The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
A depressing report on the RN’s declining frigate fleet. The Type 23, like The RAN’s Anzac class and the RCN’s Halifax class, all have to serve well past their “best before date” because of delays and budget screw-ups. Sad that three countries building T-26s can’t figure out how to build 30 plus ships between them at a decent cost with perhaps another 10 for allies.
www.navylookout.com
Royal Navy frigate strength to get worse before it gets better | Navy Lookout
www.navylookout.com
Type 26 should have been ordered much earlier is the thing - and this would have been much worse if the Type 31 hadn't been ordered (the build cycle for those much less complex ships is shorter)
I hope folk are making notes and looking at Type 83 accordingly because extending the Type 45's will get very expensive.
I hope folk are making notes and looking at Type 83 accordingly because extending the Type 45's will get very expensive.
If I recall correctly the Hunter was flagged as an ANZAC / FFG replacement as far back as 2009/10 by Stephen Smith.
The numbers mentioned were six, but this was also when the DWP listed a requirement for twenty combatants (not just OPVs) to replace the PBs, MCMs and survey vessels.
What goes around comes around.
I remember talking about what was future surface combatant around the 2000/2001 period and the first one is just in the water now I think.
It's too long a development cycle and that needs to be shorter. Of course, hilariously, during the period of slippages, BAE had a "terms of business agreement" in which they got guaranteed work - which wasn't forthcoming so the government had to order 3 batch 2 Rivers to keep the wheels turning.
I don't know how to fix this, perhaps some commons steering committee for defence planning or something that persists beyond a government to make sure we don't do this again ?
Afghanistan and Iraq were Vietnam all over again but also drew in many more western countries.
The focus became counter insurgency with new generations of conventional war fighting capabilities deferred, if not cancelled, to concentrate of sustaining the "War on Terror". Lots of boasting logistics and transport, force protection, but little on war fighting capabilities that can deal with peer or near peer foes.
The focus became counter insurgency with new generations of conventional war fighting capabilities deferred, if not cancelled, to concentrate of sustaining the "War on Terror". Lots of boasting logistics and transport, force protection, but little on war fighting capabilities that can deal with peer or near peer foes.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
It's all about £££.
The development cycle was long because there was no money to place orders. So the development cycle was extended, first in the hope that the government would give money for an ideal ship and later to try to find cheaper options. It's always cheaper to kick the can down the road - until it falls apart and you have nothing left to kick.
And then unit price was driven up by cutting numbers ordered and stretching the build times.
This was then worsened by scope creep after the build started. Realising the next generation was decades off, efforts were put into enhancing the capability of what was being built.
Money would be spent, the politicians would get sticker shock, so that work would be cut or curtailed, after significant sunk costs.
End result, very poor value for money.
It's a terrible situation from a succession of weak governments pretending that "push to the right" is viable procurement and "well they're not needed now" is a defence strategy.A depressing report on the RN’s declining frigate fleet. The Type 23, like The RAN’s Anzac class and the RCN’s Halifax class, all have to serve well past their “best before date” because of delays and budget screw-ups. Sad that three countries building T-26s can’t figure out how to build 30 plus ships between them at a decent cost with perhaps another 10 for allies.
Royal Navy frigate strength to get worse before it gets better | Navy Lookout
We are not sole offenders either - Constellation Class <cough cough>
The good news is help is on the way - UK/CAN/AUS will shortly produce an excellent class of surface combatants. I'd wager 5 are destined for Norway.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Yes, agree Norway will likely be an export customer for the T-26 via the UK. The only other candidate for export IMO is NZ. Given the urgency for new ships, neither Australia or Canada are really in a position to export their versions nor is the UK if they get an order from Norway.
