Middle East Defence & Security

[Ananda]

Well NYT now not credible? Everyone has bias, that's especially shown in Ukraine War, why do you think it is also not happen in this Gaza War? Still against Pro Israel media, will see whose going to shown real situation. At least they (NYT) are less bias against Israel then Pro Palestinian media.

Like the war in Ukraine, Pro Ukrainian vs Pro Russian sources, has create media that are more or less relatively in middle. Similar situation between Pro Israel vs Pro Palestinian media, also will going to create media that relatively in middle.

So let's see if those settlers use their firearms in 'regulated' way, or that's view is also an exaggeration.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Well NYT now not credible? Everyone has bias, that's especially shown in Ukraine War, why do you think it is also not happen in this Gaza War? Still against Pro Israel media, will see whose going to shown real situation. At least they (NYT) are less bias against Israel then Pro Palestinian media.

Like the war in Ukraine, Pro Ukrainian vs Pro Russian sources, has create media that are more or less relatively in middle. Similar situation between Pro Israel vs Pro Palestinian media, also will going to create media that relatively in middle.

So let's see if those settlers use their firearms in 'regulated' way, or that's view is also an exaggeration.

I think it's fairly clear that by now pretty much the entire MSM are not independent sources and utilize each other to generate news. That is why despite my clear bias in favor of Ukraine, I never once opened a Ukrainian news site or read their official statements. I also don't read Israeli news. I only link them here to provide some extra reading material because a credible source reinforces a claim.
Instead I only follow OSINT accounts and journalists that are quoted themselves.

Over the years I have concluded, with plentiful evidence, that the UN, the "Gaza Health Ministry" and various other often-quoted sources, have no semblance of credibility. So it really could be the most credible news site, but if it quotes an unreliable source, then the article is only going to be as reliable as the base source.

The reason why MSM are "mainstream" is because they have resources and people credit them with credibility. They are already established, and that is probably the main contributor to their perceived credibility, rather than the actual quality of their reporting. Due to Hamas's extortion of foreign journalists to only post material that is favorable to them, by definition it is going to be heavily biased, often entirely unreliable information. Hamas and other organizations are active not only in Gaza but also in the J&S region.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

My point was in direct reference to Israel's approach to Gaza. If they wanted Gaza to be seen as sovereign, they would recognize it as such. Currently no country, not even the PNA or Hamas, recognize Gaza as sovereign.

Recognition is not a condition for sovereignty nor independence. See: Israel, one of the least recognized nations on earth.

They do not control their borders or their coastline. The Israeli military operates in Gaza with impunity; Israel does not engage in diplomacy with them.

Should any of these change?

This idea that Gaza is sovereign or independent is not one that anyone outside of a few people online are buying, so I'm not sure why you think it is a legitimate position.

Because I do not condition my beliefs and logic on the popularity of my opinions.
I don't believe in technicalities, but perhaps the occasion necessitates at least some:
sovereignty, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order.

Gaza is an independent territory with a government, previously the PA and now Hamas. For all intents and purposes, Hamas is the supreme authority in Gaza. Its internal affairs, foreign affairs, education, health, infrastructure, security - all Hamas. While it does receive significant aid from abroad, as many nations also do, Hamas has the first and final word in anything that transpires in Gaza.

1. 2 of the 3 quotes attributed to the members of the UN IICIOPT to tar them as anti-semitic are far from anti-semitic, and it is absolutely true that the international Israel lobby throws around accusations of anti-semitism whenever anti-Zionist or anti-Israel commentary is heard. Here is a fantastic interview with the head of the ADL in which the problems with that methodology should be obvious.

I disagree with the notion that allegations of an organized Jewish conspiracy are not driven by Jew hatred, but that still leaves us with the problem that all 3 are not impartial. They all came with a strong preconceived bias against Israel.

2. The UN IICIOPT is far from the only international body that considers Palestine to be occupied territory. It is also recognized as such by the UN OCHA, UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk and most importantly, by the UN General Assembly and Security Council, according to this statement issued by the Spokesperson for the UN Secretary General in 2012.

I will ignore your reference to the antisemite Richard Falk and the OCHA and UNGA which have no authority on the subject, and refer only to the UNSC. The UNSC's resolutions are not always binding. There are certain chapters in which the UNSC debates and issues non-binding resolutions. I am not aware of any binding UNSC resolution that determined that Gaza's IDF withdrawal has been reversed and that occupation has been restored.
There is also no link in the archived article to said resolution. I have also been unable to find it.

