Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
- Thread starter OPSSG
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You are including life extended ANZACs as MFUs but not the larger more capable GP frigates.
Let me switch this around.
Eight tier 2 ANZAC class patrol frigates (that were upgraded into compromised GP Frigates) are now to be replaced by eleven larger, more capable GP frigates, which have been designed as such from conception.
This recasts the six Hunters as belated replacements for the six Adelaide class (OHP FFG-07) FFGs. The DDGs are replacements for the Perth class (Adams) DDGs.
The RAN is still getting six Arafuras and the Armidales are being replaced by Capes.
I will make a (relevant) political point. This expanded surface fleet has been proposed by a Labor government, it would be a very "courageous" move for a future CLP government to reduce numbers or cut capability.
What happened to the RAN from the mid 90s to now was a factor of the post Coldwar peace dividend, successive governments cut numbers and cut the capability specified for replacement platforms because of our strategically benign environment.
That has long gone.
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iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
If the Capes are commissioned they will need some teeth. The Arafuras have the same problem and they will be commisioned.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Why?
They are constabulary vessels, the Browning M2's they are fitted with are likely more then sufficient for that task.
Saying that, the RAN has multiple shipsets of Typhoon mounts (at least 14) fitted with 25mm cannon that came off the Armidale Class that could probably be fitted if there was seen to be a need.
Capes expected service life is 20 years.
Would have to continue buying more Capes to get to a fleet of 25 minor vessels.
Will they continue with the Evolved Capes or move to a new design? All Armidales left and Up to 8 of the ABF Capes might be decommissioned within the next decade.
Indopacific 2023 had Austal offering to fit capes with 25mm gun and 1 quad nsm launcher, replacing 1 of the rhibs.
ABF(8)
1-Cape St George 2013-2033
2-Cape Byron 2014-2034
3-Cape Nelson 2014-2034
4-Cape Sorell 2014-2034
5-Cape Jervis 2015-2035
6-Cape Leveque 2015-2035
7-Cape Wessel 2015-2035
8-Cape York 2015-2035
RAN(18 in a few years)
9-Cape Fourcroy 2017-2037
10-Cape Inscription 2017-2037
11-Cape Otway(Evolved) 2022-2042
12-Cape Peron(Evolved) 2022-2042
13-Cape Naturaliste(Evolved) 2022-2042
14-Cape Capricorn(Evolved) 2023-2043
15-Cape Woolamai(Evolved) 2023-2043
16-Cape Pillar(Evolved) 2023-2043
17-Cape Solander(Evolved) 2024-2044
18-Cape Schank(Evolved) 2024-2044
19-Cape ?(Evolved) 2025-2045
20-Cape ?(Evolved) 2025-2045
+
1-OPV Arafura 2024
2-OPV Eyre 2025
3-OPV Pilbara 2025
4-OPV Gippsland 2026
5-OPV Illawarra 2026
6-OPV Carpentaria 2027
Would have to continue buying more Capes to get to a fleet of 25 minor vessels.
Will they continue with the Evolved Capes or move to a new design? All Armidales left and Up to 8 of the ABF Capes might be decommissioned within the next decade.
Indopacific 2023 had Austal offering to fit capes with 25mm gun and 1 quad nsm launcher, replacing 1 of the rhibs.
ABF(8)
1-Cape St George 2013-2033
2-Cape Byron 2014-2034
3-Cape Nelson 2014-2034
4-Cape Sorell 2014-2034
5-Cape Jervis 2015-2035
6-Cape Leveque 2015-2035
7-Cape Wessel 2015-2035
8-Cape York 2015-2035
RAN(18 in a few years)
9-Cape Fourcroy 2017-2037
10-Cape Inscription 2017-2037
11-Cape Otway(Evolved) 2022-2042
12-Cape Peron(Evolved) 2022-2042
13-Cape Naturaliste(Evolved) 2022-2042
14-Cape Capricorn(Evolved) 2023-2043
15-Cape Woolamai(Evolved) 2023-2043
16-Cape Pillar(Evolved) 2023-2043
17-Cape Solander(Evolved) 2024-2044
18-Cape Schank(Evolved) 2024-2044
19-Cape ?(Evolved) 2025-2045
20-Cape ?(Evolved) 2025-2045
+
1-OPV Arafura 2024
2-OPV Eyre 2025
3-OPV Pilbara 2025
4-OPV Gippsland 2026
5-OPV Illawarra 2026
6-OPV Carpentaria 2027
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My question is… what to do with the 6 Arafura class ships?
