
Yes but that 230 is to replace the remaining pinzgauer AND unimogs so if we are replacing the original numbers 1 for 1 that's the 326 pinz (minus the 60 armoured which have supposedly already been replaced by the 43 bushmasters) and @200-250 unimogs so conservatively that's still @500 vehicles.
The math doesnt quite add up and would look as though a few units are going to have to lose a good chunk of its organic transport either way? I know they have the shared pool fleet now but that only works when times are quiet and not every unit is requesting vehicles concurrently which to me seems abit short sighted and "thin on the ground" to say the least.
There are Service centres for both MAN and Mercedes in NZ already for a start and nothing for the Spanish vechicles!
So army will do their own servicing on these fleets like they do anyway. There isnt any pinzgauer, LAVIII or bushmaster service centres in NZ either but they all still get serviced and repaired regardless. Australia do not sell MAN or Mercedes vehicles, they bought them from Europe just like we did and will do.
Actually a large part of our MAN HX series vehicles were built locally at Rheinmetall’s facility in Brisbane…
Rheinmetall
Rheinmetall Defence Australia represents Rheinmetall’s range of products and services in Australia and New Zealand.
www.rheinmetall.com
No they weren't, we got ours direct from the British line which is how we got them relatively quickly. The Australian HXs are actually a different model, HX2.Actually a large part of our MAN HX series vehicles were built locally at Rheinmetall’s facility in Brisbane…
Rheinmetall
Rheinmetall Defence Australia represents Rheinmetall’s range of products and services in Australia and New Zealand.
Edit: sorry I assumed you were kiwi and referring to NZs MAN fleet. The point I was making is that these fleets are bought from European OEMs, as in the financial dealing is between say the commonwealth of Australia and Germany not sold by Australia as there own.
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Rheinmetall MAN Military Vehicles Australia Pty Ltd | Rheinmetall is an example of supporting a vehicle fleet in location that is closer to NZ than Europe
OldTex
Well-Known Member
The question is whether MMVA can fully support the fleet from domestic sources or does it still need some items from Europe. A question of domestic substitution becomes more important when international trade is restricted.
Are you saying bought from Ozzie, as in paid for or brought from Ozzie as in taken from as those are 2 different contexts. Whilst they still could be built in Australia from either full or knockdown kits you would still buy the actual vehicle from the European owner and they COULD have them built in Aus but like the Man's and NH90s for example it is not always possible, practical or timely as the build is literally to support the main Ausrtralian project.
Also as it shows even having a regional service hub AND build industry in country doesn't automatically guarantee a successful outcome, case and point, we both have Nh90s and whilst all Army Taipans were built in Aus and all kiwi rhinos built in France it has been nothing but a divergent shitshow by all accounts. Not sure what level of support from Aus NZ got but would seem support from Aus for Aus fleet a total flop so not the silver bullet it is made out to be with spare parts and technical support supposedly some ongoing major gripes.
I think as long as nz army get a comprehensive spares, operation and manuals package in Trentham to back the initial fleet, work out the ins outs and what will be required long term them with alittle help, training, heads up from cadre Vamtac tech and mechs then there kiwi brethren should catch on pretty quickly. Might even be a sneaky trip over to Spain, Singapore or another friendly operator for cheeky soldiers five. All I'm saying is that they are not just going to run into this blind and the this would not be the first bespoke unique fleet that has been introduced into service in the near new while so not exactly transition training teams first rodeo.
What I'm saying is we should buy the same support vehicles as the Australians not a completely different make/model that has to have a seperate logistics tail when there is an Aust/Pacific hub setup already operating now! setting up a new small support system will again cost more in the long run New Zealand does this all the time.
Also the NH90's are now an orphan fleet in this part of the world and expensive to opperate! so will end up being an expensive option now the Australians have gone back to Blackhawks and Airbus are useless for supplying spares.
Also everytime we have operated a one off fleet of equipement it turns out expensive! just look at the Seasprites expensive to operate/repair should have purchased Seahawks.
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