There really is no international body that I have seen that is not explicitly pro-Israel that takes a different view. So if you want to talk about international law, Gaza's status is quite clear. Even the US State Department refers to Gaza as part of the "Occupied Territories"

That's nice and all but it's still just op-ed by different bodies that each lack the authority. Until there is a clear ruling on the subject, by a body that holds the authority, the case is closed.
I suggest that you find a clause in the Hague and Geneva Conventions or any international court's ruling to support your case.

3. The decision of an Israeli court has no bearing on international law and its bias here should be quite clear. The idea that anyone outside Israel should accept what Israeli law says about any part of Palestine as binding is laughable.

If that is the case then neither does any court have such authority, especially the morally depraved and devoid of authority UN.
I'm really not sure this is a viable strategy for you because the only actual ruling that applies the "occupied" status to the J&S region - is the Israeli HCJ. Despite international laws and conventions clearly stating that J&S is not an occupied territory, Israel's HCJ applied that term for the sole purpose of expanding and legitimizing the provision of aid to the Palestinians livng there. So if we say that Israel's HCJ lacks authority, which is by the way in complete contrast to the ICC's position, then not only Gaza but also J&S loses its "occupied" status.

I'm not clear on why you think any part of these examples are applicable to the situation in Gaza. None of these countries forcibly blockade every part of the border (including the coastline) of these other states.

Define "forcibly blockade". Because from what I can tell, none of these countries will allow a person of the other country enter without a permit, or the transfer of goods without registration and inspection.
Also please define "every part of the border". I need you to be very clear with me on this one - do you think Israel controls EVERY part of Gaza's borders?

If it were a real border, Israel would not be able to violate it with impunity without becoming an international pariah.

So the Russia-Ukraine border also isn't a real border? The US-Mexico border also isn't real? I didn't know that the violation of one's borders somehow nullifies their existence.

Again, this idea that Gaza is something akin to a state is so far from reality that I have no idea how you think anyone else will buy it. Gaza is a prison camp.

Your infantilization of Palestinians and assertion that they can not run their own state is dehumanizing. Your assertion that all people of Gaza are imprisoned by Hamas is debatable at best. Are you saying that they are unable to rise against Hamas? If so, that is infantilization. Are you saying they are un-willing to rise against them? If so, you make them complacent. In the end, they created Hamas and chose it to lead them. If any people believe they are oppressed by their own government, they have the responsibility to rise against them and form a legitimate government. The Iranians are doing so bravely right now, unfortunately many are imprisoned or killed in the process. But ultimately none will fight their fight for them, and no people should depend on others for liberation.

Is this a joke? Gaza's civilians are currently in dire need of food and medical supplies.

That is unfortunate. I am sure Hamas is doing their best to provide them with all their necessities.

Israel will not provide these, and will not allow international organizations to do so either.

It actually does.

Over 100 aid trucks enter Gaza in a day for 1st time since start of Israel-Hamas war

Palestinian Red Crescent says 374 trucks of food, water and medicine or medical supplies have entered via Rafah since October 21, but fighting still making deliveries difficult

www.timesofisrael.com

It's also quite telling that you'd blame Israel for this. I have a few questions for you:
1. Why would Gaza need significant humanitarian aid all of a sudden? What exactly happened since early October that brought this sudden turn of events? Previously Gaza was perfectly fine.
2. If Gaza needs aid, why did Hamas destroy all crossings between Israel and Gaza as well as the aid terminal?

This is a clear violation of the above. I'd love to know what "caveats" you think apply to these other than "to the fullest extent of the means available". Israel clearly has the means to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

1. Israel did not have the means to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. First, it'd need drivers and staff to do that, which it didn't because the entire area became a war zone. You can't drive civilians into an active combat zone in which Hamas shoots at anything that moves.
Second, the infrastructure for supplying said aid did not exist. It was all destroyed.
Third, to enable transfer of goods through Egypt, Israel would have to actually inspect all the aid trucks, which requires setting up a mechanism that didn't exist before.

2. Israel is not obligated under any law to provide aid to Gaza. It does so voluntarily.

3. The caveats are that aid should be transferred only if it can be ensured that said aid will not contribute to the enemy's war effort.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1716417568724955597

4. Israel's actual obligations do take precedent, including the caring for hundreds of thousands of Israelis that are currently internally displaced due to the war. So far not a single shipment of aid from Gaza has arrived in Israel despite their obligations according to your standards.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

You're a little belligerent about this considering how ridiculous your position is. The idea that I should have to provide such examples when Israel has killed over 8,000 civilians in less than a month and deprived all of Gaza of humanitarian relief

Two lies. First, there is no verifiable source for 8,000 killed in Gaza whatsoever. That number comes from Hamas, whose only verifiable statements were found to inflate numbers by an entire order of magnitude - from 500 in the Al Ahli hospital which turned out to be around 30, to Jabalia where 400 went down to 47. Hamas also claims that all of these are civilians whereas statistics from prior operations show that only a small percentage of deceased Palestinians are civilians. In 2021 Operation Guardian of the Walls, 78% of killed were terrorists.

