Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I'm not sure civmec are covering themselves in glory with the Arafura project either. Or enjoying it. There is a lot of unserviceable hulls starting to pile up in their yard with nowhere to go.
I could be mistaken but I do not believe the issues with getting the Arafura-class OPV into RAN service are due to the the builder, or even more specifically Civmec. Nuship Arafura and Nuship Eyre were laid down in May 2019 and April 2020 respectively at ASC's Osborne yard, and they are still fitting out. Civmec should have four additional OPV's currently in various stages of construction. Having said that, it does appear that there are issues revolving around either the design itself and/or certification of the design. If there is a problem with getting a class of vessel certified, I could certainly see that being an issue and would likely cause a host of problems getting a vessel under construction completed.

If certification is as big an issue as it seems to be, I have to wonder if then perhaps Australia might need to review and perhaps revise some of the legislation and/or regulations which oversee maritime issues.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
You may be right. I suspect they still haven't enjoyed the experience though.

Civmec's quarterly report says that they have completed their work on the four hulls (so steelwork done) and they are with Luerssen for fitout. Their shipwright crews are now on other projects. Civmec's involvement in the project is now just renting land for the hulls to sit on.

Civmec do have a good reputation, they are doing a lot of work at the moment near where I work on the new lithium factory.

I am looking forwad to an eventual release of the Arafura build study and what went wrong. For such a simple build, it seems to have been amazingly complex. If it is an issue with local standards and legislation, or interfaces with classification, this would need to be resolved before we start the next programs. Wouldn't want to see a repeat with the landing ships or GPFs.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I don’t know what the situation with the Arafuras is, but when a new builder or designer first sets up in Australia there are ALWAYS compliance with regulations and certification issues. To take one small example, EU and Australian electrical standards, while very similar, are not identical. And Australian law, under which AMSA as the certifier of ships not yet part of the Navy has to operate, requires that any ship (or anything else for that matter) built here must meet the Australian standard. (That to some extent ignores certain equivalence provisions, but they don’t invalidate the argument.). And that is only one example amongst many.

Then, of course, they also have to also meet the Navy’s, usually somewhat different requirements - but also requirements set up under Australian lawn to meet Navy’s particular operating circumstances. That adds another layer of complexity.

Getting that start up to understand those requirements is a long and time consuming process, and implementing them (and proving compliance) is also not done overnight. We might not like it, but the only way around these issues - and some of them will apply to the new FF - would be to exempt Navy from certain Australian laws, particularly parts of the WHS act but also many others, and that would, I believe, be unacceptable to the majority of Australians - and probably the majority of people in the Navy.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
I wonder if that is where Silver yachts wil go. Development WA promised them a new facility some time ago, but it had all gone quiet. The only place I can see reporting on that story is Business News, but I refuse to pay their $95 per month membership. Is there any other information available in the article Reptilia?

Don't get me wrong civmec are a good business and have exactly the ship building facilities needed. I would just view that the state demand for their services (be that O&G, mining, infrastructure, or more recently new chemical plants) is high and likely will be so for a while. I just can't see them being able to commit in the order of half to 3/4 of that facility to ship building (particularly with a customer that is a cheapskate on price, comes with a huge bureaucracy and all too frequently attracts the news) when there is other more suited and lucrative work for them. Austal on the other hand are perfectly willing to make themselves a single supplier to Defence.

In the end I think just the sheer volume of work going out in general, particularly on a long term continuous basis, means a new facility is warranted. Also the government doesn't seem to be talking with civmec, only Austal. Maybe civmec have a role as a subcontractor producing some of the modules.

I'm not sure civmec are covering themselves in glory with the Arafura project either. Or enjoying it. There is a lot of unserviceable hulls starting to pile up in their yard with nowhere to go.
Silveryachts are meant to move into the new hall being built currently next to AME(north of AME, not the empty lot next to BAE)
65 Clarence Beach Rd. The building started going up awhile ago, not sure if it still is.

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SammyC

Well-Known Member
I don’t know what the situation with the Arafuras is, but when a new builder or designer first sets up in Australia there are ALWAYS compliance with regulations and certification issues. To take one small example, EU and Australian electrical standards, while very similar, are not identical. And Australian law, under which AMSA as the certifier of ships not yet part of the Navy has to operate, requires that any ship (or anything else for that matter) built here must meet the Australian standard. (That to some extent ignores certain equivalence provisions, but they don’t invalidate the argument.). And that is only one example amongst many.

