Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Todjaeger]

Yep. If rumours of an AW159 lease are correct, that would give time for a better analysis of the best platform to fill the capability. Personally, I think that the MH-60R is the best option, unfortunately I don't have a say in the decision.

Obvious potential problems with any interim naval helicopter (leased or purchased) is that any 'interim' solution could easily become a permanent replacement without regard to whether it is really a suitable choice or not. One thing which comes to mind if there are to be Wildcats used by NZ is what LWT might be fitted? AFAIK the AW159 has two LWT's currently integrated, the British Sting Ray and the ROK Blue Shark, whilst NZ has Mk 46 and I believe MU90's in service.

If the AW159 Wildcat does enter NZ service, even just on an interim basis, one of a few things would happen. Either NZ loses an ASW capability from helicopters, brings another LWT type into service, or someone pays to have another (as in, already in-Kiwi-service) LWT integrated with the Wildcat.

Honestly none of these options are particularly appealing.

 

[Rob c]

Yep. If rumours of an AW159 lease are correct, that would give time for a better analysis of the best platform to fill the capability. Personally, I think that the MH-60R is the best option, unfortunately I don't have a say in the decision.

The problem would be treasury, as once the lease was in place they would see "no capital expenditure and no capital charge" they would love that and would appose buying of anything to replace the leased choppers.

 

[At lakes]

The problem would be treasury, as once the lease was in place they would see "no capital expenditure and no capital charge" they would love that and would appose buying of anything to replace the leased choppers.

US Army to trim Black Hawk helicopter fleet

Whilst the leasing option appears to be the most logical short of buying new ones, but considering that the bean counters in Wellington could at best be described as tight as a fishs arse, that is most likely is never going to happen any time soon. Another option is the Steptoe and Son approach which is buying 2nd hand worn out aircraft cheaply.

The US Army is disposing of 140+ UH60A models and UH60L models going for about 2million each through foreign Military Sales. They are most likely worn out and spare parts may be very hard to source for these two variants. But that has never stopped the bean counters in Wellington before i.e. the SH2G.

Treasury would tell you to give them a service paint them grey and paint that words Navy on the side and that will be your new part worn sometimes serviceable Navy Helicopter. Oh and these aircraft would be most likely unarmed so not ASW capability.

For those members younger that 50 and not aware of Steptoe and Son its an English TV series from the 60's of a father a son combination dealers in useless junk.

 

[JohnJT]

...whilst NZ has Mk 46 and I believe MU90's in service.

No, just Mk 46 and Mk 54.
Here are all the guided weapons delivered to NZ since 1969 (via the sipri database):

Transfers of major weapons: Deals with deliveries or orders made for 1969 to 2022

Note: The ‘No. delivered’ and the ‘Year(s) of deliveries’ columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. The ‘Comments’ column includes publicly reported information on the value of the deal. Information on the sources and methods used in the collection of the data, and explanations of the conventions, abbreviations and acronyms, can be found at URL <http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/sources-and-methods>.

Source: SIPRI Arms Transfers Database

Information generated: 01 December 2023

Year(s)
Supplier/ No. Weapon Weapon Year of No.
recipient (R) ordered designation description of order delivery delivered Comments



Australia

R: New Zealand (20) Penguin-2 anti-ship missile 2013 2014-2015 (20) Second-hand; Penguin-2 Mod-7 version for SH-2G helicopters; sold via Norwegian producer


France

R: New Zealand (27) Mistral portable SAM 1996 1997-1998 27 Part of NZD23 m ($16 m) deal (incl 12 launchers)

(10) Mistral portable SAM 1998 1999 10


Jordan

R: New Zealand (100) AGM-65 Maverick ASM (1986) 1986 (100) Second-hand; AGM-65B version for A-4K combat aircraft


United Kingdom

R: New Zealand (15) Seacat SAM 1968 1972 (15) For Leander (Canterbury) frigate

(20) Seacat SAM (1981) 1982 (20) Probably second-hand: for Leander frigate

(20) Seacat SAM 1983 1983 (20) Probably second-hand; for 1 Leander frigate

(24) Seacat SAM 1985 1986 (24) Probably second-hand; for Leander frigates

(60) CAMM SAM 2014 2020-2022 (60) For modernized MEKO-200 (Anzac) frigates


United States

R: New Zealand (100) AIM-9D Sidewinder SRAAM 1968 1970 (100) AIM-9H version; for A-4K combat aircraft

(100) Mk-46 ASW torpedo (1970) 1972-1975 (100)

