Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

AndyinOz

Member
Australian Sailors Embed Aboard Submarine Tender for Nuclear Experience - Naval News Interesting little short article I came across on the deployment of RAN personnel to Guam and the USS Emory S. Land tender. Quite obviously it is of importance than not only do we develop a cadre of personnel to operate the new capability at sea but also concurrently to maintain the boats when they are not off doing their 'secret squirrel' work.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

Very interesting and an illustration of why the FREMM was not, and still is not, a suitable option for the RAN.

It is too small, too limited, and poor value for money as it is still a very expensive ship, but with limited capability and insufficient growth margins.

The same applies to the updated F-100 and especially the F-110.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

Very interesting and an illustration of why the FREMM was not, and still is not, a suitable option for the RAN.

It is too small, too limited, and poor value for money as it is still a very expensive ship, but with limited capability and insufficient growth margins.

The same applies to the updated F-100 and especially the F-110.
The difference being the US will create a production line of ships to reduce the costs, with hulls 10 and beyond being a franction of the initial cost. They'd start overseas orders by that point and explore fleets wanting Oliver Hazard Perry style FFG.

They will aid the US in being anywhere in the world for any crisis. At the moment, the USN is stretched out with Burkes being needed to cover the gaps created by the rush job of LCS not be suitable. These Burkes are in need of maintenance before a crisis develops.

Right now, if they were in service a Constellation would be in the Red Sea providing surface coverage while Burkes take to the skies instead of covering all aspects and draining their crews (except Ops teams who are just swinging their hard ons:p)

Its meant to be an immediate coverage vessel with strong support from regional Burkes or Task Force inbound like a...well like an expected Tomahawk missile when you piss of the US Military as certain groups are learning.
 

iambuzzard

Active Member
Sad to see the Hunter class is back in the news based around rumours of a reduction of the build. As Volkodav said, it is the best of the options available, production has started, and BAe have stated the design can be modified during the production run to give us what could be almost a light cruiser based on displacement and projected weapons load out. Lets all wait for the naval review to come out which I suspect is going to recommend acquiring about 6 or so light frigates to supplement the existing and planned fleet. I'm no expert as most of you guys are but common sense says that's a viable option as long as the government gets recruitment and retention rates up. Otherwise it's all in fantasy land. Cheers,
Buzzard.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Perhaps after the first hulls are started and when results of the current Red Sea operation are analyzed by Western navies pollies might realize there is better value in high end ships like the T26, especially considering the potential enemy has vastly superior missiles and more of them along with a rapidly increasing submarine fleet.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Sad to see the Hunter class is back in the news based around rumours of a reduction of the build. As Volkodav said, it is the best of the options available, production has started, and BAe have stated the design can be modified during the production run to give us what could be almost a light cruiser based on displacement and projected weapons load out. Lets all wait for the naval review to come out which I suspect is going to recommend acquiring about 6 or so light frigates to supplement the existing and planned fleet. I'm no expert as most of you guys are but common sense says that's a viable option as long as the government gets recruitment and retention rates up. Otherwise it's all in fantasy land. Cheers,
Buzzard.
The important thing right now is to get the Hunter build underway, once that happens, we can build as many as we want, just because they say 6 in 2024 doesn't mean they can't change that number, as long each ship is ordered in a timely manner. The worst decision is they decide to only build 3.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Murdoch media, the Advertiser. (Hunter program speculation)




Followed by… 7 West Media, the West Australian.



@Reptilia

Every article is behind a paywall and there is no comentary on what was discussed so most folk would have an idea of what was discussed. This is essentially a one liner.

Lift your game please

Alexsa
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Murdoch media, the Advertiser. (Hunter program speculation)




Followed by… 7 West Media, the West Australian.


All behind pay walls.
Not sure how much money nor time is going to be saved by stopping Hunter construction at 3 and then start on an all new design being built by a different company. Let's not forget that the vast majority of the workers at Osborne will be working for BAE and their contractors. Stop production at 3 Hunters and BAEs reaction is not going to be much better than Naval Groups, can't see BAE facilitating an easy handover of facilities nor releasing staff.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
All behind pay walls.
Not sure how much money nor time is going to be saved by stopping Hunter construction at 3 and then start on an all new design being built by a different company. Let's not forget that the vast majority of the workers at Osborne will be working for BAE and their contractors. Stop production at 3 Hunters and BAEs reaction is not going to be much better than Naval Groups, can't see BAE facilitating an easy handover of facilities nor releasing staff.
Personally, I don’t take Murdoch press seriously. A reduction to 3 Hunters(or less than 6) is possible though but they would have to announce a follow on project like the Type 83 to replace the Hobarts to ensure continuous shipbuilding.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Personally, I don’t take Murdoch press seriously. A reduction to 3 Hunters(or less than 6) is possible though but they would have to announce a follow on project like the Type 83 to replace the Hobarts to ensure continuous shipbuilding.
I can't see Australia laying down the Hobart replacement in 2029-30, I think a batch 2 Hunter with an increase in VLS cells would be far more likely. Totally agree about Murdoch press, wouldn't believe them if the said the rain was wet.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
My sympathy to those affected by the possible Hunter decision. Having seen huge cuts in infrastructure projects in my own industry in the past year, I am not surprised. Having a still undeclared final cost for Hunter in excess of $45 billion was financial suicide in the current climate IMO. That is nothing against the quality of the ship, just an observation about the (lack of) communications by navy staff with government over cost.

I have a question though. What is Tier One now? Presumably a force of 8 or 9 Navantia corvettes or Babcock Arrowhead frigates will be the new force of "Tier Two" vessels as per the DSR and Adm Hammond's clarifications a few months ago about what was meant by "Tier Two". But my question is, what then will be Tier One? Will that leave only 3 Hobart AWDs and 3 Hunter ASWs to form "Tier One"? Is that enough?
 