The surface fleet review has them unsuitable for MCM or Survey so do they just become regional ships flying the flag in the pacific?
Surely they could be used for surveying and mcm using unmanned drones loaded on and off with little redesign as they have space and size in this regard and intended for modular payloads.
The surface fleet review has them unsuitable for MCM or Survey so do they just become regional ships flying the flag in the pacific?
Surely they could be used for surveying and mcm using unmanned drones loaded on and off with little redesign as they have space and size in this regard and intended for modular payloads.
No 20 MFUs = 9 Tier 1 and 11 Tier 2 in my book. When I referred to 9 or less later in the post I meant “DDGs and FFHs in service after retirements” so sorry that wasn’t clear (as it coincidentally is the same number as Tier 1s).
I am happy with the 2024 proposed force structure but the thing I don’t like is the Ministerial announcement pretending that the LOCSVs expand the number of major warships to 26. LOCSVs, so far as I can judge from info on the USN LUSV program, will be auxiliary magazines for Tier 1s.
Why is that a problem? A future decision maker (new govt or minister or PM) might maintain (or even expand) optionally crewed vessel numbers while cutting more expensive crewed vessels with the political cover that they are maintaining fleet numbers. If that is driven by budget, at the expense of necessary capability, then that is a problem.
I think you are right about the high political cost of cancelling programs but incoming decision makers have shown that they can cut and cancel programs providing they promise something else to be built in the same electorates.
We tried the larger patrol boat option with the Arafuras. That didn't work out too well, mostly as the majority of the role could be done with a smaller vessel and smaller crew at lower cost. I think it is important to remember that patrol boats are the equivalent of the police car with pistols and tasars. They are not tactical response or riot control.
The patrol boat fleet covers the near shore constabulary role (poaching, immigration etc) of which there is a lot of work and the fleet is kept busy. They are however never going to be front line (or second or third line) combat vessels, and as such I can't see them getting big guns or missiles.
I would have the view that as the old capes retire, they will be replaced with new evolved capes. Maybe evolved II capes, but nothing much more. Austal will make them as required in their existing sheds. They are cheap and chearful, and they seem to work OK. I haven't heard much bad about them. Also, a lot of the patrol function is basic surveillance, so don't be suprised when border force get some fancy recon drones to supplement their fleet.
As to what happens with the Arafuras, we are yet to see. I personally think they will be useful in the broader S Pacific and SE Asia patrol routine (unsurprisingly the offshore function), taking the workload off the MFUs (which are in short supply) with general visitations and presence. I would view that they can add some value here, maybe even become successful. Volkodav earlier made the statement that sometimes you don't need to be the biggest, you just need to turn up and look neat and tidy. I think the Arafuras can do this quite well.
Tbone, I think your point of how defence manages the grey zone is valid and will become more of an issue over time and will get uncomfortably closer to our shores. I'm not sure patrol boats are the answer to covering this though. I watch how China pushes the Philippine Navy small boats around (somewhat brutally), so this job really becomes a coast guard cutter or GP frigate role. Contrary to my above point on the Arafuras, this is a time where you need to be the big guy in a tank top doing bicep flexes.
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Yep it is all smoke and mirrors. Every time you alter a plan you get to push back the timeline which means you get to delay paying out more money. Not only that if you can spin the story just right you often elicit a positive response from the press and general public.
What the public reads is that you are increasing the size of the surface fleet to 26 warships. The reality is that you are actually reducing the size of the surface fleet by scrapping a couple of ANZACs and cutting back some existing projects, Of course at some unspecified time down the track new warships are coming but the track record of both political parties to deliver on these promises is pretty poor.
