Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

[John Fedup]

Our North, Strong and Free: A Renewed Vision for Canada’s Defence - Canada.ca

A Renewed Vision for Canada’s Defence

www.canada.ca

From page 25

"To detect and manage airborne threats, we will
acquire airborne early warning aircraft. These
aircraft detect aircraft and missiles at long ranges in
real time and from much further away than groundbased
radars, and then manage the battle space in
response to a threat."

I'm not sure what they are referring to here. Is this in reference to the announced purchase of the MQ-9B SkyGuardian or a future requisition of something like the E-7 Wedgetail?

E-7 is likely too expensive for the current government. More likely is a Bombardier/Saab GlobalEye, an offering to Bombardier after losing the maritime patrol deal to the P-8.

 

[Redlands18]

E-7 is likely too expensive for the current government. More likely is a Bombardier/Saab GlobalEye, an offering to Bombardier after losing the maritime patrol deal to the P-8.

And yet all the advantages of operating the same aircraft as its NORAD, NATO and 5Eye partners would make the E-7 cheaper in the long run as well as being easier to integrate. They would also be able to get it as an FMS deal, added to the USAF order. Maybe commonsense will prevail.

 

[John Fedup]

And yet all the advantages of operating the same aircraft as its NORAD, NATO and 5Eye partners would make the E-7 cheaper in the long run as well as being easier to integrate. They would also be able to get it as an FMS deal, added to the USAF order. Maybe commonsense will prevail.

There was no realistic alternative to the P-8 but the GlobalEye offers reasonable capabilities, has significant Canadian content and a larger number could be acquired compared to E-7. In the end, it will be dependent on the cost capability ratio. An aggressive E-7 price for Canada will be a US/Australia/Boeing decision.

 

[John Fedup]

The amount of money for airborne early warning aircraft is abount $300 million according to this CTV link, not enough for a single E-7. Also 18 billion for utility helicopters to replace Griffons...WTF! Likely a Bell model build in Quebec with insertable VIP modules for pollies.

Canada's new defence spending explained | CTV News

 

[Redlands18]

The amount of money for airborne early warning aircraft is abount $300 million according to this CTV link, not enough for a single E-7. Also 18 billion for utility helicopters to replace Griffons...WTF! Likely a Bell model build in Quebec with insertable VIP modules for pollies.

Canada's new defence spending explained | CTV News

$300m for AEW, what someone in a hot air balloon gondola with a pair of binoculars?.

 

[John Fedup]

$300m for AEW, what someone in a hot air balloon gondola with a pair of binoculars?.

Probably but only the balloon is funded, the binocular requirement will have to be “explored”.

 

[OldTex]

Also 18 billion for utility helicopters to replace Griffons...WTF! Likely a Bell model build in Quebec with insertable VIP modules for pollies.

Even allowing for the reported C$18billion being the whole-of-life cost, the reported funding would buy a hell of a lot of helicopters.
Especially when there are purchases being reported (Greece for 35 UH-60M) for almost US$2billion and that quoted price seems to cover everything that opens and shuts.

 

[Sender]

$300m for AEW, what someone in a hot air balloon gondola with a pair of binoculars?.

Looks like the program cost is actually around $5.0Bil:

Canada Plans To Spend C$5 Billion On AEW Aircraft | Aviation Week Network

Canada plans to spend more than C$5 billion ($3.65 billion) on the acquisition of airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft, defense officials have confirmed.

aviationweek.com

 

[John Fedup]

Looks like the program cost is actually around $5.0Bil:

Canada Plans To Spend C$5 Billion On AEW Aircraft | Aviation Week Network

Canada plans to spend more than C$5 billion ($3.65 billion) on the acquisition of airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft, defense officials have confirmed.

aviationweek.com

So the first $300 million is being spent on AEW from 2024 to throughout the 2030s. Somebody in junior's world figured out AEW needed more money so out pops $3 billion.....as soon as the money printer recovers from all the other promises!

From the link, "But critics said the plans only commit to exploring new capabilities rather than funding them, while the burden of increased spending has been placed on future administrations over the next 20 years. "

As for the E-7, would be nice to have but the Bombardier/SAAB Global Eye will be a hard package to beat politically and it is a decent AEW option assuming the money will be available.

 

[Terran]

Canada has been one of the country’s in NATO whom have been below the 2% threshold. Latest report I saw was 1.38%.
And it’s not a new issue, factor in a glacial speed of procurement and this is basically same story as Germany. It will take a decade of consistent strategy and higher investment costs to get the Canadian military into a position where they can live up to their stated commitment of being a regional partner. Fortunately for Canada they have the United States siamese twined to them and the two nations have very good relations. Still having a strong independent military capability is essential particularly as Canada is an Arctic country and that region is expected to be a major economic development and geopolitical hotspot as time progresses.

