International Army News Thread

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Is it though ? Looking on the way those mainstream media pundits put their so call 'assesment', is more anything come from Russia is stupid and desperate. Anything to spite Russia.
I have no idea what pundits you are referring to, so I can't really comment on this further.

Despite Western media and politicians put Ukraine vs Russia as David vs Goliath, it is clearly misleading. Ukraine have larger Army then most of Nato in Europe (asside Turkiye). Russia do get desperate on finding something fast to provide solutions. That's what they shown so far, scrambling on solutions and work out and developing whichever idea or model that work.
As long as these things aren't properly institutionalized, I don't think we can credit them with "trying".
To try, is to at least listen to the troops and attempt to organize some solution. Seeing how every cope cage, every turtle kit, even installation of semi standard kit like the drone jammers - are unique... I can hardly call that a serious attempt at anything.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
It should be noted that there is a long history and many armies including highly industrialized well funded have come up with some unorthodox unapologetically unapproved modifications to combat vehicles.
The thing is rarely are said modifications actually practical. Extra track links on the front of a Sherman don’t actually increase protection. Water cans on the side of APCs don’t do much again modern Shaped charge warheads if the vehicle already has a cage.
Hillbilly armor from early in the Iraq war was a mix of Sand bags on the floor and scrap metal welded on the sides of vehicles. Eventually the U.S. government bought MRAPS but that didn’t stop some from continuing the practice despite the Army having proven that some of the modifications did not actually do anything. A double V hull is far superior to sandbags. Actual ballistic plate is better than random sheet metal.

Because although necessity is the mother of invention sometimes what soldiers come up with is just plain stupid.
Often said modifications are done based on assumptions of a threat or how the solution “should” work not how it does work. It adds extra weight to vehicles putting extra stress and reducing service life.

In the case of what the Russians are doing well some of it can be justified and made practical. Institutionalized into an actual viable system assuming that the Russian MIC wants to make the investment.
A example that can work is Cope cages which though still kinda “meh” can provide some limited defense against top attack by bomblets and if built properly top attack RPG even some albeit only some ATGMs. Assuming it’s properly built, designed and mounted. However it does come with trades in terms of roof mounted weapon elevation, situational awareness and ease of evacuation of the tank by the Commander, Gunner (Loader where applicable).
However Cope cages are an exception one that is built of a solid theory and derivative of a proven concept. Slat armor/Spaced armor

We have seen other pointless to more of a risk to the users concepts as well. Case in point the Turtle tank/Assault Shed/ Mobile Barns/BylatMobile.
Often built on older MBTs. These vehicles are first (at least based on the captured example) being used as half assed APCs?! The example captured is a T62 with the gunners hatch welded shut. The gun is disabled the turret is fixed in place No additional sensors or cameras so only the driver has a view of the outside which is awful and only from at best the raised “Parade driving” position.
The structure is sheet metal and cage which might stop an FPV drone or a grenade but anything beyond remotely AP will go through the “shed”. Including small arms, RPGs, ATGMs automatic cannons and tank/artillery fire. The infantry seems to use the engine deck. Which I am sure is nice for the infantry in February not so much in June. There only real defense is Just drone jammers. Even the tanks’s ERA is gone. It’s about as stealthy as a freight train due to all that metal added on top of the turbocharged diesel engine. They have been seen with Mine rollers and dozer blades but with all of this what do you have? Maybe the coax works but it looks like the commander’s MG is gone and with a point of view about as good as a glory hole. So even if it worked it would be blind firing. So you have a vehicle that is doing the job of an APC but worse. The better option it seems would have been to add the drone jammer to a BMP, APC or MRAP APC. If you need the extra coverage then a proper cope cage. Turtle tanks really have no redeeming qualities