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
I can't see Australia laying down the Hobart replacement in 2029-30, I think a batch 2 Hunter with an increase in VLS cells would be far more likely. Totally agree about Murdoch press, wouldn't believe them if the said the rain was wet.
Maybe, but they could also come to the realisation that trying to fit 96 cells onto a ASW focused Hunter Hull(now with no or little room for growth) might not be the best option and instead go with the larger Type 83. Eg 3, 4, 5 or 6 current spec ASW Hunters(no redesign) followed by AAW Type 83s. (This would allow both platforms to keep its mission bay/s).
Alternatively, if the Hunter from batch 2 was upgunned, Cons- it would not have the mission bay(another ship would require mission flexibility), it would not have much growth left for larger VLS cells(hypersonics) and possibly directed energy weapons. Pros- it would be an easy transition to build, it would have ‘85%’ commonality with batch 1, it would be cheaper, crew familiarity with the ships layout and systems.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Maybe, but they could also come to the realisation that trying to fit 96 cells onto a ASW focused Hunter Hull(now with no or little room for growth) might not be the best option and instead go with the larger Type 83. Eg 3, 4, 5 or 6 current spec ASW Hunters(no redesign) followed by AAW Type 83s. (This would allow both platforms to keep its mission bay/s).
Alternatively, if the Hunter from batch 2 was upgunned, Cons- it would not have the mission bay(another ship would require mission flexibility), it would not have much growth left for larger VLS cells(hypersonics) and possibly directed energy weapons. Pros- it would be an easy transition to build, it would have ‘85%’ commonality with batch 1, it would be cheaper, crew familiarity with the ships layout and systems.
It could all go many ways.

Let's wait for some clarity from the Naval Review.

Cheers S
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Maybe, but they could also come to the realisation that trying to fit 96 cells onto a ASW focused Hunter Hull(now with no or little room for growth) might not be the best option and instead go with the larger Type 83. Eg 3, 4, 5 or 6 current spec ASW Hunters(no redesign) followed by AAW Type 83s. (This would allow both platforms to keep its mission bay/s).
Alternatively, if the Hunter from batch 2 was upgunned, Cons- it would not have the mission bay(another ship would require mission flexibility), it would not have much growth left for larger VLS cells(hypersonics) and possibly directed energy weapons. Pros- it would be an easy transition to build, it would have ‘85%’ commonality with batch 1, it would be cheaper, crew familiarity with the ships layout and systems.
A couple of things that come out at Indo-Pacific 23, the Type 26 can be stretched by 10m and BAE is working on 3 different module designs to go where the Mission Bay currently is, with 16, 32 and 64 VLS cells as well as another 32 cells in place of the Mk 45 127mm. So they are working on designs with 32,48,64,96 or 128 VLS cells.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Perhaps after the first hulls are started and when results of the current Red Sea operation are analyzed by Western navies pollies might realize there is better value in high end ships like the T26, especially considering the potential enemy has vastly superior missiles and more of them along with a rapidly increasing submarine fleet.
Which enemy has “vastly superior” missiles? Superior to what and to whom? The missiles being fired by the Houthis in these engagements by and large have an absolutely lousy success rate being unable to reliably hit large, slow-moving, non-manoeuvring civilian ships when they know exactly where they are, while the US and European weapon so far seem to have a near perfect success rate…

The only criticism I have seen has been the silly “cost” comparison…
 

JBRobbo

Member

Obviously not yet confirmed, but so much for for those cuts to the Hunter class frigate program. According to the article, it is now slated to be a class of 16, with 8 of the standard 32-cell ASW variants I guess now becoming the 'Tier-2' combatant with an additional 8 of the recently unveiled 96-cell variants forming the 'Tier-1' element.
 

JBRobbo

Member

Obviously not yet confirmed, but so much for for those cuts to the Hunter class frigate program. According to the article, it is now slated to be a class of 16, with 8 of the standard 32-cell ASW variants I guess now becoming the 'Tier-2' combatant with an additional 8 of the recently unveiled 96-cell variants forming the 'Tier-1' element.
It's a smart move, mirrors the Canadians 'single surface combatant' program and exceeds it (by 1) in total numbers, with all the advantages that entails in logistics, training etc. I would imagine that the Hobart's will now be retired at the soonest possible convenience, perhaps once 'Tier-1' production is past 3 hulls. How they decide to do this (staggered 1 for 1, 8 tier-1 first/8 tier-2 last, additional production split between SA and WA) obviously remains to be seen, but overall a far better outcome i think than anybody was expecting.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have no idea which way the government is going.

That said, if value for money is the primary consideration, and the primary constraint is personnel, then the logical way forward is to ensure that if we can only crew eight to ten major combatants, they should be as individually capable as possible.

The issue I can see with the Arrowhead, even though it is a really good design, is at its most capable configuration, it is still less capable than the ASW configured Hunter, with no comparison possible to the FFG variant of the Type 26.

Maybe, what the government is entertaining is three Hobart's, plus three hunters, plus eight to ten tier 2s. If this is the case I hope they reconsider in the light of current operations in the middle east.
 

JBRobbo

Member
I have no idea which way the government is going.

That said, if value for money is the primary consideration, and the primary constraint is personnel, then the logical way forward is to ensure that if we can only crew eight to ten major combatants, they should be as individually capable as possible.

The issue I can see with the Arrowhead, even though it is a really good design, is at its most capable configuration, it is still less capable than the ASW configured Hunter, with no comparison possible to the FFG variant of the Type 26.

Maybe, what the government is entertaining is three Hobart's, plus three hunters, plus eight to ten tier 2s. If this is the case I hope they reconsider in the light of current operations in the middle east.
Did you miss the recent article?
 
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