NZDF General discussion thread

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
NZDF has "lost more than 36 percent of its full time uniformed personnel since April 2021."


This is very concerning with the RNZN being described as hollow. This doesn't surprise me because personnel have been voting with their feet because of pay, conditions, and the Covid-19 deployment. Morale is low and the senior leadership being positioned being between a rock and a hard place by the pollies. It is time that both pollies and senior defence leadership realise that they have to look after their people much better than they are currently doing. Historically pollies and senior defence leadership have been quite poor a looking after our defence people. I realise that the ADF, and the other FVEY have recruitment and retention problems, but I think that NZDF is currently the worse off. In fact, NZDF pay and conditions are the poorest of all the FVEY militaries. Another problem is that two of the C-130H Hercules have been retired, leaving us only three. This is because of pollies continued practice of delaying acquisitions. I don't know how the RAN is going to help the TNZN with crewing because the RAN has its own, not insignificant, crew retention problems.
Another concern reported recently is that housing rentals for personnel are increasing significantly, as much as 40% in some cases (presumably these rental increases were locked in a while ago under the previous administration as it was a announced a few weeks ago) as well as new reports on substandard accommodation last week (Newshub). Where Govts can help with personnel retention would be to (obviously) build more replacement housing, previous govt documents released seem to suggest the replacement rates are not high enough (as we discussed here during the May Budget release - they are ridiculously low despite the fanfare. And some seem to be tied to joint Govt/Iwi tribe initiatives - which sounds great in theory but perhaps in practice Defence shouldn't be used as a prototype due to the time it is taking? Maybe give the task to Housing NZ/Kāinga Ora instead)? Another aspect to consider is reducing rental charges, which goes against Govt/Treasury market-led thinking, but clearly the present course is failing big time.

Some of the author's conclusions seem to be a bit hyped up. According to the OIA documents which formed the basis of his article, in May Defence have noticed some improvements:

1. Note that while the situation with the NZDF workforce remains uncertain, early indications are that the retention payments, budgeted remuneration uplift, and other initiatives, have had a positive effect on retention .
2. Note NZDF force re-generation continues at pace, though it will take a reduction in attrition levels, sustained investment, and improvement in the NZDF' s workforce situation to assure full capability recovery.
Also HMNZS Canterbury "generates to be the primary response for the High Risk Weather Season by 1 March 2024" according to the September briefing. So I'm unclear why the author is suggesting it won't be until 2027 before Canterbury is back in service. Perhaps I missed something so happy to be corrected.

 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
o I'm unclear why the author is suggesting it won't be until 2027 before Canterbury is back in service. Perhaps I missed something so happy to be corrected.
Para 5/ page 10 under the Navy said that Canterbury will be duty vessel from 1 march 2024 for the remainder of the season
 

Alberto32

Member
Another concern reported recently is that housing rentals for personnel are increasing significantly, as much as 40% in some cases (presumably these rental increases were locked in a while ago under the previous administration as it was a announced a few weeks ago) as well as new reports on substandard accommodation last week (Newshub). Where Govts can help with personnel retention would be to (obviously) build more replacement housing, previous govt documents released seem to suggest the replacement rates are not high enough (as we discussed here during the May Budget release - they are ridiculously low despite the fanfare. And some seem to be tied to joint Govt/Iwi tribe initiatives - which sounds great in theory but perhaps in practice Defence shouldn't be used as a prototype due to the time it is taking? Maybe give the task to Housing NZ/Kāinga Ora instead)? Another aspect to consider is reducing rental charges, which goes against Govt/Treasury market-led thinking, but clearly the present course is failing big time.

Some of the author's conclusions seem to be a bit hyped up. According to the OIA documents which formed the basis of his article, in May Defence have noticed some improvements:



Also HMNZS Canterbury "generates to be the primary response for the High Risk Weather Season by 1 March 2024" according to the September briefing. So I'm unclear why the author is suggesting it won't be until 2027 before Canterbury is back in service. Perhaps I missed something so happy to be corrected.