Next up the Copecycle!
If the Bylatmobile is WW1 then the Cope Cycle is Eastern front WW2.
A motorcycle with a side car but they added a cage around it to counter FPV drones.
The problem should be obvious. They have been using these as makeshift Jeeps getting infantry to the trenches. Similar to how some western armies have been using Quad ATVs like MRZR.
However these are obviously not armored vehicles. So in the video we see the results. An FPV drone hits one of these vehicles and although it appears the driver survived as these have been used for carrying up to three people not great survival odds. So well someone could produce caged bikes or ATVs… wait…
It just occurred to me, that commercial industry does make such vehicles. They are used on Golf courses to protect grounds keepers from gulf balls on driving ranges. Yet a beyond those niches it’s not a practical vehicle set. It’s only going to protect maybe 1 out of 3 on the bike from a very specific FPV drones type or for the day when the primary objective is a frontal assault on a Gulf course with a batting cage and Tennis Court ball machine turned into crude crew served weapons.
Again we have something that has no value, because it’s a mission that could easily be accomplished by an existing APC or MRAP APC.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Often built on older MBTs. These vehicles are first (at least based on the captured example) being used as half assed APCs?! The example captured is a T62 with the gunners hatch welded shut. The gun is disabled the turret is fixed in place No additional sensors or cameras so only the driver has a view of the outside which is awful and only from at best the raised “Parade driving” position.
The structure is sheet metal and cage which might stop an FPV drone or a grenade but anything beyond remotely AP will go through the “shed”. Including small arms, RPGs, ATGMs automatic cannons and tank/artillery fire. The infantry seems to use the engine deck.
I heard a case that it should be treated not as a dumbed down tank, but as a pimped breacher. Remove all ammo to prevent detonation if hit. Preferably dysfunctional hydraulics to reduce fire hazard. Partial crew only. The turtle structure would ideally counter the most prevalent threat which is FPV drones, and with the removed hazards it could drive quite some distance until something managed to directly hit either the crew or the automotives. At the point where it's already disabled, it was given disproportionate attention and other assets are now closer to direct contact, in larger numbers.

So far this case sounds good to me on paper. But I haven't watched war footage in quite a while to actually judge if it holds.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
I heard a case that it should be treated not as a dumbed down tank, but as a pimped breacher. Remove all ammo to prevent detonation if hit. Preferably dysfunctional hydraulics to reduce fire hazard. Partial crew only. The turtle structure would ideally counter the most prevalent threat which is FPV drones, and with the removed hazards it could drive quite some distance until something managed to directly hit either the crew or the automotives. At the point where it's already disabled, it was given disproportionate attention and other assets are now closer to direct contact, in larger numbers.

So far this case sounds good to me on paper. But I haven't watched war footage in quite a while to actually judge if it holds.
I wouldn’t even call it a “pimped” Breacher. It’s a crude solution if that’s the answer. There are far better breaching vehicles so “pimped” isn’t a term I would use. “Post apocalyptic” or “MadMax” maybe. “Crude” absolutely. “Makeshift” at best.

Its communications are limited and the small crew is still a crew with limited to no evacuation options. The limited situational awareness comes into play again. Like a horse with blinders the crew can’t easily maneuver and if it finds an obstacle it slows down. Well it has reduced fire risk sure yet the shed has the potential to become a trap in the event of damage. Vs FPV drones a tank’s armor alone would be enough in cases where MBT have been destroyed by drones it’s often the case that said tank was already disabled by mine or artillery and the drone then gives the coup de grace dropping a explosive device into the fighting compartment's cooking off the ammunition in the turret.
A cope cage or operating buttoned up would prevent that. Unless it’s one of the more expensive Drones like Switchblade with a Javlin Warhead. Even then the shed isn’t going to do much.
Farther the Captured example was disabled by drones so with goo tactics those drones can still knock out these assault sheds. These seem to be operating on their own which is a death sentence.
If you’re arguing that the Russians need to develop a breaching vehicle? Fine. Yet this doesn’t seem like any part of the solution to that gap.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Thai Army test prototype of 105mm gun that Thai DTI build base on Chinese 105mm gun. This is part of Thai effort to increase their MIC production. Before that, they already inducted MLRS build base on Chinese designs. Increase co-op with Chinese base design seems what so far they're doing.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) released a video showing locally made Nimr Ajban Mk2 4×4 armoured vehicles in service with its forces for the first time on 18 October.

The AJBAN MK2 is a 4×4 ballistic and blast protected light tactical patrol vehicle for a crew of five. This multi-role capacity vehicle is constructed with a V-hull unit structure for effective mine-blast protection and a ballistic-protected rear cargo compartment.
Ajban Mk2 enters UAE service




Dutch State Secretary for Defence Gijs Tuinman has given some details about the procurement of 46 Leopard 2A8 main battle tanks in co-operation with Germany in a letter to parliament on 14 October. The tanks are scheduled to enter service in 2027–30.
Netherlands details Leopard 2A8 MBT procurement



