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Armchair

Active Member
The US Army has already twice canceled potential replacement efforts for the armed scout. In 2004, it terminated the Comanche program after spending $9 billion to produce two prototypes.
Four years later, it canceled the Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter. And now the Future Armed Reconnaissance Aircraft helicopter.

Times and the way of warfare change, but every time totally cancel programs is such a waste of time, money and resources. Its better to put it on hold and adapt the design, to continue later.
I guess they reasoned that building aircraft and equipping and training troops with a system that could not safely deliver a required capability was an even bigger waste.
My guess in this case they are probably right to cancel (and pursue uncrewed alternatives) - their mistake was leaving it too late but I have no way of knowing when the uncrewed alternatives became viable.
I agree entirely with your broader point in relation to some of their other cancelled (armoured vehicle) programs.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I guess they reasoned that building aircraft and equipping and training troops with a system that could not safely deliver a required capability was an even bigger waste.
My guess in this case they are probably right to cancel (and pursue uncrewed alternatives) - their mistake was leaving it too late but I have no way of knowing when the uncrewed alternatives became viable.
I agree entirely with your broader point in relation to some of their other cancelled (armoured vehicle) programs.
Very true.

I think where rotary wing is concerned the attack/scout capability is definately being overtaken by events, as armoured, big gun ships were in navies post WWII, and horse cavalry were post WWI.

I don't think we are at the point of cancelling F-35, Redback, Boxer, Hunter and Ghostbat to buy hundreds of thousands of cheap drones, but there is definately a shift in survivability, capability and value for money.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
A Mississippi National Guard AH-64 Apache crashed in a wooded area during a training mission in Mississippi on Friday 23 February.
Both aircrew members did not survive.

 

Terran

Well-Known Member
So in summary, the Army found that the 58 cal gun wore out too fast.
BAE Demonstrated a refit of the M109A7 with an L52 a few years back which seems like a good Intermum solution however ERCA wasn’t just demonstrating a long gun but also an automatic loader and a few other goodies not found on the M109A7 but common on foreign equivalents.

*note I messed up the designation and corrected it.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Unfortunate outcome, I have to admit the tube length was a problem. I wonder how bad the barrel wear was relative to the existing length on the M107A7?
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Unfortunate outcome, I have to admit the tube length was a problem. I wonder how bad the barrel wear was relative to the existing length on the M107A7?
Well remember the M109A7 is only a 39 cal 155mm. That’s a short barrel vs the modern standard 155mm 52 cal. Which is a good 8 foot shorter than the 58 of ERCA. Barrel life of a modern 155mm is stated around 1500 rounds of practice ammunition. So if the Army found the barrel wear excessive than it’s got to be below 1k rounds.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
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US Army selects Elbit Iron Fist system as the new APS for the M2 family. Initi fielding will be quick ( 1 year) and number only in the dozens of M2s to start but anticipation is to grow the fleets
Given the lessens learned fro UKraine this makes alot of sense


 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
US Army selects Elbit Iron Fist system as the new APS for the M2 family. Initi fielding will be quick ( 1 year) and number only in the dozens of M2s to start but anticipation is to grow the fleets
Given the lessens learned fro UKraine this makes alot of sense


If they go the turreted AMPV route some day, Elbit might get a turret contract as well:
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
@Big_Zucchini BAE’s XM30 pitch may have resembled the AMPV but it wasn’t. They never even started building an hull. Farther it’s DOA it failed along with Oshkosh and Point blank to get the downselect which went to Team Lynx and GDLS.
GDLS in its pitch does use Iron fist APS.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
@Big_Zucchini BAE’s XM30 pitch may have resembled the AMPV but it wasn’t. They never even started building an hull. Farther it’s DOA it failed along with Oshkosh and Point blank to get the downselect which went to Team Lynx and GDLS.
GDLS in its pitch does use Iron fist APS.
BAE refer to this as a common integration platform / prototype, and cite variants based on this effort that are now in service, such as a mortar variant AMPV. So I infer this as an effort to substitute conventional Bradleys now, rather than the long term OMFV project.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Will have to wait and see what BAE is up to in AUSA, but Its not indicated by the U.S. Army on that. The the External Mission Equipment Package which is what they are showing off has been demonstrated for the NEMO 120mm mortar and the Moog C-UAS system with a XM914 30mm gun. This one might be an attempt at pushing a replacement for the AIFV, a derivative of the M113 with a 25mm gun in an IFV configuration that proved a much more successful export vehicle than the Bradley.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The United States Army suffered the loss of two AH-64 Apache attack helicopters in three days, luckily without the loss of life.
Besides the two crashes described here, five other major mishaps were already reported in 2024.
So 2024 will be an expensive year for the US Army.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Hopefully this is the right thread, but because it was a US Army M109, i post it here.
Train slams into 18-wheeler carrying military vehicle in South Carolina (youtube.com)
Freight Train Smashes into Semi Carrying Military Artillery in Goose Creek, SC (youtube.com)