(51) AIM-9J/P Sidewinder SRAAM 1988 1989 51 AIM-9P version; for modernized A-4K combat aircraft

(60) AGM-65 Maverick ASM 1990 1992 (60) For modernized A-4K combat aircraft; AGM-65G version

(25) AIM-7P Sparrow BVRAAM (1991) 1997-1999 (25) For MEKO-200ANZ (Te Kaha) frigates; RIM-7P Sea Sparrow (SAM) version

(164) FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile 2003 2006-2008 (164) NZD22-27 m 'Project Crossbow' (incl 24 launchers)

(10) FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile 2014 2014 (10) Javelin Block-1 version

Mk-54 MAKO ASW torpedo 2020 2022 (10)

 

[chis73]

Obvious potential problems with any interim naval helicopter (leased or purchased) is that any 'interim' solution could easily become a permanent replacement without regard to whether it is really a suitable choice or not. One thing which comes to mind if there are to be Wildcats used by NZ is what LWT might be fitted? AFAIK the AW159 has two LWT's currently integrated, the British Sting Ray and the ROK Blue Shark, whilst NZ has Mk 46 and I believe MU90's in service.

If the AW159 Wildcat does enter NZ service, even just on an interim basis, one of a few things would happen. Either NZ loses an ASW capability from helicopters, brings another LWT type into service, or someone pays to have another (as in, already in-Kiwi-service) LWT integrated with the Wildcat.

Honestly none of these options are particularly appealing.

I did read recently (here) that the UK intends to integrate the Sting Ray torpedo with their P-8 fleet (alongside continued use of the Mk 54). If we followed suit with our P-8 aircraft, that could be a possible way forward to the use of the Wildcat helicopter with the RNZN. The Sting Ray is also an electric torpedo, so could avoid continued use of nasty Otto fuel (toxic). No mention of whether the Sting Ray will support the high-altitude wing kit the US intend to use, but I'm unsure if the US even have that in service yet (pretty sure no one else does though). No mention of timeframe either, and it may yet never work (see for example the Australian attempt to integrate the MU90 torpedo on their P-3s).

 

[Todjaeger]

I did read recently (here) that the UK intends to integrate the Sting Ray torpedo with their P-8 fleet (alongside continued use of the Mk 54). If we followed suit with our P-8 aircraft, that could be a possible way forward to the use of the Wildcat helicopter with the RNZN. The Sting Ray is also an electric torpedo, so could avoid continued use of nasty Otto fuel (toxic). No mention of whether the Sting Ray will support the high-altitude wing kit the US intend to use, but I'm unsure if the US even have that in service yet (pretty sure no one else does though). No mention of timeframe either, and it may yet never work (see for example the Australian attempt to integrate the MU90 torpedo on their P-3s).

For me the question really revolves around how much is NZ willing to spend on ordnance and the ability to have ordnance which can be fired from kit that is in service or planned to enter service.

Perhaps this is a pessimistic outlook to have, but I have (repeatedly) been left with the impression that those who sign the cheques are not particularly interested in spending money on Defence, and even less so in purchasing things which go 'bang.' This makes me wonder whether or not gov't would be willing to have a new type of LWT be brought into service, on top of or perhaps in place of the existing and already in service LWT's.

Given how NZ was at times without LWT's that had not reached their planned service lives (they have seen been examined and either life-extended or remanufactured), putting up the coin to establish even a small warstock of yet another type of torpedoe does not sound like something which gov't would approve or fund.

 

[ngatimozart]

I did read recently (here) that the UK intends to integrate the Sting Ray torpedo with their P-8 fleet (alongside continued use of the Mk 54). If we followed suit with our P-8 aircraft, that could be a possible way forward to the use of the Wildcat helicopter with the RNZN. The Sting Ray is also an electric torpedo, so could avoid continued use of nasty Otto fuel (toxic). No mention of whether the Sting Ray will support the high-altitude wing kit the US intend to use, but I'm unsure if the US even have that in service yet (pretty sure no one else does though). No mention of timeframe either, and it may yet never work (see for example the Australian attempt to integrate the MU90 torpedo on their P-3s).

TBH I can't see NZ doing an Australia and going with two separate LWT types, because of costs; it's two separate logistics and support lines. AFAIK the NZ Mk-46 LWT have either reached or are reaching their use by dates and Treasury may be against trying to rebuild them again because there would be no VfM, and I can't see an investment argument that would make sense of be logical, considering that the Mk-46 is an obsolete system.