Second, there is no evidence of Israel blocking any form of aid. Can you provide evidence to the specific aid that was blocked?

and when the director of the UN Human Rights Office in New York has resigned in protest of the UN's inaction in the face of what he sees as "textbook genocide" in Gaza

The assertion that not Hamas, but Israel, commits genocide in Gaza, is textbook antisemitism. The UNHRC is a despicable organization in service of the worst human rights offenders. He has done well to resign, in shame of what the UNHRC has become.

I very much doubt that any evidence of such would be regarded by you as legitimate.

Give an argument, explain your guiding principle, and do so logically, and I will regard it as legitimate. I have requested evidence, citation, and explanation multiple times before and you have refused time and time again. Therefore I have nothing to ponder on. If I am not presented with a logical argument, I can only urge you to make one.

Nevertheless, knock yourself out. I'm sure you'll have reasons why these organizations are "anti-semitic".

Preempting denunciation is a low and ineffective strategy on those who can think independently.
HRW is not a source because it has nothing to do with the subject.
Same goes for Amnesty.
And finally, Wikipedia is not a source. It aggregates other sources, none of which are trustworthy, and Wikipedia's moderation rules are perhaps necessary due to its scale, but nullify it as an end source in itself.
Furthermore, the Wiki page only lists Hamas's war crimes, but only lists weak allegations for Israel.

If you are determined to prove that Israel has committed some unknown war crimes or has somehow violated its obligations, feel free to make a case. I repeat how a case should be made:
1. Name the grievance.
2. Provide an example.
3. Explain what you believe Israel did.
4. Explain what international law states should have happened instead.
5. Explain what Israel could do instead.

I remind that this is what war crimes look like:

Mapping the Massacres

Explore a geovisualization that depicts the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel on October 7th. It portrays the scale of impact on towns, families, and civilians. Share this map to help raise awareness about the consequences of this tragic day.

oct7map.com

This is what war criminals look like:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1719722871952478551

And this is how war criminals treat their own people before claiming the Jews did it:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720457311951499372

 

[SinisterMinister]

Two lies. First, there is no verifiable source for 8,000 killed in Gaza whatsoever. That number comes from Hamas, whose only verifiable statements were found to inflate numbers by an entire order of magnitude - from 500 in the Al Ahli hospital which turned out to be around 30, to Jabalia where 400 went down to 47. Hamas also claims that all of these are civilians whereas statistics from prior operations show that only a small percentage of deceased Palestinians are civilians. In 2021 Operation Guardian of the Walls, 78% of killed were terrorists.

Second, there is no evidence of Israel blocking any form of aid. Can you provide evidence to the specific aid that was blocked?


The assertion that not Hamas, but Israel, commits genocide in Gaza, is textbook antisemitism. The UNHRC is a despicable organization in service of the worst human rights offenders. He has done well to resign, in shame of what the UNHRC has become.


Give an argument, explain your guiding principle, and do so logically, and I will regard it as legitimate. I have requested evidence, citation, and explanation multiple times before and you have refused time and time again. Therefore I have nothing to ponder on. If I am not presented with a logical argument, I can only urge you to make one.


Preempting denunciation is a low and ineffective strategy on those who can think independently.
HRW is not a source because it has nothing to do with the subject.
Same goes for Amnesty.
And finally, Wikipedia is not a source. It aggregates other sources, none of which are trustworthy, and Wikipedia's moderation rules are perhaps necessary due to its scale, but nullify it as an end source in itself.
Furthermore, the Wiki page only lists Hamas's war crimes, but only lists weak allegations for Israel.

If you are determined to prove that Israel has committed some unknown war crimes or has somehow violated its obligations, feel free to make a case. I repeat how a case should be made:
1. Name the grievance.
2. Provide an example.
3. Explain what you believe Israel did.
4. Explain what international law states should have happened instead.
5. Explain what Israel could do instead.