Then, of course, they also have to also meet the Navy’s, usually somewhat different requirements - but also requirements set up under Australian lawn to meet Navy’s particular operating circumstances. That adds another layer of complexity.

Getting that start up to understand those requirements is a long and time consuming process, and implementing them (and proving compliance) is also not done overnight. We might not like it, but the only way around these issues - and some of them will apply to the new FF - would be to exempt Navy from certain Australian laws, particularly parts of the WHS act but also many others, and that would, I believe, be unacceptable to the majority of Australians - and probably the majority of people in the Navy.

Thanks spoz. It's an interesting conundrum. The government position of "if it's good enough for another navy, its good enough for us" goes counter to the above points.

It reminds me of the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object metaphore.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
I was wondering what would be regarded as a minor change in ship design. I ask because as I mentioned a little while back, the Soryu sub had an issue with human sizing- Japanese are shorter than Aussies. If this lead to an increase in dimensions throughout the entire ship, how much of an issue is this? mild? intermediate? big assed problem leading to 50% + more weight?
 

K.I.

Member
In relation to the GP Frigate baseline design being sought ‘as is’, do we think it’s fair, practical and perhaps logical to have subsequent numbers (domestic builds onwards) more adapted and built to Australian operating standards and systems?

thinking that the extra lead times of second and subsequent ‘tranche‘ numbers might afford some time for adaptation, yet not disrupting the urgency of the initial hulls in-service time.

this would then imply the initial overseas ‘tranche’ being unique in Australian service, until opportunity to refit or off-load them.
(perhaps the degree of commonality of the selected design might be more than pessimistically expected anyway?).

i hope that this will be the case, and think it most likely will happen.
RAN seems to view it as a 6(3+3)-5 build, so they seem to be planning for a second version with more customisation. Offloading the first six either through sale or loaning to our Pacific partners and then building another 6 would be a good move to keep a sustained turnover of new equipment.
 

K.I.

Member
Is this the longest build time for an 80m vessel? It will be interesting to see what weapons are fitted on these OPV’s as there was much interest and speculation on the size of gun and possible missile system years ago.
Arafura was fitted with a gun mount around February, looks like a Typhoon?
 

Attachments

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the update K.I.

Traditionally, the Typhoon mount is paired with the 25mm Bushmaster gun, but, as the Army’s Redback IFV’s are to fitted with the Mark 44 Stretch Bushmaster which fires 30mm projectiles, there’s a chance of commonality by fitting this weapon to the Arafura’s. The secondary gun system for the Hunter class has been confirmed as 30mm so it would make sense to standardise the ammunition across the fleet.

The Mk44 Bushmaster II is a 30 mm chain gunmanufactured by Northrop Grumman. It is a derivative of the 25 mm M242 Bushmaster, and uses 70% of the same parts as the M242 while increasing the firepower by as much as 50% with the 20% increase in caliber size. The barrel is chromium-plated for extended life. The gun uses standard GAU-8 Avenger ammunition that is available in API (Armor-Piercing Incendiary), HEI (High-Explosive Incendiary) and APFSDS-T (Armor-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot-Tracer) variants. It can fire the 30x173 mm Mk310 PABM-T airburst round.

Mk44 Bushmaster II - Wikipedia
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the update K.I.

Traditionally, the Typhoon mount is paired with the 25mm Bushmaster gun, but, as the Army’s Redback IFV’s are to fitted with the Mark 44 Stretch Bushmaster which fires 30mm projectiles, there’s a chance of commonality by fitting this weapon to the Arafura’s. The secondary gun system for the Hunter class has been confirmed as 30mm so it would make sense to standardise the ammunition across the fleet.

The Mk44 Bushmaster II is a 30 mm chain gunmanufactured by Northrop Grumman. It is a derivative of the 25 mm M242 Bushmaster, and uses 70% of the same parts as the M242 while increasing the firepower by as much as 50% with the 20% increase in caliber size. The barrel is chromium-plated for extended life. The gun uses standard GAU-8 Avenger ammunition that is available in API (Armor-Piercing Incendiary), HEI (High-Explosive Incendiary) and APFSDS-T (Armor-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot-Tracer) variants. It can fire the 30x173 mm Mk310 PABM-T airburst round.