The latter I think also leads more to Globaleye as its surface scan capability comes into play in the region where both air and sea are risk zones.
E7 is an excellent AWACS but not so much for surface. Besides given the US Canadian treaties and relations of NORAD it’s likely the the USAF will be operating E7 in an around Canadian airspace on a regular basis.

 

[John Fedup]

It will be interesting to see what consistent strategies for defence happen over the next 10-15 years after junior is gone. The programs underway and promised for the RCAF and RCN will enhance both services. Unfortunately little has been mentioned about capital expenditures for the army albeit the lessons from Ukraine are a reasonable excuse for “exploring” options.

 

[swerve]

So the first $300 million is being spent on AEW from 2024 to throughout the 2030s. Somebody in junior's world figured out AEW needed more money so out pops $3 billion.....as soon as the money printer recovers from all the other promises!

From the link, "But critics said the plans only commit to exploring new capabilities rather than funding them, while the burden of increased spending has been placed on future administrations over the next 20 years. "

As for the E-7, would be nice to have but the Bombardier/SAAB Global Eye will be a hard package to beat politically and it is a decent AEW option assuming the money will be available.

Three NATO countries (now Sweden's joined) operate Erieye. One of those three has ordered Globaleye. Poland has recently obtained secondhand SAAB 340 Erieye, formerly operated by the UAE & replaced by Globaleye. Whether this will lead to a Globaleye order is unknown. Erieye is fully interoperable with NATO air defence.

 

[Sender]

Three NATO countries (now Sweden's joined) operate Erieye. One of those three has ordered Globaleye. Poland has recently obtained secondhand SAAB 340 Erieye, formerly operated by the UAE & replaced by Globaleye. Whether this will lead to a Globaleye order is unknown. Erieye is fully interoperable with NATO air defence.

Assuming the GlobalEye Saab radar has similar performance to that of the E-7 (I have not found any good comparisons, but one would presume it has to be at least in the same ballpark), the GlobalEye is a good solution for Canada. It's both cheaper than the E-7, has a longer flight range, and significant Canadian content. The RCN currently flies Challenger aircraft, so the RCAF has already got the support arrangements in place with Bombardier. And while there is a definite advantage to flying the same plane as allies (from a logistics perspective), as @swerve indicated above, the GlobalEye is fully interoperable with NATO forces. It may in fact enhance NATO's capabilities to have two platforms with different strengths.

Saab Bolstered By GlobalEye’s Growing International Interest | Aviation Week Network

Saab is getting ready to fly the UAE's fifth GlobalEye platform as the company sees an uptick in international interest in the business-jet-based AEW aircraft.

aviationweek.com

DAS 2021: Saab made a presentation about its GlobalEye AEW&C solution

During the current edition of the Dubai Air Show, the renowned Swedish company made a presentation to the specialized press on one of its most outstanding produ

www.aviacionline.com

Sweden Orders GlobalEye Early Warning Aircraft From Saab ($711Mil for two platforms)

France To Study GlobalEye As Potential E-3 Replacement | Aviation Week Network

France is to study Saab’s GlobalEye airborne early warning (AEW) platform as a potential replacement for its Boeing E-3 Sentry.

aviationweek.com

 

[Sender]

Assuming the GlobalEye Saab radar has similar performance to that of the E-7 (I have not found any good comparisons, but one would presume it has to be at least in the same ballpark), the GlobalEye is a good solution for Canada. It's both cheaper than the E-7, has a longer flight range, and significant Canadian content. The RCN currently flies Challenger aircraft, so the RCAF has already got the support arrangements in place with Bombardier. And while there is a definite advantage to flying the same plane as allies (from a logistics perspective), as @swerve indicated above, the GlobalEye is fully interoperable with NATO forces. It may in fact enhance NATO's capabilities to have two platforms with different strengths.

Saab Bolstered By GlobalEye’s Growing International Interest | Aviation Week Network

Saab is getting ready to fly the UAE's fifth GlobalEye platform as the company sees an uptick in international interest in the business-jet-based AEW aircraft.

aviationweek.com

DAS 2021: Saab made a presentation about its GlobalEye AEW&C solution

During the current edition of the Dubai Air Show, the renowned Swedish company made a presentation to the specialized press on one of its most outstanding produ

www.aviacionline.com

Sweden Orders GlobalEye Early Warning Aircraft From Saab ($711Mil for two platforms)

France To Study GlobalEye As Potential E-3 Replacement | Aviation Week Network

France is to study Saab’s GlobalEye airborne early warning (AEW) platform as a potential replacement for its Boeing E-3 Sentry.

aviationweek.com

Unless there is some dramatic difference in capability between the Wedgetail and the GlobalEye, the GoC will NOT be able to sole source this like they did with the P-8. So, there will be a competition, and given the heavy emphasis on industrial offsets, it will be pretty hard this time to disqualify the GlobalEye. Also, Saab has a pretty decent footprint in Canada already. That, plus the Bombardier component, is a pretty hard act to follow. Will be interesting to see the final outcome.