I remind that this is what war crimes look like:

Mapping the Massacres

Explore a geovisualization that depicts the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel on October 7th. It portrays the scale of impact on towns, families, and civilians. Share this map to help raise awareness about the consequences of this tragic day.

oct7map.com

This is what war criminals look like:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1719722871952478551

And this is how war criminals treat their own people before claiming the Jews did it:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720457311951499372

I think at this point you have no interest in the truth of the situation, only in confirming your priors; as such continued responses by me are a waste of time. Any evidence by me will be dismissed in one way or another, as it has been already. If you are going to insist that pretty much every international human rights organization is anti-semitic in order to excuse their condemnations of Israel's behavior, it should be clear to any who read your posts that you don't have a rational approach to the situation. These are the tactics always employed by apologists for war criminals - any organizations who condemn them are not to be trusted due to their bias. I'd challenge you to find any instance of Amnesty International accusing a nation other than Israel of war crimes that you find to be inaccurate. Anyway, have a good day.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

I think at this point you have no interest in the truth of the situation, only in confirming your priors; as such continued responses by me are a waste of time. Any evidence by me will be dismissed in one way or another, as it has been already. If you are going to insist that pretty much every international human rights organization is anti-semitic in order to excuse their condemnations of Israel's behavior, it should be clear to any who read your posts that you don't have a rational approach to the situation. These are the tactics always employed by apologists for war criminals - any organizations who condemn them are not to be trusted due to their bias. I'd challenge you to find any instance of Amnesty International accusing a nation other than Israel of war crimes that you find to be inaccurate. Anyway, have a good day.

You made unfounded claims and then failed to back them up, while the burden of proof was on you. I cannot respond properly if you fail to follow even basic rules of a civil conversation. It therefore cannot be productive, and I will not engage in it further until you agree to back up your claims.

Unlike you, however, I can always either back up my claims with my own logic and ideas, or admit a mistake.

So as for your question about instances unrelated to Israel, enjoy:

Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today. Such tactics violate...

www.amnesty.org

Amnesty claimed Ukraine's fighting tactics endanger civilians. Their methodology? Anonymous testimonies. No visual evidence. No other form of evidence. Arguments are written in a void with no backing whatsoever. Failure to understand even basic realities of war. The entire thing seems to have been written by a person who has no understanding of military subjects nor consulted with any SME.

The counter to that article is fairly simple:
The war was imposed on Ukraine. It had neither the materiel nor time to form an armed force that is truly up to western standards and at scale to meet the Russian threat. Its technology, training, C2, and structure, dictate its tactics and performance.

Since 2014 and especially since 2022 when I became very attentive to the conflict, I have never observed Ukrainian tactics/policies /actions that would intentionally endanger civilians or are otherwise illegitimate.

My opinions are driven not by nationality but by my world view, my knowledge, and my moral compass. Just because you have observed me comment only on Israel since you joined, doesn't mean my views do not apply elsewhere.

So no, I'm not some Jew shilling for Israel as part of a grand lobby. I am, in fact, not even Jewish.

 

[swerve]

And finally, Wikipedia is not a source. It aggregates other sources, none of which are trustworthy,

That isn't true. Many of the sources used by Wikipedia authors are very trustworthy indeed. I've made a few minor contributions, & taken great care with my sources, & very many Wikipedia authors are equally or even more meticulous.

Wikipedia isn't monolithic. Its quality is very variable indeed. Its moderation mostly seeks to keep the quality above a minimum level, sometimes successfully. Much of it is garbage, more is useful but not great, & some is excellent.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721245666117038222

Let's not talk about whose X channel this is, but what video coming from. It is coming from one of US Liberal media, similar with NYT in nature. Are they now suddenly anti Israel or more anti semite on putting this? Are they Bias against Israel?

Or are they bias against Israel Right Wing settlers that seems used this as excuse to get rid off their Arab neighbors in West Bank? Something they are doing under "watchfull" eyes of Israel security and using weapons distributed by Israel Right wing factions.

Are this 'regulated' way on using their arm? Because they only doing force eviction? By that logic HAMAS team that conduct kidnap (as HAMAS team divide between those who attack and kill, and those who in charge to kidnap Israeli as barter trade against their members in jails), are they also consider 'regulated' way on using arm? Or is it considered 'regulated ' way because after all they are Israel citizen, while the eviction aim to Palestinian.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720890971053805864

"What Hamas do can't be justified, but what Palestinians face in occupation is also unbearable". Well this is talk from an ex President that many US liberals including those in media like NYT and CNN perhaps try to follow. An answer that need to come not just on the cost of Palestinian but also cost to Israel.