Mk44 Bushmaster II - Wikipedia
At the time they decided to drop the Oto Marlin 40mm it was announced that the Arafura's would be fitted with the M242 25mm as an interim solution and of course the RAN will have 14 M242s removed from the Armidale's in storage, so probably just a re-fitted M242.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I find this a little concerning since a lot of it seems to be based on trust. In this case the $9.4 billion we sre investing into US and UK submarine manufacturing comes with no guarantees and no provision to refund that investment if any of the parties back down.

I personally don't think this will ever be an issue but still I am surprised that strict conditions weren't applied to this investment.

Also I know that the transfer of the first two submarines is subject to presidential and USN approval but I wonder what conditions apply to Australia when buying a new build of the production line.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Silveryachts are meant to move into the new hall being built currently next to AME(north of AME, not the empty lot next to BAE)
65 Clarence Beach Rd. The building started going up awhile ago, not sure if it still is.

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I went for a drive and inspected said lot next to AME. Yes there is a shed in construction, however its still in very early stages. Mostly just the foundations. Slow build, much the same as what google maps shows.

ANZAC looks very forelorn up on the hard stand next to civmec.
 
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south

Well-Known Member
I find this a little concerning since a lot of it seems to be based on trust. In this case the $9.4 billion we sre investing into US and UK submarine manufacturing comes with no guarantees and no provision to refund that investment if any of the parties back down.

I personally don't think this will ever be an issue but still I am surprised that strict conditions weren't applied to this investment.

Also I know that the transfer of the first two submarines is subject to presidential and USN approval but I wonder what conditions apply to Australia when buying a new build of the production line.
The lack of transparency, and evasive answering that is frequently seen in Estimates is disappointing.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
I went for a drive and inspected said lot next to AME. Yes there is a shed in construction, however its still in very early stages. Mostly just the foundations. Slow build, much the same as what google maps shows.

ANZAC looks very forelorn up on the hard stand next to civmec.
Has it been built up any further than what you can see on google maps street view?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
ANZAC looks very forelorn up on the hard stand next to civmec.
I wonder if two more may join her soon.

I find this a little concerning since a lot of it seems to be based on trust. In this case the $9.4 billion we sre investing into US and UK submarine manufacturing comes with no guarantees and no provision to refund that investment if any of the parties back down.
These are real concerns, but the money has been paid. I don't think the Americans will betray us, but America has a lot of priorities, and if they are fighting a high intensity peer war with China that has killed 100,000 sailors, and half their nuclear submarines, it would be inappropriate to give those subs to Australia. Which then raises the question of what do we do to help.

Collins not getting TLAM is significant IMO, if unsurprising. Optronics mast etc doesn't really matter. But as a platform that can move close enough fire a bunch of TLAMs, then move away, yeh Collins could do that, as TLAM have very long ranges. The fact that it could happen then shapes enemy actions. The B52 isn't used anymore to drop nuclear weapons inside Russia. Its not survivable for that. But it was super useful as a conventional bomb truck decades after. Collins won't be playing tag with submarines in 2040, but it could still be a useful launch platform. Collins looks like being essentially a training platform.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I don’t know what the situation with the Arafuras is, but when a new builder or designer first sets up in Australia there are ALWAYS compliance with regulations and certification issues. To take one small example, EU and Australian electrical standards, while very similar, are not identical. And Australian law, under which AMSA as the certifier of ships not yet part of the Navy has to operate, requires that any ship (or anything else for that matter) built here must meet the Australian standard. (That to some extent ignores certain equivalence provisions, but they don’t invalidate the argument.). And that is only one example amongst many.

Then, of course, they also have to also meet the Navy’s, usually somewhat different requirements - but also requirements set up under Australian lawn to meet Navy’s particular operating circumstances. That adds another layer of complexity.

Getting that start up to understand those requirements is a long and time consuming process, and implementing them (and proving compliance) is also not done overnight. We might not like it, but the only way around these issues - and some of them will apply to the new FF - would be to exempt Navy from certain Australian laws, particularly parts of the WHS act but also many others, and that would, I believe, be unacceptable to the majority of Australians - and probably the majority of people in the Navy.
The average person has no idea how much impact international regulations, treaties, as well as Australian Federal and state requirements have on projects in general, let alone things as complex as warships.

Why do people think there have been similar issues with offshore gas, and major infrastructure and building projects?

Quite a few people, including too many project and commercial managers for my liking, are of the attitude that technical people who point these things out are road blocks and time wasters and the solution is to bipass them, get rid of them, hire more compliant (as in do what they are told, not what they are supposed to do), or even offshore entire projects.