Luckily this crash was recorded from three different angles and nobody was hurt.
Looks like the truck driver didn’t make a wide enough turn and the right side seemed be partially in a ditch as he attempted to cross and got stuck. Luckily no injuries.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Interesting article about the considerations required for developing the NGSW. It's not just the 6.8 mm that matters.

NATO and the Next Generation Squad Weapon- NGSW » Wavell Room
The article I think focuses on one aspect of the XM7/XM250 selection but not all of them. To its detriment.
First although the Hybrid case is excellent and it enables the M7 to meet its goals.
However It wasn’t the only solution. The Hybrid case offering by Sig was selected as it allowed them to get extremely Spicy performance from a short barrel length and weight reduction required. The NGSW required about a 25% reduction in mass vs equivalent Brass cased ammunition and
Still get about 3000 to 3200 ft/s.
Military Arms Channel YouTube
Please note he is using non AP, GP contract overrun ammunition via a Commercial Sig Spear with a 16 inch barrel so groupings are respective of a combat rifle of 4MOA or better and there is a 3 inch barrel length advantage vs XM7.
This video is him using match grade ammunition and getting superior accuracy but at reduced pressure load and velocity.


Sig’s XM7 and XM250 are doing that with 13 and 17.5 inch barrels respectively. The last surviving competitor until selection was the Lone Star Future weapons/ True Velocity RM277. RM277 had to use a barrel of 19 for the rifle and 22 inches for the AR version in order to get the propellant burn time well keeping the pressure curve down and allowing the high velocity. However to meet the U.S. Army’s NGSW requirements the rifle had to have an overall length similar to the M4 carbine necessitating a bullpup configuration in the RM277 and other longer barrel submissions where conventional submissions had to devise hot loads to “brute Force” there way to the required velocity.
This velocity and in turn increased impact energy is intended for the U.S. Army’s concerns about Armor and cover. Feedback reports from initial units with the XM7 and XM250 the 101st AB and 3rd armored included remarks that highlighted this in description of rounds punching through cinder blocks and 9mm steel plates. With potential that it might be possible for it to Pen BTR, ZSL92 or Tigr light armored vehicles.


So an M4 sized package with AP performance but farther critical here is that the want is extended range AP performance.
The article touches on this aspect that most infantry training and engagement has been focused on battle ranges of less than 300m. Farther that in studies a tremendous drop in infantry units performance is noted beyond 300m. Training is clearly an important issue to be addressed but another is the technical limitations which part of what is not covered by the article.

In NGSW everyone is aware to the two most obvious platforms of the system. The XM7 rifle and the XM250 LMG. All are aware of the 6.8x51mm intermediate rifle cartridge with its hybrid case that is common between the XM7 and XM250. However there are two other common aspects for them. The Muzzle break/Suppressor and the Standardized XM157 LPVO.
“PEO Solder Lethality” said:
The XM157 system is a ruggedized fire control that increases accuracy and lethality for the Close Combat Force. It integrates a number of advanced technologies, including a variable magnification optic, backup etched reticle, laser rangefinder, ballistic calculator, atmospheric sensor suite, compass, Intra-Soldier Wireless, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and a digital display overlay.
This optic allows the Soldier using the M7/M250 a longer range of view and to take advantage of the capability of the 6.8x51mm. Though only with the training and range time. Though with the recent proliferation of laser warning devices to infantry that may require a redesign.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Would be interesting in hearing opinions from members on this article. The author is very pro rockets versus cannons.

 
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