Definitely not accepting some in Israel dream for Egypt accepting Gaza Palestinian and Jordan accepting West Bank Palestinian. Pro Israel media and online forums now try to talk BS that Free Palestine movement means ethnic cleansing on Jews, while try to divert world attention that Palestinian that increasingly being cleansed from their houses. Even in area where no HAMAS fighter available.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Are this 'regulated' way on using their arm? Because they only doing force eviction? By that logic HAMAS team that conduct kidnap (as HAMAS team divide between those who attack and kill, and those who in charge to kidnap Israeli as barter trade against their members in jails), are they also consider 'regulated' way on using arm? Or is it considered 'regulated ' way because after all they are Israel citizen, while the eviction aim to Palestinian.

Right now there's not much to do about them. When the war is done and there is a change of government, we'll deal with them. For now, we can only try to mitigate some of the fallout.

"What Hamas do can't be justified, but what Palestinians face in occupation is also unbearable". Well this is talk from an ex President that many US liberals including those in media like NYT and CNN perhaps try to follow. An answer that need to come not just on the cost of Palestinian but also cost to Israel.

Israel already paid the price. It does so every day. Dozens killed in terror attacks across J&S every year, over 1,400 murdered and 240 kidnapped on October 7th. If you think there is any interest in Israel to continue occupying J&S, that's a gross misunderstanding of Israeli political culture.

Pro Israel media and online forums now try to talk BS that Free Palestine movement means ethnic cleansing on Jews

Well it certainly doesn't do them any favor when they mark Jewish businesses and homes, assault people, chant "From the river to the sea" and "gas the jews" on the streets. It also doesn't do them any good that their view is that Israel is somehow the problem and not Hamas, as well as their inherent conflict with the liberal camp that sees inter-muslim violence as a far greater issue that gets disproportionately low attention.

 

[Ananda]

When the war is done and there is a change of government, we'll deal with them. For now, we can only try to mitigate some of the fallout.

Israel defense minister saying to Palestinians in Gaza to rise up and get rid off Hamas. Then why don't Israel publics (if you state that they want to change the government) begin demanding the 'democratic' process to get rid off present government. It is afterall failing miserably providing security to Israel by grossly underestimating HAMAS.

If you think there is any interest in Israel to continue occupying J&S, that's a gross misunderstanding of Israeli political culture

Action speak louder then word. What most outside Israel see right now is continues development of settlement and practically the settlers doing their own way to evict the Arabs from their houses. Come on, face it, even now many in Israel still dream Palestinian Gaza goes to Sinai, and Palestinian West Bank goes to Jordan. That's not the sound of society that already fed up occupying Palestinian teritory.

it certainly doesn't do them any favor when they mark Jewish businesses and homes, assault people, chant "From the river to the sea" and "gas the jews" on the streets. It also doesn't do them any good that their view is that Israel is somehow the problem and not Hamas, as well as their inherent conflict with the liberal camp that sees inter-muslim violence as a far greater issue that gets disproportionately low attention.

It work both ways, as Israel singer entertained soldiers with song to take back gaza, get rid of the arab (in gaza) and bring back the israel kibbutz there. Israel in onlines X and you tube mocking Palestinians detainee, Israel doctors demanding to bomb gaza hospital.

100 Israeli doctors sign petition demanding IDF to bomb Gaza hospitals: Reports

The purported petition, whose image has been circulated on social media, is written in Hebrew. ‘No place is safe for anyone who confuses hospitals with terrorism,’ it was quoted as saying.

www.livemint.com

That's, just few example of Israeli demand Palestinian blood. So it is not surprising some in the other side also demand Israel blood. The Pro Israel saying Palestinian that draw the blood first, Pro Palestinian saying what about thousands that being kill during occupations before that.

Pro Israel demand proof, similar one happen from other side. Both mockery each sides proof. In the end all back to basic question. If Israel already paying the cost, will Israel left Palestinian land that already set by UN ?

Palestinian is too weak to demand more that the land they are set by UN. So it over exaggeration by some in Israel, that Palestinians want more land if the Israel left the teritory. They are even now too weak to demand that land that set by UN. So if Israel really want to left the Palestinian alone, they also can do that. This is already an uneven fight since 70's. Since Egypt decide not to attack Israel anymore.

One thing Obama right tough, it has to be both side that paying the costs. Israel only begin the high price costs. Palestinian already paying more then their share. Question will be whether Israel with much stronger possition want to left Palestinians to form their own independent state. Independent in real terms, not with Israel still control all entry and exit, like a guard watching open prison.

 

[swerve]

Israel defense minister saying to Palestinians in Gaza to rise up and get rid off Hamas. Then why don't Israel publics (if you state that they want to change the government) begin demanding the 'democratic' process to get rid off present government. It is afterall failing miserably providing security to Israel by grossly underestimating HAMAS....