I would like to see the NZDF look at what Australia does with it's personnel, in regards to housing. This way, both the public and NZDF personnel get something out of this scheme. Defence Housing Australia | Homepage
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I would like to see the NZDF look at what Australia does with it's personnel, in regards to housing. This way, both the public and NZDF personnel get something out of this scheme. Defence Housing Australia | Homepage
So a professional outfit specialising in housing for personnel. If it works then NZG/Defence should investigate further.

I saw a reddit thread on defence housing over the weekend. Some claimed to be ex-defence staff and were very, very critical of the current setup (with accusations of nepotism and unprofessional practices by one or two people in positions of power allegedly ... I won't post a link as unsure of the veracity of the posts and claims but no doubt it can be found via searching if wanting to read it).
 

Alberto32

Member
So a professional outfit specialising in housing for personnel. If it works then NZG/Defence should investigate further.

I saw a reddit thread on defence housing over the weekend. Some claimed to be ex-defence staff and were very, very critical of the current setup (with accusations of nepotism and unprofessional practices by one or two people in positions of power allegedly ... I won't post a link as unsure of the veracity of the posts and claims but no doubt it can be found via searching if wanting to read it).
Yep, this outfit has been around since 1987 according to this link. Defence Housing Australia Act 1987., it seems that our own government, and NZDF must have been aware of this organisation but felt that it wasn't suitable for NZ. Like many other ideas, it seems those at the top seem to reject common sense.

No surprises on nepotism and abuse of power by people in positions of power.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
NZDF has "lost more than 36 percent of its full time uniformed personnel since April 2021."


This is very concerning with the RNZN being described as hollow. This doesn't surprise me because personnel have been voting with their feet because of pay, conditions, and the Covid-19 deployment. Morale is low and the senior leadership being positioned being between a rock and a hard place by the pollies. It is time that both pollies and senior defence leadership realise that they have to look after their people much better than they are currently doing. Historically pollies and senior defence leadership have been quite poor a looking after our defence people. I realise that the ADF, and the other FVEY have recruitment and retention problems, but I think that NZDF is currently the worse off. In fact, NZDF pay and conditions are the poorest of all the FVEY militaries. Another problem is that two of the C-130H Hercules have been retired, leaving us only three. This is because of pollies continued practice of delaying acquisitions. I don't know how the RAN is going to help the TNZN with crewing because the RAN has its own, not insignificant, crew retention problems.
If you combine the above report with this (link below) you can sort of see where things are headed ...complete existing projects then fall back on the "no new projects cos the NZDF are unable to resource new systems at the present time" and no real substance to Collins' hollow "got their backs" comment. Time to shelve your wishlists people! In all honestly the NZDF is indeed fragile & until retention improves there is serious doubt the NZDF could introduce new platforms without buring out the very people they need to operate & maintain them. MSN
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sounds just like what we have in Healthcare. The workers are treated the same way.
In Canada, immigration further complicates our housing and health care capacity. New homes added to the market as well has new health care workers aren't matching the population increase by a wide margin. There is also the affordability issue wrt housing.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
More info on the Network Enabled Army programmes new micro UAS systems for RNZIR.

Skydio X2D UAS
 

JohnJT

Active Member
More info on the Network Enabled Army programmes new micro UAS systems for RNZIR.

Skydio X2D UAS
Leaning heavily into unmanned systems is one way of helping mitigate the current manning problems.
Next they need...


And maybe even...


 
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Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Poor housing, low pay, obsolete kit, and uncaring pollies, common problems amongst several FVEY members for sure.
No NZ government in the last almost 35 years from either side of the political spectrum has been a friend of Defence. The current one has no plans to improve the situation, because they wont have the money due to tax cuts in a economy, which has one of the lower tax takes in the OECD. However I do expect that terms and conditions will be improved as they have reached rock bottom. Any thoughts on actually giving us a defence force that can actually defend anything will not happen.
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
From the leaders meeting yesterday. It looks like security is becoming a more prominent subject for our new government from the recent meeting.