 

[John Fedup]

Unless there is some dramatic difference in capability between the Wedgetail and the GlobalEye, the GoC will NOT be able to sole source this like they did with the P-8. So, there will be a competition, and given the heavy emphasis on industrial offsets, it will be pretty hard this time to disqualify the GlobalEye. Also, Saab has a pretty decent footprint in Canada already. That, plus the Bombardier component, is a pretty hard act to follow. Will be interesting to see the final outcome.

Tend to agree with your assessment but Boeing do a have a considerable footprint in Canada as well and you can’t rule out the Quebec/Bombardier backlash from Western Canada and some regions of Ontario. This would more important during a Conservative government where support from these regions is critical for survival, not so much for a Liberal government. The other looming issue is confidence in Boeing, somewhat suspect these days.

 

[Terran]

Back log may be a big factor. If Ottawa is serious.
With Boeing’s issues of production the FAA is forcing Boeing to slow down. That’s likely to delay 737NG production. The USAF and RAF already have their orders in and are likely to take priority delivery of the airframes. Meanwhile Northrop Grumman has to build the radar sets that’s another period of lead time and production with finally the conversion where they basically take the 737NG apart and put it back together with the radar again. Conversion alone is a year on either type with certification.

 

[John Fedup]

@Terran …you hit the nail on the head, “If Canada is serious”. The logistical delays you mention won’t matter if our glacial military procurement remains the same.

 

[swerve]

Back log may be a big factor. If Ottawa is serious.
With Boeing’s issues of production the FAA is forcing Boeing to slow down. That’s likely to delay 737NG production. The USAF and RAF already have their orders in and are likely to take priority delivery of the airframes. Meanwhile Northrop Grumman has to build the radar sets that’s another period of lead time and production with finally the conversion where they basically take the 737NG apart and put it back together with the radar again. Conversion alone is a year on either type with certification.

Would secondhand airframes be acceptable? And if so, what's the availability?

Same for Globaleye. SAAB's offering it on Global 6500 now, instead of 6000, but presumably could fit out used 6000s instead of new 6500s. What would the lead time be?

I have no idea, & I'm not suggesting you really know, but any potential buyer has to consider these factors.

I see that Italy is standardising on Gulfstream G550 for AEW, SIGINT & related functions (total of 10, I think) but I don't see that as realistic for Canada, for industrial reasons.

 

[Terran]

The RAF is using used Boeing 737NGs for most of its E7. However it gets complicated. Yes used 737NGs are available but being used airliners means that they don’t have the life expectancy of new. So you streamline the procurement as you don’t have to sit in the line for a new 737 bbj but you still have to wait for Northrop Grumman’s MESA radar, defensive aids then the strip conversion. Given the USAF orders and production rates even used would still probably not have IOC until late next decade and a big question on cost as even the USAF is having an issue with Boeing on the E7.

Using the Globaleye on the 6000 vs the 6500 would likely depend on the amount of commonality and systems compatibility. In my completely unqualified opinion you would probably loose some of the package in the process.
This said there are used Global Express 6500 on the market already and by the time of a hypothetical buy even if Canada managed to speed force through a procurement process there would be more.

 

[Sender]

The RAF is using used Boeing 737NGs for most of its E7. However it gets complicated. Yes used 737NGs are available but being used airliners means that they don’t have the life expectancy of new. So you streamline the procurement as you don’t have to sit in the line for a new 737 bbj but you still have to wait for Northrop Grumman’s MESA radar, defensive aids then the strip conversion. Given the USAF orders and production rates even used would still probably not have IOC until late next decade and a big question on cost as even the USAF is having an issue with Boeing on the E7.

Using the Globaleye on the 6000 vs the 6500 would likely depend on the amount of commonality and systems compatibility. In my completely unqualified opinion you would probably loose some of the package in the process.
This said there are used Global Express 6500 on the market already and by the time of a hypothetical buy even if Canada managed to speed force through a procurement process there would be more.

The UAE versions were based on the 6000, and the Swedish versions will be based on the 6500s. I don't think either would pose a problem. However, the 6500 is faster, flies higher, and is longer ranged. I highly doubt Canada would buy used airframes given the government's desire to boost a Canadian business.

Bombardier Delivers 7th Business Jet for Saab’s GlobalEye Program

Saab has accepted the seventh business jet from Bombardier to be configured as a GlobalEye Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft.

www.thedefensepost.com