 

[At lakes]

Royal New Zealand Air Force’s First Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules Emerges from Paint Shop - MilitaryLeak.COM

The project to replace the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s Hercules fleet has marked a significant milestone, with the first C-130J Super Hercules aircraft

militaryleak.com

This article is dated 25th so I am not sure if its been posted before.

This almost finished paint job of the first RNZAF C130j after it has emerged from the paint shop at Lockheed. The national insignia will be applied in the new year. Looks very smart

 

[Teal]

Good evening All , if your in the mid Nth Is , something to bring a smile

Air Force to fly above Waikato and Bay of Plenty this weekend

T-6C Texan II aircraft will be seen above Matamata, Mt Maunganui, Tauranga and Taupo.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[recce.k1]

Poseidon NZ4803 and its crew have been busy this week familiarising themselves with the eastern Pacific patrol area, deploying directly to Papeete in French Polynesia.


RNZAF Poseidon passes the British Overseas Territory of Pitcairn island.
Source:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1750351446422474823

HMS Tamar was also patrolling the Pitcairn Marine Protected Area recently.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1749159244358906308

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1747853834972705193

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

RNZAF C-130J-30 Hercules gets official livery | WATCH The first of our C-130J-30 Hercules to come off the Lockheed Martin production line in Georgia, United States has received its official livery -... | By Royal New Zealand Air Force | Facebook

WATCH The first of our C-130J-30 Hercules to come off the Lockheed Martin production line in Georgia, United States has received its official livery -...

www.facebook.com

Kiwi roundel complete The first of our Royal New Zealand Air Force C-130J-30 Hercules to come off the Lockheed Martin production line in Georgia, United States has received its official livery - featuring the RNZAF Kiwi Roundel and No. 40 Squadron’s mariner's compass.

Five new aircraft are on track for delivery starting from late this year to replace the C-130H (NZ) Hercules aircraft, which were purchased in 1965.

The new aircraft can carry a greater number of pallets, due to their additional 4.5 metre length and payload capacity of 21 tonnes.

The second Hercules in the fleet is not far behind, ready for its full-body paint job.

Read more about the project and watch the video Introducing the C-130J

Photo's from the post on FakeBook (the linky link thing no worky work)

51118[/ATTACH]

Facebook

 

[Gibbo]

Photo's from the post on FakeBook (the linky link thing no worky work)

Looking great fully pimped with markings, underwing tanks & MX20 fitted!

 

[Challenger]

Couple of articles have recently come out about customers wanting the C-17 line re-opened.

If there’s any merit to the reports and a possibility, does that change the calculus on the 757 replacement ?

 

[At lakes]

Couple of articles have recently come out about customers wanting the C-17 line re-opened.

If there’s any merit to the reports and a possibility, does that change the calculus on the 757 replacement ?

Boeing discloses customer interest in restarting C-17 production

Almost half a decade after it delivered its last new-build C-17, Boeing still receives enquiries about potentially reviving production of the strategic transport, a senior company official says.

www.flightglobal.com

The attached link explains its possible but very unlikely due to the high cost. The line was only closed down due to the orders drying up.
s

 

[Redlands18]

Couple of articles have recently come out about customers wanting the C-17 line re-opened.

If there’s any merit to the reports and a possibility, does that change the calculus on the 757 replacement ?

Without a major order for several dozen for the USAF, there is no chance.

 

[John Fedup]

Not sure I would trust Boeing to build them properly given their recent performance. A moot point as I agree the line won’t reopen. Given the tough negotiations the USAF is having wrt E7, a new C-17 price would be ugly. Boeing has realized fixed price contracts are bad news.

 

[Gibbo]

Couple of articles have recently come out about customers wanting the C-17 line re-opened.

If there’s any merit to the reports and a possibility, does that change the calculus on the 757 replacement ?

Even when there was supposedly cross-party support for buying 2 of the last airframes the GOTD didn't budge so realistcally why would the Govt now (made up of many the same people) be interested when they are rampaging around with a slasher looking at Govt budget cuts ...regardless of the rhetoric being spun the Aussie's way. As others have stated Boeing is unlikely to re-open the line unless they have firm orders for dozens from the USAF.

 

[ngatimozart]

Even when there was supposedly cross-party support for buying 2 of the last airframes the GOTD didn't budge so realistcally why would the Govt now (made up of many the same people) be interested when they are rampaging around with a slasher looking at Govt budget cuts ...regardless of the rhetoric being spun the Aussie's way.