My understanding:
- NZ is alignment more closely to Aus for its Pacific view
- NZ is very interested in AUKUS and becoming a member
- More Minister to Minster meetings to ensure alignment

All in all it looks like we want to more actively support our Ally and do our far share. Now the reason question is how will this play out.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From the leaders meeting yesterday. It looks like security is becoming a more prominent subject for our new government from the recent meeting.

My understanding:
- NZ is alignment more closely to Aus for its Pacific view
- NZ is very interested in AUKUS and becoming a member
- More Minister to Minster meetings to ensure alignment

All in all it looks like we want to more actively support our Ally and do our far share. Now the reason question is how will this play out.
This is Luxon (NZ PM) talking to Kiwi media after the presser.

He speaks a lot in both this video and at the presser about security and the Indo Pacific. It is interesting that security comes through as being more important than trade, which will upset the MFAT policy wonks :D. He mentions NZDF interoperability with the ADF and that we can be a force multiplier. This security talk by him is stronger than any NZ govt since the first cold war ended. The talk of NZ & Australia growing closer, what does this mean? In what way will the two nations grow closer? WRT to Luxon's remark about being a force multiplier, what capabilities does he have in mind for this role? What about his interoperability remark? Does that include commonality?

Another interesting point is how well he and the Aussie PM get on; how comfortable they are with each other. I have observed since 2009 that NZ National Party PMs tend to have better personal relationships with ALP PMs than they do with Coalition PMs. I think that previous PM Hipkins had a better personal relationship with his Aussie counterpart than any previous NZ Labour Party PM, since Kirk (1972 - 74). Clark and to a lesser degree, Ardern were anti Australian (and anti American). Hipkins is more pragmatic and less of a left wing political theorist, whereas Clark, Ardern and Palmer were very much left wing political theorists. Meanwhile Key was much a neoliberalist, an incrementalist and a political opportunist. Unfortunately for NZ, Treasury and the political elite are still enamoured by neoliberalism and incrementalism, clinging to them like a shipwrecked sailor to floating debris.

Of course the most important thing is that WRT to NZ pollies and defence, only when the front the money and resources can we accept that they are willing to walk the walk besides talking the talk. Talk is cheap.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Unfortunately for NZ, Treasury and the political elite are still enamoured by neoliberalism and incrementalism, clinging to them like a shipwrecked sailor to floating debris.
I would add to this is that in 1974 we had the 4th highest GDP per person in the world, 50 years later we are 24th and going down. The vast majority of this slide is during the neoliberalist period.
 

Hone C

Active Member
I would add to this is that in 1974 we had the 4th highest GDP per person in the world, 50 years later we are 24th and going down. The vast majority of this slide is during the neoliberalist period.
To be fair, Imperial Preference with regards wool, lamb and butter exports played a large part in NZ's economic development up until the UK's entry to what is now the EU. That world ended in 1973.

Regardless of our terms of trade, the vast majority of our imports and exports cross SLOC's over which NZ currently can exert no control with two aging frigates and a defanged air force. It makes perfect sense to cooperate with our traditional partners to keep these secure, and its good to see the PM articulate this.

Of course, as Ngati says, until the government and Treasury front up with the coin to rebuild the NZDF, its all just hot air.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
I would add to this is that in 1974 we had the 4th highest GDP per person in the world, 50 years later we are 24th and going down. The vast majority of this slide is during the neoliberalist period.
I recall reading of a New Zealand government minister boasting, some time before that, that New Zealand was "the most efficient farm in the world". That may well have been true, but nobody, anywhere, has kept up with the leading countries in production per head through farming. Unless they're blessed with immensely valuable mineral resources, they've needed other sectors to flourish, & produce more per worker than farming can. I fear that NZ bet its economic future on everything staying the same.

I think about 1950 NZ may have been second richest per head.
 
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