In this article we see a photo of a GAZ Tigr (background left) when the wife of Equatorial Guinea's president arrived for the military parade in Djibloho on 12 October. The Tigr is probably not part of the Equatorial Guinea armed forces, but from a local Russian contingent. Maybe i am wrong, but the shirt of the boy looks suspiciously much like Indonesian batik.
Russian Tigr seen at Equatorial Guinea's parade
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Dutch State Secretary for Defence Gijs Tuinman has given some details about the procurement of 46 Leopard 2A8 main battle tanks in co-operation with Germany in a letter to parliament on 14 October. The tanks are scheduled to enter service in 2027–30.
After they discarding their Leo 2 A5, wondering if some political factions in Netherlands will going to call this as wasted move. Will later on the political changes will keep those new A8 in inventory ?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
After they discarding their Leo 2 A5, wondering if some political factions in Netherlands will going to call this as wasted move. Will later on the political changes will keep those new A8 in inventory ?
There will be always some left hippies demanding to disband as much as possible squadrons, batalyons, fleets and bases, while telling that we don't need the military because "everything can to be solved with just talking", "violence is wrong", "defence is only for prestige" and "evil doesn't exist".
 

SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
Croatia signed letter of intent for 50 Leopard 2A8.
Lithuania finalized order for 54.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Croatia signed letter of intent for 50 Leopard 2A8.
Lithuania finalized order for 54.
Remarkable that the Leopard 2 is much more successful on the exportmarket than other European tanks like the Ariete, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Is the Leopard 2 so much better? Not only second hands are exported.
 

SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
Remarkable that the Leopard 2 is much more successful on the exportmarket than other European tanks like the Ariete, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Is the Leopard 2 so much better? Not only second hands are exported.
The Leopard 2 Is the only MBT currently produced in Europe.
The Ariete, Leclerc,... Are all MBTs that went out of production many years ago.
All the new versions of those tanks are just upgraded legacy hulls.

In the next year's we'll have another european tank, the KF-51, which is largely based on the Leopard 2.

The special versions of both tanks are the same (bergepanzer, pionierpanzer, buffel, Keiler,.... Are all Leo/buffel 3 hull).
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Remarkable that the Leopard 2 is much more successful on the exportmarket than other European tanks like the Ariete, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Is the Leopard 2 so much better? Not only second hands are exported.
It is a combination of timing, support and base.
Leopard 2 exports started with the Netherlands on the Cold War when everyone was buying in substantial numbers. Then the Swiss in much smaller numbers.
Then second hand sales blitz after the Germany reunification and as the Iron Curtain fell off the rusted through Soviet rod.
The West Germans had about 2100 Leo2s today Modern Germany have about 310. They sold off Leopard early on at a steep discount. That created a huge market base as those tanks needed to be sustained in an era when few new MBT were being built. Then the Danish joined in the sales.
Leclerc production launched that same time but if you were going to buy Leclerc you were buying at full price. Same for C1 Ariete or Challanger 2 they also entered production in that post Cold War era. With small base fleets there was little chance of second hand sales. Leclerc did get one export sale the UAE but total build was maybe >900. Challanger 2 had 447 built but any chance of export was low first as the British sold off their surplus Challanger 1 in its place second its “unique” characteristics. Ariete base fleet of 200 units. It was just not going to happen.

As former Soviet states joined in and less prosperous but large NATO states have the 90s and early 00s decided their older MBT were time to be put to pasture they trailed and often bought Leopard 2 with licenses for production or major modernization and larger fleet buys than the secondary market could sustain. So production continued new plants opened more modernization.
The Leopard 2 Is the only MBT currently produced in Europe.
The Ariete, Leclerc,... Are all MBTs that went out of production many years ago.
All the new versions of those tanks are just upgraded legacy hulls.

In the next year's we'll have another european tank, the KF-51, which is largely based on the Leopard 2.

The special versions of both tanks are the same (bergepanzer, pionierpanzer, buffel, Keiler,.... Are all Leo/buffel 3 hull).
The KF51 is currently more than just one tank. It’s kinda a family that can range from a leopard 2 overhaul like the KF51 U CUT to the eventual full MBT. Like the Lynx has the KF41 and KF31. With options of conventional 120 L55 or the eventual 130mm L52.
The future of tanks and armor seems to be highly tailored.
Though some may fight me on this I would also point out that the Polish K2PL will also open production in the next few years and that means a second new MBT.
 
Last edited:

swerve

Super Moderator
The Swiss bought more than anyone except Germany & the Netherlands, IIRC. 380? Something like that.
 
Top