A lot of Israelis have been doing exactly that. There were mass demonstrations, protests by reservists, etc. Half of Israel was complaining that Netanyahu & his government were trying to destroy Israeli democracy, & neglecting important matters because they were focusing on trying to cripple the Supreme Court to stop it limiting what Netanyahu could do.

That's mostly been suspended since October 7th, but Israelis have been complaining that Netanyahu's actions had weakened Israeli preparedness for attacks by Hamas, & he has some blame for the deaths of October 7th.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Israel defense minister saying to Palestinians in Gaza to rise up and get rid off Hamas. Then why don't Israel publics (if you state that they want to change the government) begin demanding the 'democratic' process to get rid off present government. It is afterall failing miserably providing security to Israel by grossly underestimating HAMAS

I reccomend to formulate your questions as questions, not assertions. Source on protests:

Hundreds of thousands join nationwide protests, with key overhaul law about to pass

200,000 rally in Tel Aviv ahead of planned 'week of paralysis,' with coalition set to pass law to take control of judicial appointments; 44 held, water cannon used to clear highway

www.timesofisrael.com

I am one of these protesters. I have attended most protests every saturday and very much intend on attending once they resume.

Action speak louder then word. What most outside Israel see right now is continues development of settlement and practically the settlers doing their own way to evict the Arabs from their houses. Come on, face it, even now many in Israel still dream Palestinian Gaza goes to Sinai, and Palestinian West Bank goes to Jordan. That's not the sound of society that already fed up occupying Palestinian teritory.

Yes, but words in some media speak louder than actions none sees.
If my car breaks down in the middle of the road, then that would be the reason why I'll come to work late and sweaty, not because I enjoy standing under the sun for hours.

Yes, Israel does not want to continue occupying the J&S region. Yes, there is a public majority that would rather see some arrangement in which the IDF is no longer there.
But that is where the Israeli world view separates from the western world view - Majority of israelis believe that neglecting security is not going to result in improved security. To the contrary. That is why it is so difficult to convey Israel's narrative to the western public.
So where the western public sees viability for a unilateral move, Israelis don't.
A unilateral withdrawal is what ultimately led to the current situation in Gaza. Unilaterally withdrawing from J&S is therefore, judging by this experience, setting them up for another Gaza situation, but more dangerous and in which Israel will be forced into even more aggressive reaction to every attack.

Regarding what every Israeli thinks - yes, most Israelis would rather the Palestinians were just copy pasted into some neighboring Arab country so we'd be left in peace to focus on daily lives and not on what new bomb shelter to buy or whether there are protected areas in schools and work places. But eventually we all vote for and choose people to lead us with cooler minds, and value most those who think rationally and cool-headedly in such times. As you said - actions speak louder than words.

It work both ways, as Israel singer entertained soldiers with song to take back gaza, get rid of the arab (in gaza) and bring back the israel kibbutz there. Israel in onlines X and you tube mocking Palestinians detainee, Israel doctors demanding to bomb gaza hospital.

You brought up the subject and asked why they are considered antisemitic. I answered. So why are you shifting the goalposts?

That's, just few example of Israeli demand Palestinian blood. So it is not surprising some in the other side also demand Israel blood.

Demanding blood after suffering an act of genocide is a rational human response. Subsequently choosing representation by and supporting rational leadership - is the irrational, and one that eventually draws on core values to overcome basic emotions.
It is the same response as observing a crime, wanting to physically hurt or kill the criminal, and then instead calling police to handle the situation professionally. It is also the same culture that eventually puts in key positions people who manage to act rationally in difficult situations.

Demanding blood after committing an act of genocide is an irrational human response driven by hate, and which continues to let emotions overcome rational thought. What sane person would choose to murder someone? But even an insane murderer would hardly use the first murder to rationalize the second one.

One can observe the difference between protests in support for either side. There were no recorded incidents of violence by protesters during protests for Israel. But there are hardly any pro(anti)-Palestine protests that aren't violent. In some places, antisemitic crimes have spiked by thousands of percents. Meanwhile, no uptick in islamophobic violence.
Just recently, a man was murdered by Hamas sympathizers simply for being Jewish.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721874386255216975

Pro Israel demand proof, similar one happen from other side. Both mockery each sides proof.

It is physically impossible to draw moral equivalence between the decision to torture, rape, mutilate, and then burn alive and murder over 1,400 men, women, elderly, children, and even babies, and the decision to respond by eliminating the perpetrators.

If Israel already paying the cost, will Israel left Palestinian land that already set by UN ?