You are wrong about the same people involved now as were in 2015. Back then John Ke was PM and he nixed the deal because he didn't want to spend any of his political capital on it. Key had a pronounced habit of that. I am given to understand that the other member of Cabinet who really opposed the acquisition was Stephen Joyce who wanted to get govt spending below 20% GDP. Gerry Brownlee was the Minister od=f Defence and he pushed hard for it, putting his not inconsiderable weight behind the acquisition. Joyce was also the party theoretician, and he would have been more at home in ACT than in National.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Tis an interesting deployment...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1762651197994066305

 

[ngatimozart]

The RNZAF C-130H(NZ) disposal Request For Proposals (RFP) has been released. The RFP opened on Friday, 1 March 2024 3:00 PM (Pacific/Auckland UTC+13:00) and closes on Friday, 31 May 2024 12:00 PM (Pacific/Auckland UTC+12:00). It states that the New Zealand Defence Force seeks proposals from parties interested in the purchase of four (4) retired C-130H(NZ) aircraft and associated items (or part thereof). The following details are copied in full from the Technical Description sheet of the RFP.
NZ7001 is the aircraft being retained for display; 03 has been broken up for spares, and 04 was retired in December of 2023.

"C-130H (NZ) Technical Description​

The C-130H has been in service with the RNZAF since 1965 and is due to be retired and replaced by five C-130J aircraft by early 2025.​

One aircraft (NZ7001) has been allocated to the Air Force for display whilst four remaining aircraft NZ7002, NZ7003, NZ7004 and NZ7005 are offered for sale along with a limited number of C-130H spares, a Part Task Trainer, T56-15 Engine stands and related publications and technical data (Please note that the NZDF utilises SAP Plant Maintenance and digital authorities as its airworthiness system and so maintain very limited hard copy records).​

NZ7003 has been used a spares source since early 2023 so is incomplete without engines. NZ7004 was retired in December 2023 and remains basically complete - but noting the NZDF continues to operate the C-130H fleet so spares location and serviceability will vary.​

With effect 01 Mar 24 NZ7001, NZ7002, NZ7005 remain in service.​

A Life Extension Programme on the fleet completed in 2017 was extremely comprehensive, both to the airframe and the avionics. The airframe was significantly refurbished, including replacing the centre wing section and adding a Fatigue Analysis Monitoring System (FAMS). 98% of the wiring has been replaced and with over 85km worth of wiring added. The most dramatic feature of the upgrade was a new Glass Cockpit with moving map display, and modern Avionics Management System. The avionics additions are extensive, and include an Upgraded Radar Altimeter, new Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS II), and Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (EGPWS) for terrain avoidance. The aircraft’s navigation capabilities have been enhanced with the addition of a Twin Honeywell Embedded Global Positioning System and Inertial Navigation System, which gives the aircrew Required Navigation Performance (RNP) 0.3 approach capability.​

Other new aircraft systems included addition of a Caution Advisory Warning system (CAWS), a Digital Engine Instrument Display System, Digital Fuel Quantity Indicating System, a Flight Data Recorder, a new Internal Communications System, upgraded Air Conditioning and Pressurisation system with a rapid cooling capability, and of course, an upgraded electrical system to cope with the new avionics.​

Please note the APN-241 Radar has been removed for use on the new C-130J fleet and a number of military systems such as the Missile Warning System and secure communications are also not part of the offering.​

Avionics Management System Software Assurance Status​

The C-130H (NZ) Avionics Management System (AMS) provides primary flight information and contains the computational software for flight management functions. An NZDF Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) was issued by the NZDF Airworthiness Authority with the knowledge, understanding and acceptance that the AMS does not meet an applicable airworthiness software design standard.​

The NZDF has operational procedures, training, publications, limitations and an airworthiness system, in place, to mitigate the risk of operating uncertified software to a level that is considered acceptable, by NZDF, for the remaining time the aircraft is expected to be in service. If the aircraft were sold and operated the software would not be supported by the NZDF.​

Bespoke and Unsupported Publications​

The NZDF made a decision, several decades ago, to create bespoke C-130H (NZ) flight and aircraft level maintenance publications and its own maintenance program. Whilst both the maintenance program and publications are based on USAF and Lockheed Martin publications, the data inside the publications are no longer linked to their aircraft-level publication suite. Further deviation has occurred through the embodiment of the AMS and the LEP structural changes; alignment with OEM data is only maintained at the component level. Consequently, the configuration of the RNZAF publications suite and aircraft, at an aircraft level, is now unique to the NZDF and heavily reliant on NZDF corporate knowledge. If the aircraft were sold and operated those publications would not be supported by the NZDF."​

It has been suggested elsewhere that we donate these aircraft to Ukraine but given the technical data above I don't think that it would be a wise move because of all the bespoke stuff on the aircraft.