What happens when the processes aren't followed or don't exist?
- Arafura
- Supply (A0R)
- Gorgon gas project
- building cracking and collapses
- bridge collapses
- rework on road projects
- new cars having multiple safety recalls
- aircrashes

This is not an Australian problem, it is a global problem. In the west it is the MBA culture and corruption, in the rest of the world it is totalitarianism and criminalise. Easy simple answers are the go-to of the simple minded populists and thugs who run, or believe they should run things.

The thinkers, the artisans, the technocrats and scientists are being demonised by opportunists and their dribbling moron followers. Hell, even historians are in the gun when they produce archival evidence of what really happened in the past when it doesn't fit current narratives.

Sorry about the rant but we are where we are because of offshoring and shrinking our hard won sovereign design capability.

Look at the Australianised CMS on the Hobart's, it worked. Look at ANZAC ASMD, and the Collins Replacement Combat System and Heavy Weight Torpedo. Look at Tiger, and MU-90, Australia had to take the lead as we overtook the parent operators. This was locally managed and run complex integration and certification work that worked well.

Now we are outsourcing it and it's going to shit. Military Systems integration used to be one of our strengths, now it's been gutted. Look at the results.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The lack of transparency, and evasive answering that is frequently seen in Estimates is disappointing.
Unfortunately it is part and parcel of the current political and media environment, the daily news cycle with minute by minute updates and self appointed experts proclaiming their two cents more loudly that the people who actually know are allowed to.

There will be multiple updates and white noise drowning out the actual information before the witness has finished speaking. Too big, too small, too fast, too slow, too expensive, too cheap, all at the same time.

When you have grandstanding clowns like Shoebridge aiming for gotcha moments, the narrative has to be strictly controlled.

The truth is we are dealing with systematic and cultural problems arising from decisions and policies as far back as the mid and late 90s, yet the narrative is every single problem (depending on your politics) is either the fault of Marles/Albanese, or Dutton/Morrison.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I wonder if two more may join her soon.


These are real concerns, but the money has been paid. I don't think the Americans will betray us, but America has a lot of priorities, and if they are fighting a high intensity peer war with China that has killed 100,000 sailors, and half their nuclear submarines, it would be inappropriate to give those subs to Australia. Which then raises the question of what do we do to help.

Collins not getting TLAM is significant IMO, if unsurprising. Optronics mast etc doesn't really matter. But as a platform that can move close enough fire a bunch of TLAMs, then move away, yeh Collins could do that, as TLAM have very long ranges. The fact that it could happen then shapes enemy actions. The B52 isn't used anymore to drop nuclear weapons inside Russia. Its not survivable for that. But it was super useful as a conventional bomb truck decades after. Collins won't be playing tag with submarines in 2040, but it could still be a useful launch platform. Collins looks like being essentially a training platform.
Or if they did provide them to us in a war, then we would be expected to join the fight.

Of note, we would be a valuable ally to the US at the turn of the decade for their own SSN capability.

By 2030/34 we would have something in the order of 1,000 qualified SSN sailors and officers, either serving in USN subs or available in Australia for posting back to sea. Given vessels can be tied up for just a small number of critical crew, this might be enough to keep several boats operational that otherwise would not be.

We would also have a fully kitted and spurred maintenance and training facility in FBW, with the qualified civilian staff to run it. And the local industry to support it. The Americans currently cannot fix and service their boats fast enough, especially in areas close to (but protected from) the fight.

Furthermore we would have most of a new sub construction facility in operation, that could pump out parts or modules for Virginias to replace damage or losses. A lot of the supply chain would also be in place as we would be at the point of building the first of the AUKUS by the mid 30's.

I would view that in the 30's, the scarcity becomes less the platform and more the people. The Americans may actually need us to staff and maintain their own boats. The conversation flips and would be about us helping them, rather than them deciding to sell us subs.

Subs on station is the important factor, less who owns the sub.

I'm also thinking that once USN SSN maintenance commences in FBW, we could well recoup the upfront investment. That stuff is not cheap and I doubt there would be mates rates.
 
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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
At the time they decided to drop the Oto Marlin 40mm it was announced that the Arafura's would be fitted with the M242 25mm as an interim solution and of course the RAN will have 14 M242s removed from the Armidale's in storage, so probably just a re-fitted M242.
A 25mm on a Typhoon mount, which looked from the river to be second hand, was mounted in Arafura on Feb 13.
 
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