Israel accepted the UN partition plan in 1947. It continued to accept land-for-peace proposals until the late 2000's. There are almost exactly as many Arab refusals as there are cases of Israeli acceptance, minus eventually peace with Jordan and Egypt. The Arab nations and Palestinians have lost exactly how many wars as they started. There are consequences to starting wars, and there are consequences to losing them. The consequences until before 2014 led Israelis to be split on whether peace with Palestinians is even viable. In 2014 that shifted and the Israeli public began to believe that peace is only viable with Palestinians of the J&S region, while Gaza is a lost cause. And after October 7th, the entire Jewish public of Israel and much of the Arab public, believe there can be no peace with the Palestinians anywhere.

So principally and practically, Israel accepted. Every time it accepted, it was invaded. The Palestinians missed their opportunity and alienated Israelis far too much. If the Arab nations want peace, they can have some.

Palestinian is too weak to demand more that the land they are set by UN. So it over exaggeration by some in Israel, that Palestinians want more land if the Israel left the teritory. They are even now too weak to demand that land that set by UN. So if Israel really want to left the Palestinian alone, they also can do that. This is already an uneven fight since 70's. Since Egypt decide not to attack Israel anymore.

So Israel should concede defeat and allow those who massacred it, to be given land that Israel did not even want in the first place, just because they lost too many times and need a break? Sorry but that's not how the world works. You demand something that no nation would ever agree on doing.

One thing Obama right tough, it has to be both side that paying the costs. Israel only begin the high price costs. Palestinian already paying more then their share. Question will be whether Israel with much stronger possition want to left Palestinians to form their own independent state. Independent in real terms, not with Israel still control all entry and exit, like a guard watching open prison.

So it's a question of numbers. How many dead Jews does it take for people to stop demanding that Israel give up lands?

 

[Ananda]

I reccomend to formulate your questions as questions, not assertions.

Because it is not assertions, as it is more toward sarcasm. Israel official want Palestinian rise up to topple trouble rulers. Then Israel also should rise up to topple their own trouble administration. At least Israel public can do that without sheeding blood, unlike the Palestinian (if they want to rise up).

brought up the subject and asked why they are considered antisemitic. I answered. So why are you shifting the goalposts?

No it is not shifting goalposts. It is reality. Israel always put protest against them as antisemitic. While part of their society doing something with Arabs. Anti Israel is not the same as Anti Semitic, that's also reality, when Pro Israel try to shift Free Palestine movement as anti Semitic. There's no violence against Arabs and Muslims in Israel? Are you really serious or try to shift blaming game again.

Israel try to sell to the world victim card for too long, while try to shift what they have done to Palestinian. It is again only creating circle of hate, that prolonging this 75+years problem.

Israel should concede defeat and allow those who massacred it, to be given land that Israel did not even want in the first place, just because they lost too many times and need a break? Sorry but that's not how the world works. You demand something that no nation would ever agree on doing.

What defeat? What land? The land is not Israel in the beginning. Technically it is Jordan teritory (West Bank) and Egypt teritory (Gaza) that Israel occupied after 67. All your talk just prove one thing, like most Israel society, you don't accept you are occupier on other people land.

Egypt and Jordan relinquish their claim to the West Bank and Gaza, but they are relinquish it to Palestinian and not Israel. This is the problem, because Israel in position of Power, even relinquish occupied land being consider by Israel society as giving up the landland and defeat.

physically impossible to draw moral equivalence between the decision to torture, rape, mutilate, and then burn alive and murder over 1,400 men, women, elderly, children, and even babies, and the decision to respond by eliminating the perpetrators.

How about what Palestinian have suffered before that Hamas attack. How many thousands Palestinian has die, torture and rape before ? Or are you going to call it as unproven accusations?This is something that I do agree with Obama in the video. "What Hamas done can't be justified, but what Palestinian face in the occupation is also unbearable".

Then again if you can't accept what Israel done so far as "occupation", then off course you will only want to see what Hamas done, and not what that cause it.

Regarding what every Israeli thinks - yes, most Israelis would rather the Palestinians were just copy pasted into some neighboring Arab country so we'd be left in peace to focus on daily lives and not on what new bomb shelter to buy or whether there are protected areas in schools and work places.

Yes, hoping the world will accepting Palestinian ethic cleansing is the hope. Turn out that more and more International opinion, even outside Arab and Global South doesn't see that way. Cooler heads? Is Netanyahu administration cooler heads that your Israel society choose?

It is always back to the question will you (Israel) going to accept two state solution or one state solution. If two state then leave all West Bank back to 67 border. You can wall and build 1km ditch on the border, but give full independence to them. Or if you don't want to, talking about Israel security if West Bank gone, then accept them as part of your society.