I'm hopeful for Norway - it'd be so rare for a UK yard to land an order for a complex warship - and that would make the T26 global fleet into a sizeable affair. I'm not sure if 26 is a bit much ship for NZ - I don't know what their requirements are but if they are after something of the size and complexity of Type 26, I'm darn sure we can fit them in
If they were after something more like a fully loaded Type 31 on the other hand, that works.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
In a perfect world, one or all of the other 5EYE T-26 yards would have ships coming off the production line that would allow quick export opportunities. Three builders competing might allow for competitive pricing on a tier 1 ship which NZ really should have…..unfortunately the world isn’t perfect.I'm hopeful for Norway - it'd be so rare for a UK yard to land an order for a complex warship - and that would make the T26 global fleet into a sizeable affair. I'm not sure if 26 is a bit much ship for NZ - I don't know what their requirements are but if they are after something of the size and complexity of Type 26, I'm darn sure we can fit them in
I can't imagine the Kiwis buying a T26 platform. They are currently struggling to crew their existing ships and I doubt they could afford the price tag of any version.
NZ has at most always been a GP navy, so would be looking for lower cost multipurpose vessels to replace the two ANZACs. I would have thought the T31 is a better match, or possibly what ever Australia picks for their GPF.
From what I've read they are looking at around mid 2030 to replace them, so a little bit of time to select an option, and by then some yard capacity might open up.
NZ has at most always been a GP navy, so would be looking for lower cost multipurpose vessels to replace the two ANZACs. I would have thought the T31 is a better match, or possibly what ever Australia picks for their GPF.
From what I've read they are looking at around mid 2030 to replace them, so a little bit of time to select an option, and by then some yard capacity might open up.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I agree that a T26 option is unlikely for NZ but given the submarine proliferation in the Asia Pacific region it really is the frigate NZ should have.
This turned up on my news feed tonight. Looks like H&W are up to their eyes in it....
H & W cancels some of their apprenticeship intake for 2024.
H & W cancels some of their apprenticeship intake for 2024.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
The irony is that if they do go under, I'm not sure it will significantly affect FSSP as from memory Spain is doing the complex work. I think it would mean all the work being taken on by Cadiz and as a result maybe even being completed a bit faster.
That's really bad news for the local community - a whole bunch of young people looking forward to a career are now looking for jobs or college places in a scramble.
Given the impact, you have to wonder how the position is so bad at H&W that HMG won't help.
H&W have called in the money men & the 1st thing they did (according to the article), was to 'sack' the highest paid board members. The bean counters know that the biggest financial drawdown on any business is the number of staff that get paid - LESS staff, means MORE money.
Secondly, (again from the article), H&W went to both govt's (i.e. before & after the UK General Election) & H&W signed ink on paper contracts around costs & funding. It is a bitter pill to swallow when circumstances & the financial markets turn on you (with Babcock apparently having similar woes, trying to get funds outta UK PLC, if media reports are to be believed), but that is business.
True - Babcock are around 190 million underwater with Type 31 (started off as 90 million and seems to have doubled since)
I hope things turn around for H&W, it'd be a bitter blow for the surrounding communities. Mind, I come from a mining village so, yeah, kinda been there, got the t shirt.
I hope things turn around for H&W, it'd be a bitter blow for the surrounding communities. Mind, I come from a mining village so, yeah, kinda been there, got the t shirt.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
This is a copy of the post I made in the F-35 international thread.
Seems to be some debate wrt to the RN’s F-35B fleet size. An apparent budget black hole of 20£ billion is the reason and government is claiming GCAP and a bigger F-35B isn’t affordable. Given the range issue, block 4 delay, weapons integration delay, and increased sustainability costs for the “B” version, perhaps the carrier CATOBAR conversion may have been the better idea.
www.twz.com
Seems to be some debate wrt to the RN’s F-35B fleet size. An apparent budget black hole of 20£ billion is the reason and government is claiming GCAP and a bigger F-35B isn’t affordable. Given the range issue, block 4 delay, weapons integration delay, and increased sustainability costs for the “B” version, perhaps the carrier CATOBAR conversion may have been the better idea.
United Kingdom's F-35B Fleet Plans Under Threat As Defense Cuts Loom
Faced with defense budget constraints, a tough choice may need to be made between the F-35 and the Tempest stealth fighter program.
www.twz.com