InterestedParty
Active Member
Would it be feasible to gift the Arafuras to some of the larger Pacific nations such as Fiji and PNG? They should be capable of manning them and doing the lower level maintenance
I’m not sure we should gift them.. they are very capable assets but mixed crewing of Pacific Islanders would be a great way to push for a pacific forum fleet. They could base 2 Arafura class vessels at Lombrum PNG and Stanley Fiji and have one 2 in maintenance back in Australia and rotate vessels and crews. This would provide consistent presences and be able to respond to any conflict or humanitarian operation. The Arafura can carry many things in its multi mission deco and cargo. It would be impressive to have a pacific forum fleet consisting of the Arafura under Australian command . It would stop China in its tracks. And bring the pacific nations and Australia closer together. The spartan aircraft now that they are being replaced with new Hercules could also be transferred to a pacific air wing to provide support to all pacific nations and disaster relief. They have been used for maritime patrol. Again pacific personal to be used with Australians. Based in png and Fiji.
Depends what they are constabularying.
A couple of Indonesian wooden fishing boats and people smugglers? with a displacement of 50t, a .50 cal is over kill.
A large modern, steel hull, 1000t+ fishing fleet ignoring EEZs.. A .50 cal is probably not enough. It probably wouldn't go through the deck housing outer plate on some ships. Not to mention they not old, barely thrown together ships with a car or tuktuk engine inboard. So closing the gap to even be able to put a few rounds in their general area may be too much for a . 50cal.
Actually what might be useful is a powerful water cannon(s).
Plus useful against, fires, at protests (sea Shepard type stunts), pirates, or ceremonies. Also may have a use during spills, beached whales, shipping hazards, etc. Being able to spray water seems pretty useful. I believe there are also sonic or lighting options available
I think these ships we should have a hard look at our non-lethal options.
Plenty of posts going back years of how doing EEZ patrols and SAR missions out as far as Christmas Is shortened the life of the ACPBs.
Not sure how much better the Capes are.
A bigger vessel like the Arafura has a role in these waters.
Flexson
Active Member
Agree.
When government is consistently tasking Leeuwin, Melville, Besant and Stoker to Op Resolute then there is a clear place for the Arafura's.
There's even been a couple of the Huon's over the last 6 months doing Resolute.
Reality check, the ANZACs are worn out, they have had very hard lives filling a role they were not designed or procured for.
The situation is not ideal but spending a couple of billion to upgrade a platform with a finite life and limited potential to increase capability just does not make sense.
The technical workload of selecting and procuring a new, much more capable GP frigate should not be under estimated. The APS, ADF and industry are really struggling due to decades of under investment in complex trade and technical skills.
To be honest, we would probably have been better off retaining Melbourne and Newcastle.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
This just one of the reasons why I question the thinking behind the announcement of a plan to select, order and then build 11 frigates of a new and yet to be determined class, designer and shipyards. It still strikes me that the Hunter-class frigates which are already under construction could more likely be brought into service by the originally planned 2032 in-service date. Attempting to jumpstart an all new class acquisition programme, get it built and then brought into RAN service before the Hunter-class sounds rather optimistic if I am being kind.
If one also factors in what will then need to happen in order for the rest of the vessels to be built in Australia, the language becomes... less kind.
The cost of 9 Hunters ballooned out to 65 billion, 7+ billion per unit. Now we are looking at 6 Hunters with no design changes for approx 45 billion.
With 6 Tier 1 Hunters, we may not even see the Hobart class replaced, instead more LOSVs with even more VLS cells and the Tier 2 frigate production line continue at Henderson past the planned 8 or get more built overseas on top of the 3. With the money put forward by government, tier 2 frigates look to cost a 1/3 or less than that of 1 Hunter class.
It’s what the Government/Navy wanted when the Tier 1 and 2 fleet structure came out, huge cost savings, significantly less crew required and more numerous ships.