One thing for sure the map below shown Israel has problem to give back even what they agree in Oslo accord. There's enough talk even in Israel media that Netanyahu prompt up HAMAS existence to counter Fatah PA. I don't need to put it here, as it is already well circulate.

So you don't want two state, but can't ship Palestinian toward Jordan and Egypt. Then it is back to absorbing them to your state. If not, the cycle will return after this, can be next year, next five, next decade, but it will be back, as long as no solution given.

Question will be, if other nations that support Israel, will continue support your occupation on Palestinian. Recent protest in US even survey of the support to Palestinian shown more Gen Z in US supporting Palestinian. Something to think about for your society on your treatment toward Palestinian.

It is all back whether divorce them and gave them their own state (and nor just parch of lands as map below) or absorb them. Must be either one, and not dream of sending them to Jordan and Egypt.



Or perhaps give it all back to the Turks as some Sultan Erdo Turkish dream. Let them rule again Palestine in peace for another 400 years.

400 years of peace: Palestine under Ottoman rule

Ruling the Palestine region for more than 400 years, the Ottomans fought fiercely to keep the ancient lands during World War I but eventually lost them to...

www.dailysabah.com

And that's Sarcasm.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

@Ananda You should be aware that a tone of speech, including sarcasm, is hard to deliver via text. I now understand that your comments were all sacrastic so I'll leave it there.

 

[Ananda]

Italy to send hospital ship close to Gaza coast

Italy will send a hospital ship close to the coast of Gaza to help treat victims of the Israel-Hamas conflict, Italian Defence Minister Guido Crosetto said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

Indonesian Military Ready to Send Hospital Ship to Gaza, Commander Says

TNI Commander Yudo Margono said he is ready to deploy a naval hospital ship to offer medical assistance to Palestinian victims in the Gaza Strip.

en.tempo.co

Asside Italy, Indonesia also already agree to send Hospital ship to near Gaza Coast. Just like Italian Hospital Ship, Indonesian one will also post near Gaza Coast.

Not clear where Italian ones will be station, for Indonesian case it will be coordinated with Egypt. Thus more likely the ship will be station in Sinai coast near Gaza. Local media state Indonesian Navy will send the newest Hospital Ship (from three in Inventory), which will be accompany by one Corvette. The Corvette will likely one of Sigma Corvette that already (in turn) part of UN Security contingent in Lebanon.

 

[Ananda]

Israeli Minister Admits Military Is Carrying Out ‘Nakba’ Against Gaza’s Palestinians

The term refers to the mass displacement and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948, as Gaza's residents currently face expulsion from their lands or death.

www.huffpost.com

I don't know if this right wing cabinet member taking outside Netanyahu approval, or it is acknowledging (officially), that what they're aiming if part of ethic cleansing operation. If it is the latter one, I'm just waiting from mainstream Pro Israel US Media that still saying it is Anti Semitic to accuse Israel doing ethnic cleansing.

Israel seeking to justify what would amount to 'ethnic cleansing': UN expert

UN, member states must intensify efforts to mediate cease-fire before 'a point of no return' reached, says Francesca Albanese - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Why Israel wants to erase context and history in the war on Gaza

The dehistoricisation of what is happening helps Israel pursue genocidal policies in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

Now let's see how Israel going to sell this in US and West. At least some Republican candidate are openly support Israel to do Ethnic Cleansing in the name of security.

 

[Rob c]

This is the sticking point to any peaceful resolution in the region between the waring parties. both sides have significant factions in their leadership, who would like to ethnically cleans the other side from the region. The ongoing indoctrination these groups use only serves to teach the younger generations to have them have the same outlook. Both sides can look back into the past and feel justified in their stand, however to hang on to the pasted to strongly only makes it almost impossible to move to peaceful tomorrow.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

If I were to believe every politician, I'd believe every nation is simultaneously the most depressing dystopia and the next to colonize Mars.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Launch footage of the Arrow 2 system in response to ballistic missile launches from Yemen.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1723979183536124274

 

[Meriv90]

This is the sticking point to any peaceful resolution in the region between the waring parties. both sides have significant factions in their leadership, who would like to ethnically cleans the other side from the region. The ongoing indoctrination these groups use only serves to teach the younger generations to have them have the same outlook. Both sides can look back into the past and feel justified in their stand, however to hang on to the pasted to strongly only makes it almost impossible to move to peaceful tomorrow.

I don't even say completely clean the other side, consider Netayathu calling Hamas an "asset", and viceversa.

If they clean the other side they wont have any violence to ride on to grip the power.

I lost any faith when Rabin was killed, and his murder instigator is now at the power.